Venom Or Carnage

That's true, but most of the time if the bad guy is stronger than the good guy in comics the good guys use their smarts to beat the bad guuys. Spider-man is a good example. He never defeated Venom with his bare hands without help, tricks, planning etc. and he fought Venom more times than Venom fought Carnage, still Venom has at least 3 victories (if we do not count several fights per issue) over Carnage who only won once and one stalemate. And im only talking about fair 1 on 1 fights without help from others, sonic guns etc.

Savage alliance - Carnage
Maximum Carnage - Venom several times (you're right, Venom had to sacrifice himself in the end, but that can be easilly explained by the fact that he was already worn out after the hours of torture and hours of fighting so wanted to finish it quickly, but he clearly was winning every fight they had, even ripped Carnage's face off)
Trial - Venom twice
Unleashed - stalemate (even though Carnage had an advantage over Venom, he had an experience fightin in net while Venom tried it for the first time, he said that himself)
Venom vs Carnage - Venom. At first Brock tried to reason with him but later overpowered him in the underground.

I really think that the upgrade he got during the run counts, i mean look at Scorpion-Venom, he may be a loser but ive never seen Venom grow size of a building until the upgrade. Now he does it all the time.

Well done! You really know your stuff
Maybe your right, maybe I'm just a stubborn Carnage fan who wont let his first appearances go. Maybe Venom is stronger now and that's why Carnage turned into kind of a lame character., and that's why only us die hards really cared when they killed him off. Maybe what I should be saying is ... In order for Carnage to work, he needs to be stronger than Venom, because he needs to pose a threat. hhmmm I've heard in a few different places that Carnage is making his return maybe they will give him some sort of power boost from being in space or whatever! Then they can make some good Venom/Carnage comics!!! The Venom vs Carnage comic blew my mind, the art was fantastic! We need more stuff like that in the future (I know the story was full of holes, but it was still a good read)

Yeah, I liked it too. And you're making good points, Carnage originally was meant to be a stronger more evil version of Venom, that's the problem, Venom in time proved that he can fight Carnage while Carnage didnt get an proper character development and simply being a more evil version of a another character doesnt cut it. If they ever bring him back (and im sure they will, its been stated in secret war that there's a possibility that the symbiote Sentry ripped in two was hostless, so Cassidy is stil around somehwere) writers should develop his character a bit further. Maybe give him some kind of motivation other than senseless killing. I found it touching in a sick kind of way when Jackal insulted Shriek and Carnage got really pissed at him for that and wanted to to tear him to pieces.

EDIT: btw great avatar, if the Joker ever gets his hands on the symbiote the world will come to an end. 😛

Originally posted by SamZED
You're making an assumption that he had the time to heal that's why my argument is poor? SECONDS before Carnage attacked Venom collapsed on his knees while trying to throw a punch at Spider-man. He could barely stand because of the torture, let alone fight. Yet you're saying that he was in perfect shape few seconds later thus he had an advantage over Carnage who was physically fine, but a little crazier than usually?

And how is your assumption any more plausible than mine? Aside from that, I never assumed that Venom was back in prefect condition. I'm not denying that Venom was still severely weakened, only doubting. Brock clearly saw his opportunity to strike Carnage down, after Kasady was mind-raped by Deathlok's mechanism, regardless of his physical state and set out for the kill. What you're trying to do is pass off Carnage's mind-rape situation as being something that's typical of lil' ol' crazy Carnage, but as the events unfolded, it's pretty simple to see that Carnage was truly suffering from what Deathlok blasted him with and that it attributed to him performing poorly against Venom. You're clearly denying that fact.

Originally posted by SamZED
Why is it even a question?

Because Carnage is stronger than Venom.

Originally posted by SamZED
Carnage pretty much confirmed that Venom's his superior. And that was before the upgrade.

Remember, Carnage is crazy, right? And the upgrades... well... none of the writers seem to be taking those into account anymore these days. Infact, I don't recall them ever taking them into account.

Originally posted by Phoenix2001
And how is your assumption any more plausible than mine? Aside from that, I never assumed that Venom was back in prefect condition. I'm not denying that Venom was still severely weakened, only doubting. Brock clearly saw his opportunity to strike Carnage down, after Kasady was mind-raped by Deathlok's mechanism, regardless of his physical state and set out for the kill. What you're trying to do is pass off Carnage's mind-rape situation as being something that's typical of lil' ol' crazy Carnage, but as the events unfolded, it's pretty simple to see that Carnage was truly suffering from what Deathlok blasted him with and that it attributed to him performing poorly against Venom. You're clearly denying that fact.

Originally posted by Phoenix2001

Because Carnage is stronger than Venom.

Originally posted by Phoenix2001

Remember, Carnage is crazy, right? And the upgrades... well... none of the writers seem to be taking those into account anymore these days. Infact, I don't recall them ever taking them into account.

a long while back i had a screen saver that was carnage with his hands tighly wrapped around the throats of vemon and spiderman. They were trying to escape the grasp but couldn't.

Carnage had'em one on each hand.

badass.

I think at first Carnage was stronger. But by the end of his run, Venom ended up being stronger.

Originally posted by FistOfThe North
a long while back i had a screen saver that was carnage with his hands tighly wrapped around the throats of vemon and spiderman. They were trying to escape the grasp but couldn't.

Carnage had'em one on each hand.

badass.

Originally posted by Ptr_Grifin
I think at first Carnage was stronger. But by the end of his run, Venom ended up being stronger.

my vote for Venom

SPOILER ALERT-YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED

Originally posted by SamZED
I never denied that Carnage wasnt in his right mind, I said that myself. What YOU are ignoring is the fact that Brock's physical state more than compincates for Carnage mental problem and you're trying to make it look like the only reason Brock was beating Carnage is because he had an unfair advantage over him. And my assumption is more plausable than yours because it's backed up with the fact that Brock was too weak to stand let alone fight when Carnage appeared, while your assumption is disproved by Carnage himself who even though was talking to himself, rembering stuff etc confirmed that "my mind may be freaking out on me Brock but im still stronger and faster than you" and attacked only to get punched in the face and at THE TIME it was clear that his mental problems in no way effected his ability to fight, but he got beaten any way. Yet you keep insisting that that's the only reason Brock was winning because you're to used to people on the forum repeating "Carnage-is-stronger-than-Spider-and-Venom-combined" over and over again and refuse to let it go even though everything suggests that its a false assumption. 😬 And why do you act like Maximum Carnage is the only example of Venom beating Carnage? In unleashed it was a stalemate even though Carnage had an advantage over Venom. In Venom vs Carnage Brock overpowered him. In trial he took him down TWICE without much efforts even though both Spider-man and Daredevil were getting in the way. Heck even Venom's random showings against other characters put him above Carnage. Yet you keep insisting that Carnage is stronger because you're too used to that thought.

Well, I suppose this depends on our own interpretations of the events taking place, so the claim that your opinion is backed up by more is somewhat premature. On your quote about Carnage saying he's stronger and faster than Venom, I would say that, yes, Carnage is correct in stating this, but I believe he's saying this to more or less alter his state of mind while going through his psychological crisis. He didn't get smacked around like a rag doll for someone of his attributes for no reason, especially in that scene where his haunting memories were blatantly taking their toll on him. To me, the 14th Maximum Carnage issue does little to enforce the idea Venom is still injured unlike Carnage who's past seems to be coming back in full and causing a severe mental breakdown even for his likes. I wouldn't say Venom had an "unfair advantage", but still had an advantage none the less.

Originally posted by SamZED
[BBased on what? 20 year old "savage alliance" book and people on the forum who read it but didnt bother to read other fights so they keep repeating the same thing over and over again? Their 1 on 1 fights as well as Carnage's own words beg to differ. [/B]

Uh, Yeah. Savage Alliance establishes a foundation of attributes and qualities about Carnage that later writers should have staid consistent with, but unfortunately did not. One of the first concepts about Carnage that was demonstrated was that he is stronger than Venom and Spider-Man. Use the uber excuse if you want, but the "uberism" is inconsistent with other first appearances. For example, Venom's first appearance wasn't nearly as dominating and didn't expand through multiple issues. In fact, Venom was defeated twice in his debut, albeit due to Spider-Man already having the sonic rifle and being partially prepared, but the uberism here seems to absent, and the issue is doing what it suppose to do, "Establish the foundations of a new arriving character." Conflicts of Venom and Carnage that occur in Carnage Unleashed and Venom on Trial are not examples of Venom being as strong or stronger than Carnage but an example of poor consistency between writers. Other examples of this are Spider-Man beating Scorpion-Venom and Peter and Ben Reailly knocking Carnage out with one flying jump kick from each.

Originally posted by SamZED
Carnage is crazy, but I dont see how it has anything to do with him confirming that Venom's his superior. And you cant blame him concidering that Venom was the one who put him in prison after givving him a beating and later without any efforts murdered the guards that were keeping Carnage in it. As for upgrades Venom absorbing Carnage symbiote might've been forgotten. But him absorbing his clone wasnt. After that book Spider-man confirmed that Venom seems stronger than ever, and Scorpion-Venom when gets pissed off grows size of a building, an ability Venom had never displayed before.

There's no telling if Carnage is actually serious about this or just plain crazy and just saying it when considering his type of psychology. Carnage being sent to prison and Venom wiping out the guards is hardly evident of Venom's superiority and there doesn't seem to be anything else to actually confirm Venom is his superior, especially considering that it has already been laid out that Carnage is the superior. Scorpion-Venom being able to increase his size is just the depiction of the artist and doesn't seem to have anymore effect on his strength than being at a normal size. From artist to artist, Venom has always been depicted as taking the size of its host to being monstrously big, so Scorpion-Venom's change of size is nothing new. As far as the symbiote absorptions go, I'm just not going to comment on because it just seems futile at this point since Venom has never actually gone up against anyone to really test if his abilities were upgraded or not since absorbing the symbiotes.

Um.. ok.. I dunno why you desided to bump the discussion, been so long ago I dont even remember what I myself was talking about, so I hope you dont mind if I do not quote every passage. But here's the thing. In Savage Alliance Carnage didn't BEAT them both. They weren't killed or even koed, all he did was toss Spider-man with one hand while tossing Venom with another and run away, that's where the whole "Carnage > Venom + Spider-man" nonsense was born. Heck ive seen Spider-man do the EXACT same thing to two symbiotes who are each stronger than him, that doesn't really mean he's stronger than both of them.
2) In Maximum Carnage it's not just that Venom had an unfair advantage, it's a big question if he had any at all. The guy collapsed on his knees UNABLE to throw a punch at his arch enemy seconds before Carnage's appearance. He was exausted. While Carnage's head cleared when he talked about being stronger and faster, yet t didn't help him. All things concidered there are several reasons why I believe Venom > Carnage. No evidence that Venom is superior? Lets once again look at ALL their confrontations.

1) Savage alliance: Carnage holds his own against both Spider and Venom. He does good. The "C > V + S" myth is born.
2) Maximum Carnage: a) thoughout the story Carnage several times refuses to fight Venom one on one.
b) Venom after hours (days?) of torture breaks free and escapes after punching Carnage in the face and mocking him.
c) Venom (who is barely standing) fights Carnage (whose mind if freaking on him) Venom wins several confrontations.
3) Unleashed: They stalemate each other despite the obvious advantage Carnage has during the fight.
4) Venom vs Carnage: Venom physically overpowers Carnage in a 1 on 1 fight.
5) Trial: Venom beats Carnage TWICE and with little efforts there is despite Spider-man's interference who was trying to save Carnage from Brock.
and finally 6) Triumphant: Venom rips Carnage's symbiote off after getting Carnage to admit that Brock is his superior.

Overall score is - Carnage one good showing in his firt appearance against like 5 examples where Brock beat him in a fight and was clearly shown to be Carnage's superior. Yet, the whole "Carnage > Venom + Spider" thing's become so popular noone really pays atention to the actual fights. Also Venom-Brock's never displayed the ability to grow size of a small building untill the upgrade. Sometimes he was drawn bigger tha normal by various artists, that's true. But he never displayed the ability to increase his mass in the same issue. After his upgrade his TOOTH was bigger than Spider-man's hand. I'll try to find scans.

Originally posted by SamZED
Um.. ok.. I dunno why you desided to bump the discussion, been so long ago I dont even remember what I myself was talking about, so I hope you dont mind if I do not quote every passage.

I apologize for this. Sometimes I have to take extended absences and I, myself, will forget where I last left off, so I have to backtrack my posts.

Originally posted by SamZED
But here's the thing. In Savage Alliance Carnage didn't BEAT them both. They weren't killed or even koed, all he did was toss Spider-man with one hand while tossing Venom with another and run away, that's where the whole "Carnage > Venom + Spider-man" nonsense was born.

It doesn't end there. The "nonsense" is further expanded on when the three face off again and Carnage holds his own against Spider-Man and Venom with relative ease.

Originally posted by SamZED
Heck ive seen Spider-man do the EXACT same thing to two symbiotes who are each stronger than him, that doesn't really mean he's stronger than both of them.

Of course these two hosts in the symbiotes didn't know what to expect when they acquired them. Cletus didn't know what to expect either when he acquired Carnage, but he didn't care; he was psychotic. He fell fully into the symbiote gig, so this can explain why Cletus so quickly became a dangerous enemy.

Originally posted by SamZED
2) In Maximum Carnage it's not just that Venom had an unfair advantage, it's a big question if he had any at all. The guy collapsed on his knees UNABLE to throw a punch at his arch enemy seconds before Carnage's appearance. He was exausted.

But he still threw a punch, regardless of his fatigue; Venom may not have been as bad off as it seemed. You have to understand that after this brief confrontation from the beginning of the issue, time was being roughly compressed afterward, so there's no telling exactly how much time was passed from one confrontation to the next when we pass in and out from Peter's dialogues with his father and MJ, time that could be used by Venom to recover while he pursues Carnage.

Originally posted by SamZED
While Carnage's head cleared when he talked about being stronger and faster, yet t didn't help him.

There's no possible way of knowing for sure what happened here. It was a spur of the moment and is too trivial a thing to know at all if this is the case.

Originally posted by SamZED
All things concidered there are several reasons why I believe Venom > Carnage. No evidence that Venom is superior? Lets once again look at ALL their confrontations.

1) Savage alliance: Carnage holds his own against both Spider and Venom. He does good. The "C > V + S" myth is born.
2) Maximum Carnage: a) thoughout the story Carnage several times refuses to fight Venom one on one.
b) Venom after hours (days?) of torture breaks free and escapes after punching Carnage in the face and mocking him.
c) Venom (who is barely standing) fights Carnage (whose mind if freaking on him) Venom wins several confrontations.
3) Unleashed: They stalemate each other despite the obvious advantage Carnage has during the fight.
4) Venom vs Carnage: Venom physically overpowers Carnage in a 1 on 1 fight.
5) Trial: Venom beats Carnage TWICE and with little efforts there is despite Spider-man's interference who was trying to save Carnage from Brock.
and finally 6) Triumphant: Venom rips Carnage's symbiote off after getting Carnage to admit that Brock is his superior.

Overall score is - Carnage one good showing in his firt appearance against like 5 examples where Brock beat him in a fight and was clearly shown to be Carnage's superior. Yet, the whole "Carnage > Venom + Spider" thing's become so popular noone really pays atention to the actual fights.

Yet, after pointing all of this out, you never once reference their very last conflict in the Venom vs Carnage mini-series. How disappointing.

Originally posted by SamZED
Also Venom-Brock's never displayed the ability to grow size of a small building untill the upgrade. Sometimes he was drawn bigger tha normal by various artists, that's true. But he never displayed the ability to increase his mass in the same issue. After his upgrade his TOOTH was bigger than Spider-man's hand. I'll try to find scans.

I don't think it really matters, to be honest. The upgrade, if there really was an upgrade, is never actually demonstrated against a powerful enough opponent to show its results.

Yeah, its extended for the exactly ONE issue with Carnage HOLDING HIS OWN AGAINST both of them for a while before running away and using distractions. He didn't defeat him, didn't ko him. And again, that's the ONLY good showing Carnage has against Venom.

And there WAS no time period. Spider-man was standing near the lake, Venom appeared accusing Spider-man of stealing his fight from him, TRIEd to throw a punch but collapsed on his knees unable to stand, let alone fight. The next instant Carnage appeared and the fight began. Venom had no time to heal at all, it more than just evens the odds.

Its not the point if they expected it or not, two symbiotes attacked Spider the exact same way Venom and Spider attacked him and got tossed aside. Hardly means anything, especially concidering that Carnage ran away afterwards.

I did mention their fight in Venom vs Carnage mini, so dont see why you're dissapointed😬 Their very last battle ended with Venom overpowering Carnage in a subway and got hi ran over by a train.

Man, im really running out of arguments, I just dont see what ELSE does it take to see that Venom is Carnage's superior. WHat exactl should happen in comix so you'd see it? Venom already beat him more than 5 times in fair 1 on 1 fights. What OTHER proofs are needed? I can bring up Venom's random showings to prove a point. Fighting Hulk, Juggernaut, She-Hulk, taking down Scarlet Spider and Scream at the same time etc. but seriosuly 90% of V vs C fights clearly show Venom as beeing the better out of two. If you dont see it just means you didn't read all of them.

Originally posted by SamZED
Yeah, its extended for the exactly ONE issue with Carnage HOLDING HIS OWN AGAINST both of them for a while before running away and using distractions. He didn't defeat him, didn't ko him. And again, that's the ONLY good showing Carnage has against Venom.

And there WAS no time period. Spider-man was standing near the lake, Venom appeared accusing Spider-man of stealing his fight from him, TRIEd to throw a punch but collapsed on his knees unable to stand, let alone fight. The next instant Carnage appeared and the fight began. Venom had no time to heal at all, it more than just evens the odds.

Its not the point if they expected it or not, two symbiotes attacked Spider the exact same way Venom and Spider attacked him and got tossed aside. Hardly means anything, especially concidering that Carnage ran away afterwards.

I did mention their fight in Venom vs Carnage mini, so dont see why you're dissapointed😬 Their very last battle ended with Venom overpowering Carnage in a subway and got hi ran over by a train.

Man, im really running out of arguments, I just dont see what ELSE does it take to see that Venom is Carnage's superior. WHat exactl should happen in comix so you'd see it? Venom already beat him more than 5 times in fair 1 on 1 fights. What OTHER proofs are needed? I can bring up Venom's random showings to prove a point. Fighting Hulk, Juggernaut, She-Hulk, taking down Scarlet Spider and Scream at the same time etc. but seriosuly 90% of V vs C fights clearly show Venom as beeing the better out of two. If you dont see it just means you didn't read all of them.

I think now we're starting to misunderstand each other. It seems like we're both using the same words with different meanings and apparently interpreting the comics differently as well, so lets just go ahead and officially end this by agreeing to disagree. Probably would have been the best thing to do from the start I suppose.

Originally posted by Phoenix2001
I think now we're starting to misunderstand each other. It seems like we're both using the same words with different meanings and apparently interpreting the comics differently as well, so lets just go ahead and officially end this by agreeing to disagree. Probably would have been the best thing to do from the start I suppose.

Originally posted by SamZED
Agreed. Not a big fan of huge posts and replies myself, lets just agree that both symbiotes are the best and deadliest enemies Spider-man ever faced. 😄

I suppose that'll work for me.

Carnage would win in a fight but I like Venom more.

Unlike Carnage, Venom actually has depth. A motive for hating Spider-man. Carnage is just a one note character that kills, kills, kills, kills. That's it. Nothing more to him. The only reason he's so popular among youngsters is because he "looks cool" and "is brutal." I admit I used to be a huge fan when I was younger, but as I got older I realized that he's not that good a villain.

VENOM but toxin is still cool

I was just thinking. Toxin is not Venom's "grandchild". Venom ate the original Carnage before Toxin was born. After that, Cletus found a symbiote just like Carnage in the Negative Zone. And AFAIK, that one is not related to Venom in any way.