Church vs Bible?

Originally posted by SpearofDestiny
1) I would rather recieve the forgiveness of the human being I hurt, than the God I cannot see or hear. Whether or not God forgives me, would not take away the guilt I would have if I hurt another person that badly. Not in a million years.

2) I beleive in Karma. Not the "you will be reborn as a worm" karma, but the web of causation, the cycle of cause and effect (if you will) that begins with one thought, emotion, and/or action, and continues in a cycle of that same likeness.

Harboring hatred for another, will also hurt myself in the long run. I beleive that only I can change my Karma. Praying to God is a tool that I can use to push myself into changing my karma, but ulmately it is [b]my responsibility and doing that will change me.

The one thing I don't like about Christianity's idea of salvation is that once I "repent", I am alleviated of all responsibility for my wrongs. That's a cop out. [/B]

Causality is a good predictor, but doesn't always work out in my experience. It's not a bad principle, but I combine it with the knowledge of God as a just judge that will repay wrongs at judgment.

God does not alleviate our responsibilities to right our wrongs on earth to the best of our ability.

That idea of salvation is a false theology. If one is saved, but continues on sinning because of it they will be victims of God's judgment, they will not be allowed into heaven because that would be unrepentant sinning.

What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freed from sin. Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him: Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him. For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God. Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord. Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof. Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God. For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness. I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness. For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness. What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death. But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life. For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Romans 6: 1-23

Long, but it all addresses what you are talking about.

In this way we hope to earn the forgiveness

Jesus didn't say it was earned, did he?

Originally posted by Nellinator
According to Bible we are supposed to repay those we sinned against greater than we sinned against them. It's the principle of restitution. In this way we hope to earn the forgiveness of those we sinned against and spread the love of God.

Causality is a good predictor, but doesn't always work out in my experience. It's not a bad principle, but I combine it with the knowledge of God as a just judge that will repay wrongs at judgment.

God does not alleviate our responsibilities to right our wrongs on earth to the best of our ability.

That idea of salvation is a false theology. If one is saved, but continues on sinning because of it they will be victims of God's judgment, they will not be allowed into heaven because that would be unrepentant sinning.

What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freed from sin. Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him: Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him. For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God. Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord. Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof. Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God. For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness. I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness. For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness. What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death. But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life. For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Romans 6: 1-23

Long, but it all addresses what you are talking about.

So would you say it is more about following Jesus' example, as opposed to just asking him to save you ?

Because I continue to hear arguments about how "being a good person" isn't enough, and only by asking Jesus to save you, will you be "redeemed" or "become a better person" or whatever the point to salvation really is.

On that note, what is the actual point to beleiving in Jesus ?

Is it to become a better person, or to just enter Heaven ?

Originally posted by debbiejo
Earned?? I thought it was a gift not of works.

That is exactly my question. I was always told that your works mean nothing, only beleif in Jesus means anything.... 😕

The actual point of believing in Jesus is to save you from an imaginary place created by people.

Originally posted by SpearofDestiny
That is exactly my question. I was always told that your works mean nothing, only beleif in Jesus means anything.... 😕

Originally posted by debbiejo
The actual point of believing in Jesus is to save you from an imaginary place created by people.

But when I was younger I always thought that it was to follow his example, and achieve peace with others.

I didn't think Fear was the motivation, I thought it was Love. Until other religious people derailed that belief.

Originally posted by SpearofDestiny
But when I was younger I always thought that it was to follow his example, and achieve peace with others.

I didn't think Fear was the motivation, I thought it was Love. Until other religious people derailed that belief.

Originally posted by debbiejo
Earned?? I thought it was a gift not of works.

Jesus didn't say it was earned, did he?

Originally posted by SpearofDestiny
So would you say it is more about following Jesus' example, as opposed to just asking him to save you ?

Because I continue to hear arguments about how "being a good person" isn't enough, and only by asking Jesus to save you, will you be "redeemed" or "become a better person" or whatever the point to salvation really is.

On that note, what is the actual point to beleiving in Jesus ?

Is it to become a better person, or to just enter Heaven ?

We saved by grace. We perform good works because of our love of Jesus and our desire is to see all people saved by that same grace and it is also the desire of God.

"For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth."
1 Timothy 2:2-4

Believing in Jesus comes from our desire to know God, which transforms into love, which becomes our purpose.

If it's free, then are you saying all we have to do is believe and do nothing else?

Believing in Jesus comes from our desire to know God, which transforms into love, which becomes our purpose

Believing in god has little to do with being saved. It may be a tool to know Jesus to try to understand god, yet Jesus was only pointing the way though his parables.

Originally posted by debbiejo
If it's free, then are you saying all we have to do is believe and do nothing else?

Believing in god has little to do with being saved. It may be a tool to know Jesus to try to understand god, yet Jesus was only pointing the way though his parables.

Except the part where Jesus says, "I am the way". Pretty clear.

Originally posted by Nellinator
Wow, why don't you read it all in context. We earn the forgiveness of people, not God. God's grace is a free gift.

It can't be free when you have to earn it. That's a contradiction.

Originally posted by Nellinator
We saved by grace. We perform good works because of our love of Jesus and our desire is to see all people saved by that same grace and it is also the desire of God.

Grace is "doing God's work" ? ....right ?

-So if you do loving things for other people, without beleiving in God, what you do call that ?

-What if I am a man or woman in a wheel chair, and can't really do much ? What do I do to enter Heaven ?

-What about someone in a coma ? What if someone does not repent before hitting a coma, and then dies much later? Never having the chance to "repent" before death. What happens ?

-What about someone who has split personality, or someone who is mentally impaired ? How does this person earn salvation ?

Originally posted by Nellinator
"For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth."
1 Timothy 2:2-4

What about women ?

Originally posted by Nellinator
Believing in Jesus comes from our desire to know God, which transforms into love, which becomes our purpose.

That sounds beautiful, but you can be filled with Love without knowing about God or Jesus. It's always been that way, and can always be that way.

Then what ? What becomes God's purpose if he is not required to have and give love ?

Originally posted by Nellinator
No. If we continue sinning, we are rejecting grace or have not accepted it yet.

Except the part where Jesus says, "I am the way". Pretty clear.

Jesus is pointing the way though his knowledge and teachings.

Originally posted by SpearofDestiny
It can't be free when you have to [b]earn it. That's a contradiction.

Grace is "doing God's work" ? ....right ?

-So if you do loving things for other people, without beleiving in God, what you do call that ?

-What if I am a man or woman in a wheel chair, and can't really do much ? What do I do to enter Heaven ?

-What about someone in a coma ? What if someone does not repent before hitting a coma, and then dies much later? Never having the chance to "repent" before death. What happens ?

-What about someone who has split personality, or someone who is mentally impaired ? How does this person earn salvation ?

What about women ?

That sounds beautiful, but you can be filled with Love without knowing about God or Jesus. It's always been that way, and can always be that way.

Then what ? What becomes God's purpose if he is not required to have and give love ? [/B]

No, grace is forgiveness for those willing to accept it.

There are many things that one can do in a wheelchair, but I think you are getting at something else, to which the answer would be that God judges by intentions, our heart, not by what we can and cannot physically do.

Basically the Bible says that if you are not responsible for your sin, then you will be shown mercy.

That servant who knows his master's will and does not get ready or does not do what his master wants will be beaten with many blows. But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows. From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked (Luke 12:47-48 NIV).

If I had not come and spoken to them, they would not be guilty of sin. Now, however, they have no excuse for their sin (John 15:22 NIV).

Even though I was once a blasphemer and a persecutor and a violent man, I was shown mercy because I acted in ignorance and unbelief (1 Timothy 1:13 NIV).

The person in the coma will face judgment. Perhaps they will be forgiven, perhaps not. I'm not the judge to be telling you.

The Greek word used is "anthropos" which simply refers to any member of the genus Homo which includes women. In the translation and even in current popular language man can refer to all of humanity.

I'm talking about the love of God here, not love for other people, which is also important.

Originally posted by Nellinator
Free = available to any who want it. Presents at Christmas are free, but you have to open them first. It's the same principle.

I think that is a bad analogy. Actually a terrible one.

Doing works in God's name takes a hell of a lot more effort than opening the wrapping paper of a gift.

Secondly, if you have to earn something, than it is not free. Free does not mean available to all. Something can be only available to one person, and still be free...like a Christmas present, again.

Free means you do not have to pay for it, or earn it, only ask for it. Ask and Recieve. Nothing in between. No conditions, no payment. That's what Free means.

Either it is earned, or it is free. JIA seems to teach that it is free, while you seem to argue that it is earned. Either way is fine, but it can't be both.

Originally posted by Nellinator
No, grace is forgiveness for those willing to accept it.

But what good is it for ? IS the only Good to enter Heaven ?

Originally posted by Nellinator
There are many things that one can do in a wheelchair, but I think you are getting at something else, to which the answer would be that God judges by intentions, our heart, not by what we can and cannot physically do.

That is true, I used a bad example.

What I meant was some people have circumstances which may not allow them to help others. What happens to them ?

Originally posted by Nellinator
Basically the Bible says that if you are not responsible for your sin, then you will be shown mercy.

So this is in regard to mental illness...can you show me the verse ?

Originally posted by Nellinator
That servant who knows his master's will and does not get ready or does not do what his master wants will be beaten with many blows. But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows. From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked (Luke 12:47-48 NIV).

It still says the person in ignorance (or disability) will be punished.

Originally posted by Nellinator
If I had not come and spoken to them, they would not be guilty of sin. Now, however, they have no excuse for their sin (John 15:22 NIV).

But what about before Christ's incarnation on Earth ? Did they have excuses before ?

Originally posted by Nellinator
Even though I was once a blasphemer and a persecutor and a violent man, I was shown mercy because I acted in ignorance and unbelief (1 Timothy 1:13 NIV).

Most violence occurs in ignorance though....

Originally posted by Nellinator
The person in the coma will face judgment. Perhaps they will be forgiven, perhaps not. I'm not the judge to be telling you.

I know you don't know the answer. I was just challenging you to think about that one.

Originally posted by Nellinator
The Greek word used is "anthropos" which simply refers to any member of the genus Homo which includes women. In the translation and even in current popular language man can refer to all of humanity.

That is true, my mistake.

Originally posted by Nellinator
I'm talking about the love of God here, not love for other people, which is also important.

But you see, that's my point....

To me, the Love for other people is far more important than Love for God. God doesn't need anything from you. Other people do, however.

The love I feel from another person is far more effective, since I know for a fact it's there (or alteast feel it enough).

The Love I feel "from God" could be nothing more than my own delusion supplied by my own ego and power of suggestion. Even if that is not the case, God is supposed to love me. If he is Love embodied, than he is supposed to Love me no matter what.

Love between people is far more precious to me. It takes a lot for a person to put aside thier own ego, comfort, and security to put me before them. It costs a person a lot more to love me, especially If I give them a hard time.

Do not get me wrong...

I am not an Atheist. I pray every day. But my concept of God differs from your own. I do not define God through gender (male or female), or give it a persona. To me God is every mother and father, every human and animal, every plant, the supreme mind. God is the Universe...that is what I beleive. God is far more grand than something we can define with our limitted senses and knowledge.

I beleive that the Universe is God, and that God exists through us. The universe becomes self aware through concious life. I beleive that the concious mind, through influence, biases, and culture can become detached from God. I beleive the subconcious mind is where we might find this God, since the subconcious mind is beleived to be the universal mind-collective knowledge.

Long story, which I will not preach to you about, since you have your own ideas. But I do not necessarily reject your intepretation of God. I just think you limit God through your definitions.

I beleive "Yahweh" is one face that God has. I also beleive the God and Goddess of Wicca is another face. And so on, and so on.

But to me, what God is or isn't does not matter.

The way we treat each other matters. More than anything. Desire to go to Heaven is not a genuine reason to help other people. The genuine desire to see others safe and happy is the true altruism.

I do not help another because I think I will go to Heaven, or because I think I will be rewarded in karma. Both those reasons are selfish and based on fear.

I help others, because I hate to see others suffer. It breaks my heart. I imagine what if this homeless or sick person was my mother or father ? Wouldn't I want another to help them ?

Well, that is my promise to myself and others. I help because I do not want to see others suffer. And I can only do my part.

I'm sure you want to see others happy too, but what I am trying to say is that you do not need "God" to do so. All you need is peace with yourself, and to learn how to love others unconditionally.

If God is your answer, and this Faith is your method to doing so, than so be it. I wish you luck with it.

Originally posted by SpearofDestiny
I think that is a bad analogy. Actually a terrible one.

Doing works in God's name takes a hell of a lot more effort than opening the wrapping paper of a gift.

Secondly, if you have to [b]earn something, than it is not free. Free does not mean available to all. Something can be only available to one person, and still be free...like a Christmas present, again.

Free means you do not have to pay for it, or earn it, only ask for it. Ask and Recieve. Nothing in between. No conditions, no payment. That's what Free means.

Either it is earned, or it is free. JIA seems to teach that it is free, while you seem to argue that it is earned. Either way is fine, but it can't be both.

But what good is it for ? IS the only Good to enter Heaven ?

That is true, I used a bad example.

What I meant was some people have circumstances which may not allow them to help others. What happens to them ?

So this is in regard to mental illness...can you show me the verse ?

It still says the person in ignorance (or disability) will be punished.

But what about before Christ's incarnation on Earth ? Did they have excuses before ?

Most violence occurs in ignorance though....

I know you don't know the answer. I was just challenging you to think about that one.

That is true, my mistake.

But you see, that's my point....

To me, the Love for other people is far more important than Love for God. God doesn't need anything from you. Other people do, however.

The love I feel from another person is far more effective, since I know for a fact it's there (or alteast feel it enough).

The Love I feel "from God" could be nothing more than my own delusion supplied by my own ego and power of suggestion. Even if that is not the case, God is supposed to love me. If he is Love embodied, than he is supposed to Love me no matter what.

Love between people is far more precious to me. It takes a lot for a person to put aside thier own ego, comfort, and security to put me before them. It costs a person a lot more to love me, especially If I give them a hard time.

Do not get me wrong...

I am not an Atheist. I pray every day. But my concept of God differs from your own. I do not define God through gender (male or female), or give it a persona. To me God is every mother and father, every human and animal, every plant, the supreme mind. God is the Universe...that is what I beleive. God is far more grand than something we can define with our limitted senses and knowledge.

I beleive that the Universe is God, and that God exists through us. The universe becomes self aware through concious life. I beleive that the concious mind, through influence, biases, and culture can become detached from God. I beleive the subconcious mind is where we might find this God, since the subconcious mind is beleived to be the universal mind-collective knowledge.

Long story, which I will not preach to you about, since you have your own ideas. But I do not necessarily reject your intepretation of God. I just think you limit God through your definitions.

I beleive "Yahweh" is one face that God has. I also beleive the God and Goddess of Wicca is another face. And so on, and so on.

But to me, what God is or isn't does not matter.

The way we treat each other matters. More than anything. Desire to go to Heaven is not a genuine reason to help other people. The genuine desire to see others safe and happy is the true altruism.

I do not help another because I think I will go to Heaven, or because I think I will be rewarded in karma. Both those reasons are selfish and based on fear.

I help others, because I hate to see others suffer. It breaks my heart. I imagine what if this homeless or sick person was my mother or father ? Wouldn't I want another to help them ?

Well, that is my promise to myself and others. I help because I do not want to see others suffer. And I can only do my part.

I'm sure you want to see others happy too, but what I am trying to say is that you do not need "God" to do so. All you need is peace with yourself, and to learn how to love others unconditionally.

If God is your answer, and this Faith is your method to doing so, than so be it. I wish you luck with it. [/B]

No it's not only to enter heaven because it isn't about us. There are other reasons:
1) To glorify God through whom we are saved.
2) To be conformed to the image of God and His will for us.
3) As a result of 2 we bring others to Christ because both God and ourselves wish to see all people in paradise.

It's hard to say what happens to them. The flesh and the spirit are two different things. How God judges is not something I can possibly know. This depends on the extent of the disability. If one has the faculty to want to help, but simply cannot I believe they will judged for the well-meaning heart. An old proverb says a kind word is all some people need and if that is the best that person can do, then it is greater to God than an able person doing something greater in the eyes of men, but relatively easier. It reminds of something Jesus said...

Mark 12:41-44
“Jesus sat down opposite the place where the offerings were put and watched the crowd putting their money into the temple treasury. Many rich people threw in large amounts. But a poor widow came and put in two very small copper coins,worth only a fraction of a penny.
Calling his disciples to him, Jesus said, "I tell you the truth, this poor widow has put more into the treasury than all the others. They all gave out of their wealth; but she, out of her poverty, put in everything-all she had to live on.”

I really like that passage.

Given my line of work I can tell you that mental illness incorporates way to much for me to give you a satisfactory answer. If you could be more specific as to what you are getting at, that would be great.

It also, specifically states that they must be doing something deserving punishment. A bushman in Africa who had never heard of Jesus killing someone would still receive punishment. A lady in East Asia who weaves baskets and feeds the hungry without knowing of Jesus will not be punished for that. A mute, deaf and blind child in North America who just eats and is aided his whole life without ever doing anything to hurt anyone will not be punished. Do you get the drift?

They were under a different covenant, so those that knew of the God of Israel were judged according to the prior covenant which basically entailed morality and obedience to God. Prophets and more divine interference would have been how they would understand God's will.

Wrongs will be punished by God still, however, the sins of Christians are punished more severely.

It's not so much that I don't know, but more of it depending on the circumstances.

And this is where we disagree. I love God with all my heart, soul, mind and strength. My love for others is unconditional, but my love of God will always supersede that.

God does love you no matter what. But He wants you to love Him back and be the way he intended you to be.

I cannot limit God because His ways are not our ways, but I can tell you (or try to) by what He has given to us. God is in everything, and everything is His creation. He has no gender (ironic statement...) so that doesn't necessarily disagree with you.

Reading this last part about altruism I can see that we are in agreed upon what the proper motivations are with slight differences.

I do not need God to help others on this earth, but with God I can help people on this earth and hopefully after this life. That is why I have God because I won't limit my compassion to this life.

Man, I hate such long things.

He has no gender (ironic statement...)

Originally posted by debbiejo
Man, I hate such long things.

liar 😉 😛

There is such a thing as tooooooo long..