Originally posted by Schecter
hard does not equal impossible. in ep1 till the beginning of ep2 its clear to yoda that he cannot sense the sith master's identity, supporting your statement. yet it is only later that yoda realises they the jedi are "blind". its not difficult at that point. its just downright impossible. if not for anakin's admission to mace, they likely would have been extinguished without a clue as to whodunnit.its clear from the diologue that sidious does far more than mask his own presence. he outwardly affects and in essence hobbles the jedi's ability to do anything more than use their powers to defend themselves. mace makes it clear in ep3 that the jedi have become useless to the senate in his suggestion to yoda that they admit their folly, and implies resignation.
in other words, its not just the source which is masked but rather all that the sith influences. the senate, the republic army, the federation...pretty much everything that exists outside of their order.
simply put, again: "the darkside clouds everything "
Well, I'm not really sure any of what you ay there is useful to the argument when Yoda's initial statement in TPM sums it up absolutely. Why can the Jedi not sense Palpatine? Because it's too hard to.
In fact the idea that you can just sense someone on the Dark Side is not supported by the films at any point, so the question should actually be "Why should they be able to sense it?"
But also I don't agree with your point in essence anyway. Mace and Yoda talk of a degredation in their ability to use the Force in the sense of doing things like sensing what is on Kamino, or the future in general- what Goerge Lucas calls the Cosmic Force, as opposed to the Living Forcr which is what gave Qui-Gon the instinct to know it was the Sith in the first place. Even at that point, no-one could just sense Maul was a Sith. It just doesn't work like that.
Yoda seemed to have no problem sensing/knowing that that cave was strong with the darkside though in ESB. And wasn't shy about making statements like "The darkside, I sense in you".
Mind you, that cave probably wasn't cloaking itself actively as Palpatine appeared to have been up til ROTS.
I do sometimes wonder if that the issue of the Darkside being so hard to see, is like a comment/warning on the whole "Banality of evil" concept to an extent at an analogical level.
Especially when titles like "The Phantom Menace" come into play.
Originally posted by Schecterhe clearly implies that palpatine SIMPLY (as in: simply that he was powerful enough to conceal his force connection) did just that and only that.
Im still adamant that Palpatine was not only doing that, but was actually cloaking his appearance 'til the Mace/Palps encounter in ROTS.
Yea...
But what about Yodas wisest crack so far...
- Obi Wans transmitted message finally gets relayed to Coruscant-
"Dooku is bad, They are forming a confederation, oh shit, wait... *lightsaber*"
Now Yodas wisdom really shines...
"More happening on Geonosis I feel, than what has been revealed."
No shit Yoda!? The fact that Obi Wan was engaged by a Super battle droids might indicate a somewhat subtle change in atmosphere.
And the fact that half the galaxy seems to be having a picnic down there might be a hint too, if you really think about it.
GJ Yoda!
Like saying after the child-killing hologram in episode 3 that : "Turned to dark side I feel Anakin has." O'rly?
Originally posted by Ushgarak
Well, I'm not really sure any of what you ay there is useful to the argument when Yoda's initial statement in TPM sums it up absolutely. Why can the Jedi not sense Palpatine? Because it's too hard to.
its not that simple. you answered why yoda cannot sense, off the bat, that palpatine is a sith. that is not the issue.
they cannot sense his hatred and lust for revenge. they cannot get a grasp of his planning and conspiring. apart from a look of suspicion, a momentary glance from yoda at the beginning of ep2, they are completely in the dark. (pun intended i guess). its not until ep3, that they become suspicious of palpatine. this after he becomes chancellor, creates a clone army behind their backs, and tries to kill padme numerous times. its clear that he is able to mask his thoughts, intentions, and feelings. its also clear from yoda's failed meditation on padme's assassination attempt that palpatine outwardly clouds the vision of the jedi. yoda cannot meditate on the situation at the beginning of ep2 without being bewildered at how blind he has become to the situation.
Originally posted by Ushgarak
In fact the idea that you can just sense someone on the Dark Side is not supported by the films at any point, so the question should actually be "Why should they be able to sense it?"because they have dealt with the sith before and should have known to not be so obtuse when dealing with the possibility. yoda was the only one who even gave quigon the time of day when he brought up the theory that the sith were involved. its not a question of them being able to sense a sith, but rather being able to sense the dark side.
[QUOTE=9812252]Originally posted by Ushgarak
[B]But also I don't agree with your point in essence anyway. Mace and Yoda talk of a degredation in their ability to use the Force in the sense of doing things like sensing what is on Kamino, or the future in general- what Goerge Lucas calls the Cosmic Force, as opposed to the Living Forcr which is what gave Qui-Gon the instinct to know it was the Sith in the first place. Even at that point, no-one could just sense Maul was a Sith. It just doesn't work like that.
im not sure who's point you're arguing there, but we're in agreement there:
Originally posted by Schecter
in other words, its not just the source which is masked but rather all that the sith influences. the senate, the republic army, the federation...pretty much everything that exists outside of their order.simply put, again: "the darkside clouds everything "
as far as being able to sense an actual sith, yoda certainly can sense the dark side. he senses it in the form of fear and anger, just as vader and palpatine can. are you saying that there is no type of force 'red light' which points out an actual sith? well i guess you're correct, but i never said anything to the contrary. my argument is rooted in the idea that palpatine can distort the 'cosmic force', not only concealing his own conspirings, but throwing a shroud over everything he influences, including the jedi.
question: I've watched in ep III earlier(it was playing on the bus i was riding- it was for a long trip) and Mace apparently sensed dark side around palpy... and he didn't do anything immediately about it, or even speculated before anakin told him that palpy may be the sith lord... what's up with that?
I had always believed (but have never been able to fully prove) that Palpatine had been using the dark side of the force to mask his presence and burdon the Jedi's ability to use the force. I assumed that Palpatine was more powerful than the movies had shown, and George had written it that way on purpose. His true power was supposed to be imagined, rather than seen. He could use the dark side to shade the areas that he didn't want the Jedi to see, hence the reason they couldn't see what was happening on Kamino. Also I had always thought that Palpatine was thousands of years old, and been planning the corruption of the republic during those years.
Originally posted by frankenfeltch
I had always believed (but have never been able to fully prove) that Palpatine had been using the dark side of the force to mask his presence and burdon the Jedi's ability to use the force. I assumed that Palpatine was more powerful than the movies had shown, and George had written it that way on purpose. His true power was supposed to be imagined, rather than seen. He could use the dark side to shade the areas that he didn't want the Jedi to see, hence the reason they couldn't see what was happening on Kamino. Also I had always thought that Palpatine was thousands of years old, and been planning the corruption of the republic during those years.
It makes more sense that way, why show how powerful a Sith Lord is and have people complain that he is either overpowered or underpowered but leave it to the imagination of the viewer, I like it.
Kamino was also a planet rarely visited, what was there to see unless the Jedi needed for themselves their own clone army, which they didn't they needed.
Thousands of years old? He looks good for his age.