Veneficus, I understand the point you're making, but that's understood.
Arguing who would win a tactical confrontation is much more complex and difficult than arguing who would win a physical one; the "any given sunday" adage very much applies. For example, we could use that very same doctrine to conclude that Darth Revan wouldn't necessarily overcome Jar Jar Binks in a tactical battle -- since there is no absolute guarentee that Revan > Binks on all occasions (hell, if one truly looks at the Phantom Menace, there is some latent brilliance in Jar Jar's stupidity).
Grand Admiral Thrawn brought the Empire (and I use "the Empire" loosely, since in reality -- he was commanding but a small fraction of their loyalties) to the total brink of victory, against an opponent whose forces outnumbered his with a much more stable infrastructure. Also, if we take the Dark Empire sourcebook into consideration (and the findings of Publius), the Reborn Emperor may have been working in secret against Thrawn -- indeed, it says that the Emperor was responsible for Thrawn's lack of ships. He was merely using Thrawn as a distraction, fully intending for his most brilliant commander to lose, in an insane quest to "purge" the Empire (it also implies that Palpatine was responsible for Thrawn's assassination at the hands of the Noghri).
It seems evident that Thrawn is better than Revan, and equipped with vastly more capable manpower and weapons' power, he logically wins.
Originally posted by Gideon Arguing who would win a tactical confrontation is much more complex and difficult than arguing who would win a physical one; the "any given sunday" adage very much applies. For example, we could use that very same doctrine to conclude that Darth Revan wouldn't necessarily overcome Jar Jar Binks in a tactical battle -- since there is no absolute guarentee that Revan > Binks on all occasions (hell, if one truly looks at the Phantom Menace, there is some latent brilliance in Jar Jar's stupidity).
I don't see how Jar Jar really could prove as even a remote challenger to Revan. Yes, it is not an absolute that Revan would always win against Jar Jar. However, I do not see how this relevant. On a scale of 1-10 I would put Jar Jar at a 2 and Revan at a 9 when comparing tactical skill. It it simply such an overwhelming distance between the two in ability that I think it is safe to say that Revan would win against Jar Jar in a tactical confrontation.
Originally posted by Gideon Grand Admiral Thrawn brought the Empire (and I use "the Empire" loosely, since in reality -- he was commanding but a small fraction of their loyalties) to the total brink of victory, against an opponent whose forces outnumbered his with a much more stable infrastructure. Also, if we take the Dark Empire sourcebook into consideration (and the findings of Publius), the Reborn Emperor may have been working in secret against Thrawn -- indeed, it says that the Emperor was responsible for Thrawn's lack of ships. He was merely using Thrawn as a distraction, fully intending for his most brilliant commander to lose, in an insane quest to "purge" the Empire (it also implies that Palpatine was responsible for Thrawn's assassination at the hands of the Noghri).It seems evident that Thrawn is better than Revan, and equipped with vastly more capable manpower and weapons' power, he logically wins.
You cite Thrawn's accomplishments, I can just as easily do the same for Revan. He took a battered and broken Republic Fleet and turned the war against the Mandalorians (the Mandalorians hardly being a pushover). He won that war and then moved on to bring the Republic to its knees. We have quotes from Canderious that call Revan a genius on the field. What do you think it would take to earn such respect from Canderious? The man cannot shut up about Revan; considering that he does not strike me as the type of man to give out such praise easily, I think his word has considerable weight. Canderious isn't even the only one who gives praise to Revan's tactical skill. Dorak, Brianna and just about every other character who talks about Revan seems to set his tactical skill above all else.
Granted, it is difficult to to show genuine examples of Revan's tactical ability, we can only see the end result of his actions, we have yet to see him in actual battle. All of our sources in this matter are second hand sources or eye witnesses, but we ourselves never actually get to see Revan in action. With the current KOTOR comic series moving the way it is, I do not know if we will finally see the "Revanchist" make his moves or not. The comics are more focused on Zayne and "Alek".
I think what it comes down to is whether or not you believe that Revan could have succeeded in what Thrawn was able to do. Could Revan have led the Imperial Remnant against the New Republic? I believe he could, but again we will never know and the former statement is merely my opinion based off what we are told in the games.
I am not saying Revan would win against Thrawn, but nor do I believe that Thrawn would simply walk over Revan. If the two were set up with equal tech levels and a more... even matchup I think it can be argued to be a very close match.
In short, Jar Jar vs Revan is highly skewed, Revan vs Thrawn is a considerably finer line.
The difference is that pro-Thrawn arguments are better supported than pro-Revan arguments. Ultimately, Thrawn was in a more pitiful scenario and came closer to total victory than Revan. Never mind the fact that you can't really compare the two in terms of respective situations. Revan was a genius-without-peer at the time, his second-in-command was extraordinarily brutal, he had assistance from incalculable reserves of Force-sensitives and trained personnel, not to mention that he also had the Star Forge and an unlimited amount of resources? Thrawn was battling the likes of Admiral Ackbar and the full might and superior resources of the New Republic while simultaneously dealing with the unrivaled spynets of the Bothans and the Smuggler's Alliance and -- last but not least -- inadvertantly pitting himself against the efforts of Emperor Palpatine.
Objectively speaking, Revan had it a lot easier.
Edit #1: Not to mention that Revan has the benefit of being Force sensitive. He's got the aid of an omnipresent and omnipotent universal force and still can't stand equal to Thrawn.
Edit #2: No offense, but do you really want to compare Thrawn and Revan in a battle of Verbal Fellatios? I can guarentee Thrawn will come out ahead (no pun intended).
Originally posted by Gideon
Edit #2: No offense, but do you really want to compare Thrawn and Revan in a battle of Verbal Fellatios? I can guarentee Thrawn will come out ahead (no pun intended).
No, not really, it would go nowhere and end up like the gazillion other Revan vs Thrawn threads out there. So, let us simply agree to disagree...
But, I can still beat them both at chess.
Thrawn had star destroyers and super star destroyers at his expense, and managed to capture the Katana fleet. This was all against the rebel alliance who had yet to pull all of its resources together to really become a powerhouse..
Revan had access to unlimited ships but he was going against all of the armies of the republic. I hardly see how Thrawn was in a pitiful situation. Granted, Thrawn really IS the better tactician, the argument that he had less to work with against a more powerful foe is completely inaccurate.
The pro-Revan arguments borne out of ignorance is becoming rather tiresome. No offense intended, but if you're not familiar with the source material and merely post an argument to fellate your preferred character, there is no need to post at all.
Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Thrawn had star destroyers and super star destroyers at his expense, and managed to capture the Katana fleet.
Grand Admiral Thrawn did not have any Super-class Star Destroyers at his disposal, and his Imperial-classes were in very limited amounts. He outwitted the New Republic and, yes, captured the Katana Fleet -- which helped his numbers but that's it. Unless you're suggesting these pre-Clone Wars era warships will suddenly outgun the Mon Calamarian cruisers.
This was all against the rebel alliance who had yet to pull all of its resources together to really become a powerhouse..
No, this would be the New Republic, equipped with "better trained" troops, more reserves, and larger territory than the Empire at this point -- much less Thrawn's little section.
Revan had access to unlimited ships but he was going against all of the armies of the republic.
He was their supreme tactition, the most potent Force user of the age, numerous Jedi converts, and an unlimited armada, and you're telling me that I'm supposed to bear in mind that he was facing "all the armies of the Republic"? A challenge, to be sure, but nothing compared to what Thrawn was facing.
I hardly see how Thrawn was in a pitiful situation.
Then, no offense, but you've hardly been reading. Thrawn was in a shithole of a situation from the start, battling not only the Republic, but -- after time -- the efforts of Emperor Palpatine.
Granted, Thrawn really IS the better tactician, the argument that he had less to work with against a more powerful foe is completely inaccurate.
It would be, if you'd made valid points. As it so happens, you've been completely wrong about Thrawn's situation, and confuse his armada with that of the entire Empire. That is a grossly inaccurate conclusion and it's been made explicitly clear. Palpatine was undermining Thrawn at every effort, withholding ships and personnel until finally he arranged for his assassination.
Revan is curbstomped.
Here is what woud happen. Ships fight. Thrawn's win (just because of larger and more powerful ships). Fighters battle. Revan's win(because TIEs are hell-bad compared to uber sith fighters). Thrawn then boards the Flagship to take Revan hostage. When Thrawn lauches into some monologue saying how pitiful Revan is, Reven cuts his head off with his saber. superior sith infantry repel boarders. Battle Over. 💃 🥷 🏴☠️ 🤘 YAY
Originally posted by Obi7And also because thrawn is a superior tactician.
Here is what woud happen. Ships fight. Thrawn's win (just because of larger and more powerful ships).
Originally posted by Obi7Empire tie fighters >>>>> sith fighters, obvious from the 4000 year technological advancement.
Fighters battle. Revan's win(because TIEs are hell-bad compared to uber sith fighters).
Originally posted by Obi7
Here is what woud happen. Ships fight. Thrawn's win (just because of larger and more powerful ships). Fighters battle. Revan's win(because TIEs are hell-bad compared to uber sith fighters). Thrawn then boards the Flagship to take Revan hostage. When Thrawn lauches into some monologue saying how pitiful Revan is, Reven cuts his head off with his saber. superior sith infantry repel boarders. Battle Over. 💃 🥷 🏴☠️ 🤘 YAY
Actually, what I was thinking was that a single Super Star Destroyer comes out of hyperspace and destroys Revans entire fleet, including the Starforge, effortlessly and a little under an hour.
Thrawn then makes it back home in time to catch the last fifteen minutes of Heroes.
Again canon states revan is a male, get it in your head numbskull, if you can't acknowledge canon then you shouldn't be here and instead, go to http://lucasforums.com/forumdisplay.php?f=321 where they need idiots like you, oh wait you will get attacked there too.