Originally posted by Ultra Omega
No other being in Marvel Canon has been indicated at being as great an Omniversal threat,
Other beings have actually Remade and/or affected the Omniverse,
so how are you giving Proteus so much status when he never did anything to it?
Originally posted by Ultra Omega
so would it be safe to say that Mutant X may in fact be the most powerful being in the Marvel Continuity?
😂
Wanda re-created this cat,
Wanda, who has really ripped apart and remade the Omniverse.
Originally posted by Ultra Omega
Absence of proof =/= proof of absence. Not displaying that level of power doesn't mean that he doesn't have it.
Jaspers >>> Proteus ... anytime, anyday.
Originally posted by Ultra Omega
As I said, in a definitive "What IF?" future, Proteus, through his sheer power, is able to bring forth the end of creation.
This never happened in the present or the future, or any scenerio.
I have that issue,
Proteus was clearly depcited as a being with potential based on specific circumstances.
That was a simulation program projecting what would happen with a big "IF" infront of it:
This isn't happening in a future Timeline,
this is a computer assuming a Future based on variables.
It's just a simulation.
...................................................................................
Meh, on top of this, it's just a potential Multiversal threat:
Impressive potential, but that ain't the Omniverse.
Originally posted by Ultra Omega
Nothing even hints at Jim Jaspers having a level of power anywhere close to that.
Actually unlike Proteus,
Jaspers really DID Warp the entire Omniverse in a definitve Future.
Cobweb (who peers into Past & Future Timelines) saw it happen:
This Future was based on whether Jaspers' Plot Device (Fury) stopped him or not.
...................................................................................
I guess when Merlyn said this:
"You cannot fail, this version of Japers is too powerful, too dangerous"
(the other version being 238 Jaspers,
they had to destroy the entire 238 Universe in order to kill 238 Jaspers,)
but 616 Jaspers is,
"NOT so easily contained, and if he's not stopped,
the OMNI-VERSE will fall into Chaos,
and a NEW GOD shall play dice with Matter"
...................................................................................
I guess he wasn't talking about a potential assumption based on a simulation program.
Originally posted by Mr Master
Other beings have actually Remade and/or affected the Omniverse,
Simply untrue. No being has ever fully remade the Omniverse or effected its entirety. I can only assume that you're either lying, heavily misinterpreting something, or have been wrongly informed.
so how are you giving Proteus so much status when he never did anything to it?
The fact that he didn't actually do it is irrelevant. The definitive "What If?" future states that he can do such. Having the power to do it would remain whether the definitive "What If?" future came to fruition or not, given what prevented it from happening was Proteus not being able to regain his memories or personality, which in no way factors in on his Reality Manipulation powers.
😂Wanda re-created this cat,
Wanda, who has really ripped apart and remade the Omniverse.
First; Wanda only did that to a small portion of the Omniverse. She didn't rip apart and remake the entire Omniverse. Proteus destroyed the entire Omniverse. The feat is a million times greater.
Second; read above. Showings aren't all. Your "really" really means nothing, given that Proteus not "really" doing what is shown in no way detracts from his ability to do such.
[/B]Jaspers >>> Proteus ... anytime, anyday.[/B]
Completely unsupported.
This never happened in the present or the future, or any scenerio.
Irrelevant Misdirection. There's a reason it's a Logical Fallacy. Don't commit it. The fact that the definitive "What If?" future never came to fruition doesn't detract from the fact that such could have happened, and in both cases, Proteus' power level remains the same
I have that issue,
Proteus was clearly depcited as a being with potential based on specific circumstances.[/QUOTEYou don't give him enough credit. He's depicted as having far more than just "potential."
[QUOTE]That was a simulation program projecting what would happen with a big "IF" infront of it:
This isn't happening in a future Timeline,
this is a computer assuming a Future based on variables.It's just a simulation.
...................................................................................
You would be 100% correct of course, if not for the Omniscient Narrator's words fully coinciding with the simulation, and actually stated that it would have happened, essentially making the simulation more than just a simulation, and what would have definitely happened.
Even if that wasn't the case however, the simulation was generated by a construct (Crystal Palace) that had extremely in depth knowledge of the entire Omniverse, so it would still speak volumes anyway as for the accuracy of the simulation.
Meh, on top of this, it's just a potential Multiversal threat:Impressive potential, but that ain't the Omniverse.
"For the Exiles, this is the way Creation ends." - first page of Enemies of the Stars, Part 1.
"Creation" is the entire Omniverse, and Proteus is set up as a being with the power to end it, essentially making him the greatest Omniversal threat that has thus far been depicted in Marvel Canon.
Actually unlike Proteus,Jaspers really DID Warp the entire Omniverse in a definitve Future.
Cobweb (who peers into Past & Future Timelines) saw it happen:
This Future was based on whether Jaspers' Plot Device (Fury) stopped him or not.
...................................................................................
No, not the entire Omniverse, but an unknown number of universe. I say unknown, given we don't know the potency of the "Dominoes Effect", in other words how great an effect it had and how long it lasted.
I guess when Merlyn said this:"You cannot fail, this version of Japers is too powerful, too dangerous"
(the other version being 238 Jaspers,
they had to destroy the entire 238 Universe in order to kill 238 Jaspers,)but 616 Jaspers is,
"NOT so easily contained, and if he's not stopped,
the OMNI-VERSE will fall into Chaos,
and a NEW GOD shall play dice with Matter"
...................................................................................
Wonderful scan and quotes, and Jaspers is indeed extremely powerful, one of the greatest displayed beings in Marvel Canon in fact based on what we know, but seriously... come on now; how exactly does any of than put Jaspers anywhere near someone capable of ending creation itself?
I guess he wasn't talking about a potential assumption based on a simulation program.
Neither was the Omniscient Narrator in Exiles #90.
Eh, I just realised that my post didn't come out properly, which is extremely odd given I typed it out perfectly. Anyways, I can assume that most can still understand it, however one of my replies doesn't appear to have gotten through, so I'll just reply to it now:
Originally posted by Mr Master
Wanda re-created this cat,
Which means what exactly? If you're trying to assert superiority, then substantiate. Simply bringing someone back to life (which is what she did, she didn't re-create him) in no way indicates superiority, especially considering that Proteus, given his form of pure energy can't actually ever permanently die.
Anyways Mr Master, given that you haven't responded, can I treat this as you conceding your argument? Otherwise a reply any time now would be great.
Originally posted by Ultra Omega
Eh, I just realised that my post didn't come out properly, which is extremely odd given I typed it out perfectly. Anyways, I can assume that most can still understand it, however one of my replies doesn't appear to have gotten through, so I'll just reply to it now:Which means what exactly? If you're trying to assert superiority, then substantiate. Simply bringing someone back to life (which is what she did, she didn't re-create him) in no way indicates superiority, especially considering that Proteus, given his form of pure energy can't actually ever permanently die.
Anyways Mr Master, given that you haven't responded, can I treat this as you conceding your argument? Otherwise a reply any time now would be great.
master concede? You don't know him do you? You better get your scans ready.
Originally posted by Ultra Omega
Simply untrue.No being has ever fully remade the Omniverse or effected its entirety.
HOM Wanda tore up the Omniverse, then with a single phrase put it back together.
The Alien Entity folded the Omniverse, then with Reed's mind,
Re-created the Omniverse from nothingness.
Merlyn fused the life-force of the Omniverse into tiny crystals,
that are used by the Celestial Nullifier to erase UniverseS.
Havok/Nexus erased the Goblin Force from every Universe in the Omniverse simultaneusly,
while merged he's able to collapse every Reality in the Omniverse.
Jaspers in a definite Future seen by Cobweb, collapsed the entire Omniverse.
Jamie Warped the WHR, a Multiveral nexus, possibly Omniversal.
Entropy recreated the Omniverse.
Considering the feats of Cosmic Cubes,
I'd say the BeyonderS are surely Omniversal.
Vanguaard can destroy any Universe in the Omniverse.
Edifice Rex was going to fold the Omniverse back into its Cosmic Egg,
even Oblivion was literally shaking in fear.
.................................................................................
Originally posted by Ultra Omega
I can only assume that you're either lying,
heavily misinterpreting something,
or have been wrongly informed.
😆
Originally posted by Ultra Omega
The fact that he didn't actually do it is irrelevant. The definitive "What If?" future states that he can do such. Having the power to do it would remain whether the definitive "What If?" future came to fruition or not, given what prevented it from happening was Proteus not being able to regain his memories or personality, which in no way factors in on his Reality Manipulation powers.
Proteus is a Global power at best, nothing more.
Now, he's not even that.
Originally posted by Ultra Omega
First; Wanda only did that to a small portion of the Omniverse.
She didn't rip apart and remake the entire Omniverse.
Actually she did.
Here's a scene briefly describing what brought Jaspers back to life.
From the "Omniscient Narrator" as you pleasantly termed him:
"Not so long ago,
the Omniverse was swept by a temporal reality Wave of unimagineable power --
That literally tore the continuum to bits, and rearranged it.."
"Then after time it apparently reversed itself,
and put everything back the way it was --
Well almost everything.."
Enter James Jaspers"
........................................................................................................
As we know, that's the Chaos Wave he's referring to:
"it is the End ... of ALL that is ... of ALL that will Ever be"
........................................................................................................
This same Chaos Wave brought back Jaspers 616 from another Plane of Reality
This exact moment was retold in "X-Men Die by the Sword"
........................................................................................................
AGAIN ... The Omniverse
"Not long ago, the Omniverse was swept
by a Temporal Reality Wave of unimaginable power,
that literally tore the Continuum to bits and Re-arranged it"
........................................................................................................
This same Chaos Wave (Temporal Reality Wave that brought back Jaspers)
is referred to as "Scarlet Witch's Reality Warp"
in the Official Handbook Of The Marvel Universe v5 2006.
In THREE separate Bios
1. "During the Scarlet Witch's 'House of M' Reality Warp, Jaspers Reformed alive merged with the Fury"
(excerpt from the Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe)
........................................................................................................
2. "Mad Jim Jaspers has also returned, brought back to life by the Scarlet Witch's recent Reality Warp"
And as I presented above,
it was the Chaos Wave that manifested Jaspers 616 from another Plane.
(he was dead)
........................................................................................................
3. Wanda gave Layla the power to "Perceive Divergent Realities"
"Layla showed Cage glimpses of his life prior to the Scarlet Witch's Reality Warp"
........................................................................................................
And more ....
Or if you prefer a blatant On Panel statement
that directly associates the Chaos Wave with Wanda:
Nightcrawler tells Cyclops,
"Rachel mentioned something from her dream
about a powerful 'Chaos Wave'
Scott, what's going on Just what are we dealing with here? ... "
Scott responds,
"Good Lord, Wanda, what else have YOU done to us?"
Originally posted by Ultra Omega
Proteus destroyed the entire Omniverse.
The feat is a million times greater.
Riiight. Just show me where this happened on panel,
or show me where its stated to have happened in a bio.
Originally posted by Ultra Omega
Second; read above. Showings aren't all. Your "really" really means nothing, given that Proteus not "really" doing what is shown in no way detracts from his ability to do such.
His ability has him at a planetary warper On Panel,
nothing more nothing less.
Actually I think I'm wrong, it may actually be below that on panel,
I think it was just a city,
I'll flip the relevant issues in a while and I'll post the scans for ya.
Originally posted by Ultra Omega
Completely unsupported.
Nothing more unsupported than you claiming Proteus destroyed the Omniverse. 😂
Jaspers warped/became the 616 Universe on panel:
"I made everything actually, I made the sky, I made the Tiger the Lamb"
"I made the Stars"
........................................................................................................
Shooh, he ain't lying:
not in Future visions, computer simulations, or "what if" futures,
On Panel in the Present baby.
Originally posted by Ultra Omega
Irrelevant Misdirection. There's a reason it's a Logical Fallacy. Don't commit it.
The fact that the definitive "What If?" future never came to fruition doesn't detract from the fact that such could have happened, and in both cases, Proteus' power level remains the same
You must be under the impression that if you include a discrediting opening sentence,
it'll somehow give your explanation more merit than it deserves.
Nice.
Proteus has never done anything on a Universal level,
or even Galactic level,
heck not even Global if I'm not mistaken (looking into it)
you put him on an Omniversal level yet he has no feats,
that put him even remotely close to a Universal power.
Originally posted by Ultra Omega
You would be 100% correct of course, if not for the Omniscient Narrator's words fully coinciding with the simulation, and actually stated that it would have happened, essentially making the simulation more than just a simulation, and what would have definitely happened.
Hyperbole.
Cat's done nothing to make him a Universal threat.
Originally posted by Ultra Omega
Even if that wasn't the case however, the simulation was generated by a construct (Crystal Palace) that had extremely in depth knowledge of the entire Omniverse, so it would still speak volumes anyway as for the accuracy of the simulation.
Hyperbole.
Cat's done nothing to make him a Universal threat.
Originally posted by Ultra Omega
"For the Exiles, this is the way Creation ends." - first page of Enemies of the Stars, Part 1."Creation" is the entire Omniverse, and Proteus is set up as a being with the power to end it, essentially making him the greatest Omniversal threat that has thus far been depicted in Marvel Canon.
While he had his memory he wasn't even a Universal threat.
There's absolutely no proof of any kind to boost him anymore than what he's presented,
Global warper, at best.
Originally posted by Ultra Omega
No, not the entire Omniverse, but an unknown number of universe.
I say unknown, given we don't know the potency of the "Dominoes Effect",
in other words how great an effect it had and how long it lasted.
This is funny, you pumping Proteus into the forum as an Omniversal badass,'when he's never done anything greater than affect a Planet.
Here we have Jaspers,
being seen by Cobweb in a Future Timeline collapsing the Omniverse On Panel,
and you try and spin it in something other. lol.
"But if this Game is Lost, I see a Universe eaten alive by Chaos,
and ANOTHER Universe,
and ANOTHER,
like Dominos, Tumbling ...
I see the Future"
What is the Future Cobweb honey?
"it is Cancelled"
...................................................................................................
"unknown number?"
Try all of them, there's only an empty Void left.
Originally posted by Ultra Omega
Wonderful scan and quotes, and Jaspers is indeed extremely powerful, one of the greatest displayed beings in Marvel Canon in fact based on what we know, but seriously... come on now; how exactly does any of than put Jaspers anywhere near someone capable of ending creation itself? [/B]
Proteus has never done anything greater than Planetary, and perhaps even less.
Originally posted by Ultra Omega
Neither was the Omniscient Narrator in Exiles #90. [/B]
Proteus has no feats
to suggest he's capable of anything Universal letalone Omniverse.
Nice opening statement by the narrator to pump up the hype.
I really don't have time to reply to an argument with 3 essays worth of text, so I'll just get to the point.
The Omniscient Narrator outright claims: "For the Exiles, this is the way that Creation ends." This is in reference to what would happen if Proteus were to regain control over his personality and memories.
Firstly, you label it hyperbole, which is just plain silly. It's not an exaggeration on the narrator's part, it's quite clearly an extremely unambiguous statement, with the meaning being quite fixed, and not up for variation. You have quite frankly no grounds to label it hyperbole.
Secondly, you try to argue against it by claiming that Proteus is a Global threat at best, simply based on his showings. Well, absence of proof is nor proof of absence. Just because he hasn't shown such power, it doesn't mean he doesn't have it. Provide proof of a necessity for displaying such power, or drop the point. Given that Proteus' goal wasn't exactly anything mass destruction related, but simply to find the perfect host for which could contain his power, there would be no need to display power on such a level.
Thirdly, you appear to think that the fact that the future never came into fruition somehow detracts from Proteus' displayed ability in the future. Here's a hint: it doesn't. Just like the definitive future that could have occurred with Jaspers, what prevented the one with Proteus from coming to pass was a plot device; that he wasn't able to regain control over his memories. This doesn't detract from the power level he possessed however, which would remain constant.
So, your counter arguments are quite clearly worthless, and the fact remains that Proteus, at that point in time, possessed the level of power capable of destroying the entire Omniverse.
Now, as for your example with Jaspers, there is a fundamental point that you're missing. These future timelines that would be collapsing are only the future timelines that would have been a product of the 616 timeline. This doesn't account for all the timelines that were non parallel to the Earth 616 Universe. So, as I said, the amount of the Omniverse that would be effected is quite frankly completely unknown. It's a great feat to be sure, but you're misinterpreting just how great.
As for my second piece of evidence for Proteus; from the same issue where he's stated to end creation in a "What If?" future, he's stated as being "possibly the most powerful being in creation," meaning at the very least, he's at least close in power to anyone who may be above him in power.
Now you can meander all you want, but I'm fairly certain that my points speak for themselves, and the fact remains that Proteus is logically more powerful than Jaspers, based both on what his power could achieve, and his given power status in the Omniverse.
Originally posted by Ultra Omega
I really don't have time to reply to an argument with 3 essays worth of text, so I'll just get to the point.The Omniscient Narrator outright claims: "For the Exiles, this is the way that Creation ends." This is in reference to what would happen if Proteus were to regain control over his personality and memories.
Firstly, you label it hyperbole, which is just plain silly. It's not an exaggeration on the narrator's part, it's quite clearly an extremely unambiguous statement, with the meaning being quite fixed, and not up for variation. You have quite frankly no grounds to label it hyperbole.
Secondly, you try to argue against it by claiming that Proteus is a Global threat at best, simply based on his showings. Well, absence of proof is nor proof of absence. Just because he hasn't shown such power, it doesn't mean he doesn't have it. Provide proof of a necessity for displaying such power, or drop the point. Given that Proteus' goal wasn't exactly anything mass destruction related, but simply to find the perfect host for which could contain his power, there would be no need to display power on such a level.
Thirdly, you appear to think that the fact that the future never came into fruition somehow detracts from Proteus' displayed ability in the future. Here's a hint: it doesn't. Just like the definitive future that could have occurred with Jaspers, what prevented the one with Proteus from coming to pass was a plot device; that he wasn't able to regain control over his memories. This doesn't detract from the power level he possessed however, which would remain constant.
So, your counter arguments are quite clearly worthless, and the fact remains that Proteus, at that point in time, possessed the level of power capable of destroying the entire Omniverse.
Now, as for your example with Jaspers, there is a fundamental point that you're missing. These future timelines that would be collapsing are only the future timelines that would have been a product of the 616 timeline. This doesn't account for all the timelines that were non parallel to the Earth 616 Universe. So, as I said, the amount of the Omniverse that would be effected is quite frankly completely unknown. It's a great feat to be sure, but you're misinterpreting just how great.
As for my second piece of evidence for Proteus; from the same issue where he's stated to end creation in a "What If?" future, he's stated as being "possibly the most powerful being in creation," meaning at the very least, he's at least close in power to anyone who may be above him in power.
Now you can meander all you want, but I'm fairly certain that my points speak for themselves, and the fact remains that Proteus is logically more powerful than Jaspers, based both on what his power could achieve, and his given power status in the Omniverse.
Signed and cosigned!
To argue with MM is to get drawn into a disagreement with somebody that has just enough understanding of the way Marvel and DC have laid out their "realities", to give you a headache.
But, in truth, if you really understand the architecture that has been created, you will see that MMaster has a lot of holes in his theories.
He follows a book to the letter in one argument, and in his next, if it suits his purpose, he jumps to wild, opinionated conclusions that are waaaay off base from what is being depicted on panel.
Originally posted by Horrificus
Signed and cosigned!To argue with MM is to get drawn into a disagreement with somebody that has just enough understanding of the way Marvel and DC have laid out their "realities", to give you a headache.
But, in truth, if you really understand the architecture that has been created, you will see that MMaster has a lot of holes in his theories.
He follows a book to the letter in one argument, and in his next, if it suits his purpose, he jumps to wild, opinionated conclusions that are waaaay off base from what is being depicted on panel.
You are just figuring this out? Muhahahahahaha 😆 😆 😆
Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
You are just figuring this out? Muhahahahahaha
You're a real snake Nvr,
we haven't quarreled with animosity in a long time,
I been treating you with patience & respect for a while now, (even in disagreements)
and yet
you have to side with cats that enter threads just to vainly attempt to besmirch my name.
Cool, do what you do, I won't bite back in that manner. 🙂
Originally posted by Mr Master
You're a real snake Nvr,
we haven't quarreled with animosity in a long time,
I been treating you with patience & respect for a while now, (even in disagreements)
and yet
you have to side with cats that enter threads just to vainly attempt to besmirch my name.Cool, do what you do, I won't bite back in that manner. 🙂
Master. You didn't answer my request earlier asking for PROOF of Classic MM"s superiority over the LT. and until you concede that i'm correct, i'm just going to figure that you have made a hierachy and you refuse to change your mind no matter the evidence. thus he is correct. doesn't mean i don't respect you. But you have your MAJOR flaws. As do we all. i'm just calling it how I see it.
