Originally posted by Mr Master
You're a real snake Nvr,
we haven't quarreled with animosity in a long time,
I been treating you with patience & respect for a while now, (even in disagreements)
and yet
you have to side with cats that enter threads just to vainly attempt to besmirch my name.Cool, do what you do, I won't bite back in that manner. 🙂
Don't mind Nvr, he's still in a huff over Darkseid getting batkicked.
Originally posted by Mr MasterI'm pretty dumbfounded at how Proteus got so overrated here...
👆 I guess when one actually reads comics,
this decision isn't to hard to come by.
Hell, I think Surfer could stomp him truthfully...
Speaking of comics (a very weird thing on this part of the forum), are you picking up Marvel Zombies 2 #2 tomorrow?
Originally posted by Mr. Slippyfist
I'm pretty dumbfounded at how Proteus got so overrated here...
Ignorance, supported by further ignorance.
Originally posted by Mr. Slippyfist
Hell, I think Surfer could stomp him truthfully...
Yea, I think Proteus warped like a city or something similar,
I don't think it was even a Planet.
But unlike those others,
I won't demean the cat's possibility at being Global until I'm sure.
Originally posted by Mr. Slippyfist
Speaking of comics (a very weird thing on this part of the forum),
are you picking up Marvel Zombies 2 #2 tomorrow?
What should I be expecting?
I'll get it if its note worthy.
Originally posted by Ultra Omega
The Omniscient Narrator outright claims: "For the Exiles, this is the way that Creation ends." This is in reference to what would happen if Proteus were to regain control over his personality and memories.
I finshed re-reading the arc yesterday,
the Arc had nothing to do with Proteus.
But it did have to do with the "End of Creation" ... but NOT at the hands of Proteus.
In fact,
that whole scene in the beginning was a farce,
a mis-understanding of the true threat in that issue, and the rest of the arc.
How is this mis-understanding possible?
Because of their last confrontation with Proteus,
when he tried to download the Crystal Palace's indices in it's data base.
The Crystal Palace's network system was partially damaged,
they can access realities, teleport back & forth,
BUT ... (say it with me now)
"We can't always see what's happening"
......................................................................................
And WHAT happened that was mis-understood?
Like the computer sumilation telling them Proteus is the threat to the Omniverse,
when in FACT,
it was Earth 1720's Reed Richards' TECH,
and Susan Richards, who turned evil in that world and became Madam Hydra.
As Madam Hydra, she wanted to use Reed's TECH, to conquer the Omniverse.
NOT Proteus, heck, Proteus isn't even mentioned after issue #1. 😬
I'll get to that in a second ... with the PROOF as always.
Originally posted by Ultra Omega
Firstly, you label it hyperbole, which is just plain silly. It's not an exaggeration on the narrator's part, it's quite clearly an extremely unambiguous statement, with the meaning being quite fixed, and not up for variation. You have quite frankly no grounds to label it hyperbole.
My bad, it wasn't even hyperbole, just a computer glitch,
which I'll prove in a bit.
Originally posted by Ultra Omega
Secondly, you try to argue against it by claiming that Proteus is a Global threat at best, simply based on his showings. Well, absence of proof is nor proof of absence. Just because he hasn't shown such power, it doesn't mean he doesn't have it. Provide proof of a necessity for displaying such power, or drop the point. Given that Proteus' goal wasn't exactly anything mass destruction related, but simply to find the perfect host for which could contain his power, there would be no need to display power on such a level.
Actually Proteus tried to download the Crystal Palace's index to every reality during HOM,
he did this, to gain access to other realities,
in order to cause havok in them.
So yea, Proteus very much wanted to destroy and conquer.
Originally posted by Ultra Omega
Thirdly, you appear to think that the fact that the future never came into fruition somehow detracts from Proteus' displayed ability in the future. Here's a hint: it doesn't. Just like the definitive future that could have occurred with Jaspers, what prevented the one with Proteus from coming to pass was a plot device; that he wasn't able to regain control over his memories. This doesn't detract from the power level he possessed however, which would remain constant.
Upon new info learned,
that computer simulation was just a network glitch,
Exiles were running in circles thinking Proteus was the Omniversal threat,
we soon learned it was Reed Richards' TECH being manipulated by Madam Hydra,
Madam Hydra (Susan Richards)
Originally posted by Ultra Omega
So, your counter arguments are quite clearly worthless,
and the fact remains that Proteus, at that point in time, possessed the level of power capable of destroying the entire Omniverse.
My argument is "worthless"
yet you don't even know what the heck the arc was about.
You took one page from the first issue of the arc and ran for broke with it,
you should've read the rest of the arc friend.
Unlike yourself, I'll sustain from demeaning your mis-guided post.
Originally posted by Ultra Omega
Now, as for your example with Jaspers, there is a fundamental point that you're missing. These future timelines that would be collapsing are only the future timelines that would have been a product of the 616 timeline. This doesn't account for all the timelines that were non parallel to the Earth 616 Universe. So, as I said, the amount of the Omniverse that would be effected is quite frankly completely unknown. It's a great feat to be sure, but you're misinterpreting just how great.
Jaspers collapsed the entire Omniverse on panel
in a possible Future actually seen by Cobweb.
Nice try on the timeline spin, completely made up.
Originally posted by Ultra Omega
As for my second piece of evidence for Proteus; from the same issue where he's stated to end creation in a "What If?" future,
Proteus has nothing to do with any "What If" future,
"What If" futures, are actually Alternate Universes in continuity.
Proteus was simulated by the network systems of the Palace owning the Exiles,
and destroying a couple of Planets in his hands.
We quickly learned that was a systems glitch,
the real threat was Reed Richards' TECH.
Originally posted by Ultra Omega
he's stated as being "possibly the most powerful being in creation," meaning at the very least, he's at least close in power to anyone who may be above him in power.
Proteus is possibly a global power, nothing more ... if that.
Originally posted by Ultra Omega
Now you can meander all you want, but I'm fairly certain that my points speak for themselves,
Nah.
What we got here is a game of show & tell,
you're telling me everything and showing me nothing.
Originally posted by Ultra Omega
and the fact remains that Proteus is logically more powerful than Jaspers, based both on what his power could achieve, and his given power status in the Omniverse. [/B]
I'll giggle later.
So the FACTS concerning Proteus and "the Enemy of the Stars arc"
So the Exiles' Crystal Palace network systems
conjures up a computer simulation defining a threat to Creation in the Omniverse:
It's true, at first it seems to be Proteus BUT THEN ...
we learn the TRUTH!!!
...................................................................................................
The same system that simulated that fantasy,
is the same system that was damaged during HOM by Proteus
"Some kind of static is degrading our ability to scan the Timestream,
we can't always see what's happening"
...................................................................................................
We don't know this until we see Roma interfere for the sake of the Omniverse.
First Roma subtly inserts her consciousness/image into the simulation:
"Check that out, that looks like our Crystal Palace, (that's the Starlight Citidel)
but who's the woman?" (Roma)
...................................................................................................
Heather knows she saw a woman (Roma) in the simulation,
but Heather can't find the images anywhere,
That's because Roma wasn't part of that simulation,
that really was Roma realizing the Exiles are mistaken as to who/what is the threat to Creation.
I'll prove it.
...................................................................................................
Roma is still subtly making her appearance known,
everytime Heather rings up an Excalibur member from her files,
the Starlight Citidel briefly appears in Heather's screen, then vanishes:
...................................................................................................
But the Exiles still think its Proteus, or rather Morph
(who's really Proteus but thinks he's Morph)
So Roma begins to materialize herself within the Crystal Palace's data base screen:
...................................................................................................
Roma interferes and leads the Exiles to the REAL threat:
...................................................................................................
Immediately the Exiles are alerted to the World where the REAL threat is coming from:
Notice that the computer systems are still F'd up somewhat.
...................................................................................................
So WHO"S the REAL threat?
Who desires to rule the Omniverse?
Who plans on conquering the Omniverse?
Who plans to REALLY be the Overlord of Creation?
And it has absolutely nothing to do with Proteus!
Now,
how is Earth 1720's Susan Richards (Madam Hydra) going to conquer the Omniverse?
Why, with Reed's TECH of course:
Why rule a World when I can offer you a prize that makes the very Stars irrelevant?"
"So my love,
you wish me on my merry way to conquer this Infinite number of Parallel Dimensions"
...................................................................................................
It seems like Reed is helping her, but in fact it's a trick.
...................................................................................................
After Heather finally learns the truth,
that it's Reed NOT Proteus who threatens Creation,
Heather tells the Exiles they must kill Reed,
to prevent Susan from getting Reed's TECH and using it:
To preserve the sanctity of Crosstime ... Reed Richards must die"
"To save the World?" .... "Kill Reed Richards, or this whole Dimension gets wiped"
"According to HEather, he (Reed) lives ... bad guys (Susan) escape this World"
Reed knows about the plot to kill him,
how its because of his wife potentially escaping Reality 1720 with his TECH:
Originally posted by Mr MasterPretty much.
Ignorance, supported by further ignorance.Yea, I think Proteus warped like a city or something similar,
I don't think it was even a Planet.
But unlike those others,
I won't demean the cat's possibility at being Global until I'm sure.What should I be expecting?
I'll get it if its note worthy.
He's also crossed over into universes... that's all I can think of that is even worth mentioning...
Well, in first issue, the zombies ate Ego, and Hulk thunderclapped Thanos's head to kill him.
And well.. it's Zombies! Awesome!
Anyway,
Reed as always has it all figured out,
he helped Susan get her hands on his personal version of the UN,
Susan as expected uses it thinking she will erase that Dimension and survive:
So that Universe (1720) is erased from existence:
"The Whole Dimesnion ... it's gone"
Heather is hoping it's another glitch, like the one earlier concerning Proteus:
"Don't believe your eyes woman,
Don't trust these systems, THEY'VE GLITCHED for you before"
Then Reality 1720 is re-created anew:
And yes, this was Reed's plan, and he used his TECH to accomplish it:
Originally posted by Mr Master
Anyway,Reed as always has it all figured out,
he helped Susan get her hands on his personal version of the UN,
Susan as expected uses it thinking she will erase that Dimension and survive:
Cool scans Mr. M., but question for you (off-topic): Since you have shown scans of the U.N. in alternate realities recreating their whole universe, and the U.N. of universe 616 (Galactus "prime" if you will) recreating the multiverse as a whole, with Galactus stating that the U.N. is part of himself, wouldn't that imply that the Galactus of 616 is really multiversal in nature? If a part of him can recreate the entire multiverse, and even a lesser version can create that individual reality's universe...
Originally posted by Kutulu
Cool scans Mr. M.
🙂 Just wanted to clear up the Proteus bull-hype.
Originally posted by Kutulu
Since you have shown scans of the U.N. in alternate realities recreating their whole universe, and the U.N. of universe 616 (Galactus "prime" if you will) recreating the multiverse as a whole, with Galactus stating that the U.N. is part of himself, wouldn't that imply that the Galactus of 616 is really multiversal in nature? If a part of him can recreate the entire multiverse,
Imo, Galactus has the potential to = the totality of Eternity (multiverse)
Galan merged with the previous Universe (IB)
from the previous universe came the current Omniverse.
It's not a strecth at all to place Galactus at a Multiversal level concerning his potential.
Galactus already has a Universe's worth of energy inside him,
this is why when he returned to his natural state,
he became a Star that will radiate energy outward forever.
heck, one of his would be Heralds wclaimed he was the embodiment of a Cosmos.
Originally posted by Kutulu
and even a lesser version can create that individual reality's universe...
Actually K,
Reed's tech had nothing to do with the UN,
I just said that cause it did what the UN can do (erase & re-create Space & Time)
the UN is on a whole nother scale.
But I guess dubbing it a "lesser version" isn't far off.
Good Lord you love to type a lot.
As usual, you're not sticking to the topic, and apparently think arguing Proteus' lack of significance in that story arc proves anything.
Firstly, you're again ignoring the fact that the Omniscient Narrator's words coincide with what he's capable of in the simulation. In case you didn't know, the Omniscient Narrator = all knowing. What he says = fact unless retconned. Meaning, even if you were correct about the simulation being wrong, the statement "possibly the most powerful being in creation" still stands, which would put Proteus in the same league as beings like the Living Tribunal.
Secondly, your argument that the simulation (that the Omniscient Narrator labels as what would actually happen) was wrong is essentially this:
Premise 1: The simulation labelled Proteus as the immediate threat.
Premise 2: We then see that it is in fact Earth 1720 that is the immediate threat.
Conclusion: The simulation was therefore somehow glitched, and what it shows us is wrong.
Not only can I directly disprove your conclusion wrong, by pointing out that the Omniscient Narrator's words coincide with what the simulation shows us (your attempt at a deduction doesn't disprove words from an all knowing being), but your major premise #1 is completely flawed, because, you're -as usual- misinterpreting the comics. The simulation doesn't label Proteus the immediate threat in any way, I really don't know where you got that from; it's simply showing the Exiles what would happen if Proteus were to regain his memories. Thus, it doesn't dispute with the fact that the immediate threat was on Earth 1720, meaning your argument that the simulation (and the Omniscient Narrator by default!) are wrong collapses.
Thirdly, Proteus isn't mentioned again after issue #1? I'll assume you were referring to issue #90, well, at least you're proving something! That you skim reads through your comics. He's actually mentioned in the latest issue of X-Men: Die by the Sword, when Morph is laying the Smackdown on Jaspers Reborn, and the narrator brings up how a part of him deep down enjoys it.
Lastly, as for your claim that Proteus wanted access to the entire Omniverse for the purpose of Mass Destruction, well you're again ignoring his immediate goal. As the simulation which depicts the future shows us, we know that Proteus had plans of such Mass Destruction in the long term sense, but as I've already explained, his immediate plan was to find a body that could sustain his energies. Immediate plans outweigh long term plans, meaning that my original point stands, which is that the fact that Proteus not displaying an Omniversal level of power doesn't mean that he doesn't have it.
Originally posted by Ultra OmegaArgument from silence much?
Anyways Mr Master, given that you haven't responded, can I treat this as you conceding your argument? Otherwise a reply any time now would be great.
Was David Richards the name you used when you last visited here?
Hyperbole aside, Jaspers has this.
Originally posted by Creshosk
Argument from silence much?
How was that an argument from silence? I didn't conclude that he'd conceded simply because he had yet to reply, did I? That's right, I didn't, I simply asked whether such was the case, mainly because I knew that he had bee online since, had replied in other threads since, and strikes me as the type to reply to an argument that he was in the second he has the chance, if he can that is.
Was David Richards the name you used when you last visited here?
Excuse me? Good god, what is it with this forum and its wild and false accusations.
Hyperbole aside, Jaspers has this.
Here's a tip; use words when you know what they mean! 👆
Originally posted by Ultra Omega
How was that an argument from silence? I didn't conclude that he'd conceded simply because he had yet to reply, did I?
Originally posted by Ultra Omega
Anyways Mr Master, given that you haven't responded, can I treat this as you conceding your argument?
Originally posted by Ultra OmegaJustify it however you want, doesn't change what it is.
That's right, I didn't, I simply asked whether such was the case, mainly because I knew that he had bee online since, had replied in other threads since, and strikes me as the type to reply to an argument that he was in the second he has the chance, if he can that is.
Originally posted by Ultra OmegaOf course you wouldn't admit to it. Socking is a bannable offense.
Excuse me? Good god, what is it with this forum and its wild and false accusations.
Originally posted by Ultra OmegaHere's a tip: Don't assume that a person doesn't know what a word is simply because you don't like the implications.
Here's a tip; use words when you know what they mean! 👆
"The most powerful being in creation" is nothing more than an extravagant exaggeration. How many being have been called this?
So no, extravagant exaggerations on your part aside, Jaspers wins. because he's shown a great level of power that Proteus did not.
Originally posted by Creshosk
Justify it however you want, doesn't change what it is.
Sure it doesn't, but apparently you don't quite know what that is.
An argument from silence makes a conclusion based on a lack of given information. I didn't make a conclusion, I was simply asking whether I could treat his non-reply as him conceding the argument.
I didn't say: "because you haven't replied, it means that you therefore concede the argument"
^That would be an argument from silence, know what you're talking about, fool.
Of course you wouldn't admit to it. Socking is a bannable offense.
There's nothing to admit.
Here's a tip: Don't assume that a person doesn't know what a word is simply because you don't like the implications.
Use a word wrongly, and it's a fair assumption. Hyperbole is only used when the meaning is not fixed, and up for variation.
"The most powerful being in creation" is nothing more than an extravagant exaggeration. How many being have been called this?
"Possibly the most powerful being in creation," actually, and no, that quite simply isn't subject to hyperbole, considering the fixed meaning of the sentence.
Further supporting the fact that it's not hyperbole is the fact that in the same definitive "What If?" future that Proteus is labelled as such, he is stated to at some point be responsible for the end of creation.
How many beings have been called this? None in a place outside of space-time where "Creation" would be taking into account the entire Omniverse from the perspective of a group of Super Heroes that deal with mentioned Omniverse...
So no, extravagant exaggerations on your part aside, Jaspers wins. because he's shown a great level of power that Proteus did not.
Saying that he's more powerful simply because he has displayed such is as fallacious as it gets. Absence of proof is not proof of absence. Provide proof of the necessity or drop the point. In case you didn't get that, I'm telling you that unless there is a need to display such a level of power, the fact that one doesn't means nothing. As already explained, Proteus' immediate goal after learning of the countless other Realities was to find the perfect host to contain his power, and he found that host in Morph (hell the fact that it took the body of a changeling to even contain his power speaks volumes alone). After doing so, The Exiles shortly restrained him with a device that buried all of Proteus' memories and personalities (his own and the different people he had at once possessed) except for that of his current host's: Morph's. He, at that point in time, had no need for a mass display of his powers.
