Admiral Firmus Piett

Calling a spade a spade is no flame; it was all part of my argument.

You seem to have run out of anything to argue back, which is fair enough as it was a bankrupt position anyway.

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That's the ANH Ties you are talking about there, Melkor, The ROTJ TIEs got shown down in vast numbers.

I've never understood this myth about the 'Rebel Solider' either. Might have been a tad obvious if Leia was travelling around with people in Rebel uniform on board, yet all kinds of sources tend to report people in that uniform as such.

Those people were Organa's Guard and the equivalent of marines on board the ship. Considering Alderan is a pacifist world, little wonder they were not much good.

And so again, we must match troopers versus Ewoks, and see the troopers lose. So it's not just heroes they lose to. They really are... awful.

Calling a spade a spade is no flame; it was all part of my argument.

No, calling someone insane, telling them they need their head examined, and calling someone stupid are all personal attacks, and are flaming. I'm amazed at how this forum can runwhen the people meant to enforce the rules have no regard for them.

And so again, we must match troopers versus Ewoks, and see the troopers lose. So it's not just heroes they lose to. They really are... awful.

The ewoks are part of the the heroes, it still falls into that category of good guys always winning. In ANH Ben Kenobi speaks of the accuracy and precision of stormtroopers. They aren't bad, just victims of the good guys win rule.

Originally posted by fascistcrusader
No, calling someone insane, telling them they need their head examined, and calling someone stupid are all personal attacks, and are flaming. I'm amazed at how this forum can runwhen the people meant to enforce the rules have no regard for them.

The ewoks are part of the the heroes, it still falls into that category of good guys always winning. In ANH Ben Kenobi speaks of the accuracy and precision of stormtroopers. They aren't bad, just victims of the good guys win rule.

Did it ever occur to you that the people running the forum might have a better idea of the rules than you?

And, uh, Ewoks are part of the heroes? Not so much. They're teddy bears. Primitive teddy bears. Who, admittedly, have an advantage in that forest isn't the best place for stormies, but still.

It doesn't matter if they are victims of that rule or not- it is not as if mystical Gods intervened on the good guys' side. The way the 'good guys win' rule came out was that the Rebels were clearly considerably better than the Imperials in that fight, who were rubbish.

You call it flaming, I call it a comment on the nature of your argument. Of course you want to call it flaming because you are the butt od it, but that's your fault for advancing it. If you don;t want to risk being ridiculed, then don't post at all. As it is, my post was not flaming- no matter what you sayp as it was all part of my arguing. Grow a thicker skin.

Further comments from you on this will be considered off-topic. Talk about it privately if you desperately feel the need.

But why we HAVE to judge them based on ROTJ? And why is the performance of Ties in ROTJ more official than in ANH? It was just one big disaster for Imperials in ROTJ, and destiny was not on their side, if they always performed that bad Alliance would have won long ago.

Besides, even in your roleplaying game Stormtroopers aren`t the worst, they are "average" mooks. And some of the Imperial NPC`s seemed competent. So the Imperial miltary, while based on numbers and firepower rather than finesse, is hardly totally worthless.

Did it ever occur to you that the people running the forum might have a better idea of the rules than you?

No, it hadn't. That's because the mods I've had discussions with all act like spoiled children, and bend the rules when they are called out on breaking them.

And, uh, Ewoks are part of the heroes? Not so much. They're teddy bears. Primitive teddy bears. Who, admittedly, have an advantage in that forest isn't the best place for stormies, but still.

No, they are teddy bears helping out the alliance, making them part of the group of heroes.

it is not as if mystical Gods intervened on the good guys' side.

Cough..The story's writer..cough.

Originally posted by Lord Melkor
But why we HAVE to judge them based on ROTJ? And why is the performance of Ties in ROTJ more official than in ANH? It was just one big disaster for Imperials in ROTJ, and destiny was on their side, if they always performed that bad Alliance would have won long ago.

Besides, even in your roleplaying game Stormtroopers aren`t the worst, they are "average" mooks. And some of the Imperial NPC`s seemed competent. So the Imperial miltary, while based on numbers and firepower rather than finesse, is hardly totally worthless.

Well they are only average in that Battle Droids are even worse. But my game is differently calibrated from the films to make it playable. Same as all these Dark Jedi running around in the PT. Something I have always made clear- despite my respect for canon, my games are not entirely so else they would be unplayable.

ROTJ is the later film, which gives it a certain precedence in being the most recent comment, and unless you say the fleet suddenly got worse, you simply cannot reject the on-screen fact that... that is how bad the fleet actually turned out to be.

ROTJ is a mess, but it is a canonical mess.

Originally posted by fascistcrusader
Cough..The story's writer..cough.

Who sets the reality of it. And his reality of it was that the Rebels were better, not that things randomly went their way.

Who sets the reality of it. And his reality of it was that the Rebels were better, not that things randomly went their way.

No, even according to Lucas the Rebels were greatly outmatched, and the vctory at Endor was an amazing, one in a million miracle.

Outmatched in numbers. But... err... they won through skill and being better. On Endor they won absolutely, and in space the Emperor's plan entirely failed to stop them... simply destroying the Death Star, AND the Imperial flagship, AND at least one other Star Destroyer, with barely any losses at all except from blasts fired by the Death Star itself.

It truly was a display of the Imperials being rubbish. The Rebels won because they were better; the extreme casualty ratio is outright proof of that.

You cannot run away from it- the Imperials were dreadful.

Outmatched in numbers. But... err... they won through skill and being better. On Endor they won absolutely, and in space the Emperor's plan entirely failed to stop them... simply destroying the Death Star, AND the Imperial flagship, AND at least one other Star Destroyer, with barely any losses at all except from blasts fired by the Death Star itself.

Which other Star Destroyer did they get? I don't recall anything but the DS and the Executor going down. I do recall, however, a whole lot of rebel fighters blasted into oblivion. In fact it was one of these downed fighters, through nothing but blind luck, that took out the Executor.

It truly was a display of the Imperials being rubbish. The Rebels won because they were better; the extreme casualty ratio is outright proof of that.

No, it was a display of the heroes winning because they can't lose. The Empire didn't just get stupid all of a sudden between ESB and ROtJ, they lost because they were doomed by the will of Lucas.

not run away from it- the Imperials were dreadful.

No, I'm afraid its you who can't run away from the fact that the Imperials were great, but the God of the Galaxy, George Lucas, didn't let them win.

Well, I would argue that your games fit the potrayal of Imperials in ANH and ESB more than ROTJ, Ush, so I wouldn`t say they are against cannon.

Frankly, I like to believe that the real struggle in ROTJ was between Dark and Light Side. Imperials couldn`t win the battle, strorywise, because Luke saved Vader, the Chosen One, and the Emperor was defeated. Just like Jedi couldn`t save themselves from Clonetroopers in ROTS because the Chosen One has fallen. Realism is secondary to story and mythology. Will of the Force trumps all.

FascistCrusader, you can present your points in less agressive way.

A handful of Rebel fighrers goes down, compared to many, many TIEs. meanwhile, go back and watch again properly. You will see another ISD going up. Clearly if you;'ve not paid that much attention you are not in a great position to comment.

(Regarding the Executor- it was a crash that took out the bridge, sure, but the Executor was already virtually defeated; the Rebels had destroyed the shield generator. It was thus made fatally vulnerable. The Imperials achieved no such success in return, the fighters failing to down a single ship).

Once more- this thing about the Heroes not losing. This is not routed, plot-wise, through magic. It is routed by them, ultimately, being better.

Geroge Lucas wanted to demonstrate that, actually, they had great weakness. It's precisely why he had the Ewoks beat them. That was his plan from the start.

You are in simple denial. The uselessness of the Empire has long been plain. if you want to hide in a world of your own imagining, fine., But in GL's world... they were not good enough to beat a tiny Rebel force and a bunch of spear-wielding primitives. Fact, undeniable.

Originally posted by Lord Melkor
Imperials couldn`t win the battle, strorywise, because Luke saved Vader, the Chosen One, and the Emperor was defeated.

Problem with that- they had already lost before it hapopened.

The Rebels had already started the inevitable destruction of the Death Star.

(Regarding the Executor- it was a crash that took out the bridge, sure, but the Executor was already virtually defeated; the Rebels had destroyed the shield generator. It was thus made fatally vulnerable. The Imperials achieved no such success in return, the fighters failing to down a single ship).

Except they didn't do anything but take out the bridge's deflector shield, the rest of the ship was in prime condition and could have wiped out Home One. The only reason it went down was because the Death Star's gravity well pulled it in before the secondary command center was fully activated.

You are in simple denial. The uselessness of the Empire has long been plain. if you want to hide in a world of your own imagining, fine., But in GL's world... they were not good enough to beat a tiny Rebel force and a bunch of spear-wielding primitives. Fact, undeniable.

No, the fact is that the Empire should have won, Lucas himself admits this, and that the Empire is great. Look at ANH and ESB. Stop living in your own fanatsy world and see the truth.

Also, this is supposed to be an appreciation thread for the Admiral, not a place for rebel fanboys to try to bash the Empire. Back on topic.

That's EU talk again- stop that. In the film we see it clear- with the shield down it was fatally vulnerable.

That's EU talk again- stop that. In the film we see it clear- with the shield down it was fatally vulnerable.

No it isn't, that's straight from the film. Did you listen to anything said in the battle? Its made quite clear only the bridge lost its shield, and that the executor would have been fine if it hadn't been pulled into the Death Star.

Also, see above, this whole debate is of topic.

I don`t remember that well- at what moment with regard to the Throne Room scene the destruction of the Death Star was trully inevitable? I prefer to think that this is connected- Millienium Falcon wouldn`t make it if the Sith weren`t destroyed. Emperor was blind to the ascendance of the Light Side, and this incompetence inflected his minions. It kind of fits to me, and mirrors PT in a way.

Originally posted by fascistcrusader
No, the fact is that the Empire should have won, Lucas himself admits this, and that the Empire is great. Look at ANH and ESB. Stop living in your own fanatsy world and see the truth.

Also, this is supposed to be an appreciation thread for the Admiral, not a place for rebel fanboys to try to bash the Empire. Back on topic.

ANH? Where they lost the Death Star and hence, ultimately, their entire existence? Yeah, great.

GL doesn't say they should have won as if he made a mistake. He only means the odds favoured them- but rhe reality of it was that they were rubbish. Again- plan, on-screen, lost to Ewoks, fact undeniable. He very clearly talks about wanting to show that with the Ewoks; it was a Vietnam allegory. Despite apparent strength, the fragility of the Imperials is exposed by their primitive foes.

As for Piett- as I say before. He never actually did a single useful thing other than report a possible location of the Rebels.