Originally posted by ExodusCloak
Uncanny X-Men Annual #13
Oops 😮 it's actually:
Uncanny X-Men Annual #12(Jan 1988)
By Chris Claremont(Writer) and Art Adams(Pencils).
http://www.marvel.com/digitalcomics/titles/X-Men_Annual.1970.12
Originally posted by ExodusCloak
Uncanny X-Men Annual #13
Oops 😮 it's actually:
Uncanny X-Men Annual #12(Jan 1988)
By Chris Claremont(Writer) and Art Adams(Pencils).
http://www.marvel.com/digitalcomics/titles/X-Men_Annual.1970.12
Originally posted by ExodusCloak
I knew he was a fat alien. 😛See I think that's where highlighting the difference between Terminus being knocked out and Garrok inside the Terminus Armour being knocked out(Or however you interpret the scene) makes all the difference. By omitting the Garrok part it makes the feat even more impressive especially when you consider some of the attacks the fat alien in the armour has recovered from. Garroks durability isn't all that so even if we do take it as being knocked out or disorientated from the collision it's well within Storms abilities. So to bring it full circle I don't think the vast majority of people would have a problem with the feat if they knew all the details.
Originally posted by ExodusCloak
I knew he was a fat alien. 😛See I think that's where highlighting the difference between Terminus being knocked out and Garrok inside the Terminus Armour being knocked out(Or however you interpret the scene) makes all the difference. By omitting the Garrok part it makes the feat even more impressive especially when you consider some of the attacks the fat alien in the armour has recovered from. Garroks durability isn't all that so even if we do take it as being knocked out or disorientated from the collision it's well within Storms abilities. So to bring it full circle I don't think the vast majority of people would have a problem with the feat if they knew all the details.
How do you know what Garrok's durability is as opposed to The alien Terminus(Armor) when both simple utilize the armor?
Is it not the armor/technology which grants the durability and strength?
You seem to be making a judgement that Garroks durability is less since Storm was able to knock him out.
This leads me to the conclusion that if it was the "real Terminus" then somehow the feat would be invalidated since it's already been assumed that it's out of Storm's ability to knock him out.
It's the same way people on here try to almost rewrite a panel and fix it so they can reconcile their ill-concieved ill-informed notions of what her ability is.
Originally posted by 2damnloud
How do you know what Garrok's durability is as opposed to The alien Terminus(Armor) when both simple utilize the armor?Is it not the armor/technology which grants the durability and strength?
You seem to be making a judgement that Garroks durability is less since Storm was able to knock him out.
This leads me to the conclusion that if it was the "real Terminus" then somehow the feat would be invalidated since it's already been assumed that it's out of Storm's ability to knock him out.
It's the same way people on here try to almost rewrite a panel and fix it so they can reconcile their ill-concieved ill-informed notions of what her ability is.
I've seen Garrok knocked back by less. 😬
If you look at the link you provided you'll see that the fat alien fits snug in the whole Terminus Armour.
Garrok is tiny compared to the fat alien it's not so much armour for him its more like him sitting in a truck. No matter how durable the truck is on collision if it were to roll or spin the passenger inside will definitely feel nauseous or disorientated. If it were to hit something the passenger would definitely feel a jerking force even if they're strapped in. And if the person isn't strapped in properly they could hit against the insides of the truck and knock themselves out that way.
Point being it wasn't the real Terminus and if it were Storms average power showing would have to be portrayed at that constant level for it not to be considered PIS. But that really doesn't matter because it wasn't the real Terminus.
Off the record: IMO Her average showing(Low showings(Taken down by humans and beat by human clubs) , Medium Showings(Tornados, Lightning) and High showings(merging with the spirit of the Galactic Core a feat which is only replicable in the Galactic Core)) it would be considered out of her league. 😬
Originally posted by ExodusCloak
Off the record: IMO Her average showing(Low showings(Taken down by humans and beat by human clubs) , Medium Showings(Tornados, Lightning) and High showings(merging with the spirit of the Galactic Core a feat which is only replicable in the Galactic Core)) it would be considered out of her league. 😬
The link also said that there are inconsistencies on how Terminus is portrayed.
Your conclusion is based on the Affirming the consequent fallacy.
If Storm is able to hurl Terminus without it being a bloated alien, then it means the armor was lighter, The armor was obviously lighter in weight because Garrok was in it, so Storm was able to hurl him through the air into the mountain.
All of this under the assumption that Terminus, the alien would make a substantial difference in Storm's ability to move him.
All of this because of the presumed, ill-concieved and ill-informed notion of what Storm's power level is.
PS. Your interpretation of her "average", "medium" and "high" showings are preposturous and your continued misrepresentaion/ blatant revision of the GC feat further illustrate the point Rutog98, jmcnasty, and I were trying to make.
Originally posted by 2damnloud
The link also said that there are inconsistencies on how Terminus is portrayed.Your conclusion is based on the Affirming the consequent fallacy.
If Storm is able to hurl Terminus without it being a bloated alien, then it means the armor lighter, The armor was obviously lighter in weight because Garrok was in it, so Storm was able to hurl him through the air into the mountain.
All of this under the assumption that Terminus, the alien would make a substantial difference in Storm's ability to move him.
You misunderstand. My point isn't even about Storm being able to hurl the Terminus armour. But you are right the armour would be lighter. And whether or not Storms powers would work on a being who knows how to utilize the armour to its fullest is also questionable but that's not what's being discussed.
I was refering to you equating Garrok in the Terminus armour being knocked out/disorientated to Terminus(Fat Alien) in the armour being knocked out or disorientated. These two things are not the same.
Originally posted by ExodusCloak
You misunderstand. My point isn't even about Storm being able to hurl the Terminus armour. But you are right the armour would be lighter. And whether or not Storms powers would work on a being who knows how to utilize the armour to its fullest is also questionable but that's not what's being discussed.I was refering to you equating Garrok in the Terminus armour being knocked out/disorientated to Terminus(Fat Alien) in the armour being knocked out or disorientated. These two things are not the same.
What is the presumed "fullest extent" of the armor and how would it have served him?
Originally posted by 2damnloud
What is the presumed "fullest extent" of the armor and how would it have served him?
Take a soldier for example. They know how to use a gun and they've had practice using a gun. Take a person whose never used a gun and give them a gun. The person with practice is obviously going to be better at using the gun as they've been doing this for years. They will know it's full capabilities.
Considering this thing got trashed by Rogue(With Longshots and Colossus powers) and has given the Avengers a lot trouble when used right you'd presume that Fat Alien with suit is more capable then Garrok with suit. Unless you're saying that Garrok with suit is = To Giant Fat Alien with suit?
It's the same with an Infinity Gem, you may have it but if you don't know how to use it then what use is it.
Originally posted by ExodusCloak
Take a soldier for example. They know how to use a gun and they've had practice using a gun. Take a person whose never used a gun and give them a gun. The person with practice is obviously going to be better at using the gun as they've been doing this for years. They will know it's full capabilities.
Considering this thing got trashed by Rogue(With Longshots and Colossus powers) and has given the Avengers a lot trouble when used right you'd presume that Fat Alien with suit is more capable then Garrok with suit. Unless you're saying that Garrok with suit is = To Giant Fat Alien with suit?
It's the same with an Infinity Gem, you may have it but if you don't know how to use it then what use is it.
A lot to assume and not enough substantial evidence.
For instance, the soldier analogies doesn't really apply because iirc Garrok felt compelled to use the armor and I think t took over his mind. I have to read the story again.
It wasn't a matter of person picking up something and using it without knowledge, the object was effectively using Garrok.
And on the page with info on Terminus is said that the "big fat alien" was retconned/revealed to be someone named Jorro or something.
It's a question of whether Terminus is a being in the armor or is it the armor itself.
Or look at the green lanterns.. the more experienced ones pull off greater feats due to inexperience.
Or Sodam Yat who didn't know he had heat vision at one point in time. Uub as opposed to Buu. You also have the differences between The Venoms, The Eddie Brock venom was better. You don't simply slap a power on a person and expect them to use it as well as the person who's been using it longer.
If you were to give a random nobody from off the street Storm's powers would they be able to use them as well as Storm can now? Or would due to the experience of using it for the majority of her life Storm would be able to use her weather manipulation powers better than Joe Shmoe?
Originally posted by 2damnloud
A lot to assume and not enough substantial evidence.For instance, the soldier analogies doesn't really apply because iirc Garrok felt compelled to use the armor and I think t took over his mind. I have to read the story again.
It wasn't a matter of person picking up something and using it without knowledge, the object was effectively using Garrok.
And on the page with info on Terminus is said that the "big fat alien" was retconned/revealed to be someone named Jorro or something.
It's a question of whether Terminus is a being in the armor or is it the armor itself.
Jorro was another alien he wasn't part of the Termini race. Terminus is a giant alien/metallic being too so either way it still doesn't make a difference. Jorro duplicated Terminus armour and claimed to be Terminus. Then Garrok was coaxed into Jorros Armour and attacked the X-Men. So if he was mind controlled it would have been down to Jorro not Terminus. It also says that Terminus is a stage 4 terminoid whose abilities are enhanced due to millions of years of experience. Jorro wouldn't have been able to replicate that experience.
The real Terminus was elsewhere and took on Quasar. He then evolved into his Stage 5 form a much stronger form and became Ulterminus.
The duplicate armour/Jorros armour was then destroyed by Antartic Vibranium in the Savage Land. Jorro and Garrok in the duplicate Terminus suit aren't the real Pre-Upgrade Terminus and are unable to replicate his 10, 000 years of experience.(He conquered Planets) Terminus got a mega upgrade afterwards when he took on Thor and the Avengers aswell.
A lot of writers never liked the X-Men back then so the fact that the team were reduced to fighting watered down villians is understandable. Even when the X-Men took on Doctor Doom in UXM(Roguestorm) he turned out to retconned into a Doombot. And in Secret Wars when Spiderman took the team down.
Originally posted by ExodusCloak
Jorro was another alien he wasn't part of the Termini race. Terminus is a giant alien/metallic being too so either way it still doesn't make a difference. Jorro duplicated Terminus armour and claimed to be Terminus. Then Garrok was coaxed into Jorros Armour and attacked the X-Men. So if he was mind controlled it would have been down to Jorro not Terminus. It also says that Terminus is a stage 4 terminoid whose abilities are enhanced due to millions of years of experience. Jorro wouldn't have been able to replicate that experience.
The real Terminus was elsewhere and took on Quasar. He then evolved into his Stage 5 form a much stronger form and became Ulterminus.The duplicate armour/Jorros armour was then destroyed by Antartic Vibranium in the Savage Land. Jorro and Garrok in the duplicate Terminus suit aren't the real Pre-Upgrade Terminus and are unable to replicate his 10, 000 years of experience.(He conquered Planets) Terminus got a mega upgrade afterwards when he took on Thor and the Avengers aswell.
A lot of writers never liked the X-Men back then so the fact that the team were reduced to fighting watered down villians is understandable. Even when the X-Men took on Doctor Doom in UXM(Roguestorm) he turned out to retconned into a Doombot. And in Secret Wars when Spiderman took the team down.
About the Dr. Doom thing, the reason John Byrne retconned it to a Doombot is because he did not like what Doom allowed Arcade to get away with. One instance that he cited was when Arcade lit a match using Doom's armor. He felt that Doom should have killed Arcade. It had nothing to do with Storm going to town. I read this on the old AOL message boards when Byrne was in one of the rooms that talked about X-Men: The Hidden Years.
Nice try, but no cigar.
Also, the villains were not watered down for the X-Men. CC had long established Storm as being uberpower and up there with the PF.
Only an uberpowered being up there with the Phoenix force could fight an copied suit of armor piloted by an amateur. And Spider-man.
Wait, why would someone openly say "I hate the X-Men" as the reason for retconning Doom into a Doombot? I'm not saying they really did back then, but I doubt the writers would outright say it if they did hate them.
Originally posted by Rutog98
About the Dr. Doom thing, the reason John Byrne retconned it to a Doombot is because he did not like what Doom allowed Arcade to get away with. One instance that he cited was when Arcade lit a match using Doom's armor. He felt that Doom should have killed Arcade. It had nothing to do with Storm going to town. I read this on the old AOL message boards when Byrne was in one of the rooms that talked about X-Men: The Hidden Years.Nice try, but no cigar.
Also, the villains were not watered down for the X-Men. CC had long established Storm as being uberpower and up there with the PF.
Originally posted by Doctor-Alvis
Wait, why would someone openly say "I hate the X-Men" as the reason for retconning Doom into a Doombot? I'm not saying they really did back then, but I doubt the writers would outright say it if they did hate them.
Nah I meant Jim Shooter. I don't think he outright said he hated the X-Men. Jim Shooter(Secret Wars) said he didn't find them very interesting IRRC. And he was the Editor back then.
As for the Byrne thing. I never said it was retconned because of Storm, it was retconned because Claremont has this tendency to play around with other peoples toys and utilize them badly. Byrne who was writing the FF at the time was unimpressed with the way Claremont portrayed Doom in that arc both with Arcade and Dooms so called loss to X-Men. Doom came out of that incident looking like he lost and Byrne didn't like that therefore retconning that defeat. The X-Men were considered a B-Level team back then when compared to the FF Avengers etc.. and Byrne didn't like that Doom got beat by a B-level team. There was a lot of bad blood between Byrne and Claremont around that time.
Anyway here's an interview where the writers and editors and artists compare the Phoenix to the rest of the UXM team(Wolverine, Nightcrawler, Colossus, Cyclops and Storm) and the problems they faced in balancing the power of such a character vs. making the others redundant/5th Wheels. I thought it was interesting.(April 1984) 😖hifty:
Continued in next post:
Originally posted by 2damnloud
I doubt he was an amateur since the suite took over his mind.He was being used by the armor which even further attest to the fact that is Terminus the armor or a bein in armor??
Originally posted by 2damnloud
He was being used by the armor which even further attest to the fact that is Terminus the armor or a bein in armor??
In the bio it states that Terminus was elsewhere when Jarro was destroying the Savage Land. Terminus is another being in/merged with a different armour. He isn't Jarros armour. Note the bio says that the only thing he summons from the remains of Jarros armour is his javelin/staff thing. After Terminus re-surfaced and got beat by Quasar the ruined Jarro Armour was still lying in the Savage Land and Ka-zar and Captain America stumbled across it when A.I.M rebuilt it.
Terminus is a different being in armour who's part organic and part metallic.
The Jarro armour is more like a mecha-robot due to it having a passenger seat and everything.
