Originally posted by LordKaos
One question, since much of the story took place in the M'Kraan crystal and the WHR, is this considered cannon for the Phoenix/Jean, I mean I would personally call it that because the two places are nexus points for the entire multiverse and possibly the omniverse. Just curious.
I think it could be or probably is, since it's probably the nexus of all realities.
Originally posted by Mr Master
Vulcan breaks into the White Hot Room,
kills all the Phoenix Avatars,
and seemingly usurps the Phoenix Force's powers too.
It was said, first he took their powers then he burned them.
Originally posted by id369
We must be reading different what if issues.
Vulcan did not break in the white hot room.He ascended into the White Hot Room, because he became the new PF avatar.
Though overtaking the other PF avatars power was vary unexpected. Hm…I wonder if it has to do with his energy manipulation?
I think, because it's what if and they had to find some way for him to get the Phoenix Force.
Originally posted by Xplosive
It was said, first he took their powers then he burned them.I think, because it's what if and they had to find some way for him to get the Phoenix Force.
1) Vulcan never realizes he was in White Hot Room, not until it was pointed out. Only feels a surge of power.
2) Then you have unknown avatar, protesting he cant be in the room. That he isn’t worthy of the PF.
The WHR Is located inside the M'Kraan Crystal. Vulcan enters the WHR through the M'Kraan Crystal the same way Xavier did. The same way Psylocke and Rachel did. The same way Jamie did.
You then have Kid Omega protest that he's not supposed to be here that he would have been better off had he died in his Mothers Womb.
Then you have Vulcan feel the power steal it, kill every member of the Phoenix Corps and steal Rachel and Korvus' Force.
He absorbs the entire Force and can hear Jean inside him. The force is consuming him similar to how it did with Emma in Endsong. The Force reacts poorly to negative emotions and this was picked up in Warsong when Celeste was able to act as a host. After a fight with his family he gives up the Force releasing it and then dying. He then lands up in the WHR and see's "Jean Force" appear.
Anyway since the WHR is the nexus of all realities I guess it's only Kid Vulcan and Jean in the WHR now.
It all seemed like on of those things the Phoenix/Jean was expecting. He was allowed by the Phoenix/Jean to get as far as he did, hence her asking him in the beginning what he wanted, he got what he wanted, revenge and power, turns out all he wanted was to be loved, she burned away Vulcan, until only Gabriel was left and gave him what he wanted a second chance at growing up knowing that his family cared about him he was at peace. As the for the Phoenix corps, there is no reason to think that any of them are dead permanently they are the Phoenix corps and were already in the hospital when he "killed" them. Jamie never entered the WHR, he was viewing it from Otherworld and managed to pull Psylocke and Rachel out of it. How Rachel and Psylocke ended up there is a mystery, but it wasn't the same way Xavier or Vulcan did, since the Crystal was not present during HoM.
Originally posted by LordKaos
As the for the Phoenix corps, there is no reason to think that any of them are dead permanently they are the Phoenix corps and were already in the hospital when he "killed" them.
Difference here is he wiped out the souls of those Phoenix Corps in the WHR and then absorbed their power and then killed them. The souls of the dead "Phoenixes" go there and wait to be reborn. Vulcan wiped them out so who knows how that works. With no soul there's no way of coming back. Having your physical form destroyed is one thing. Having your soul form destroyed is another.
Originally posted by LordKaos
Jean's body is in the WHR and Quentin Quire no longer has a body, so far the only beings to have been seen in the WHR have been corporeal.
Jeans soul was in the WHR in Here Comes Tommorrow. Here body was only transported to the WHR during the events in Endsong.
QQ still has a body which is lying in the mansion. His "soul" however is well was in the WHR until it got destroyed. Jean is the only Phoenix who ascended to the WHR with both body and soul.
Originally posted by LordKaos
Jean's body was in the Phoenix egg on the moon, it hatched all the other stuff happened and said body was taken into the WHR.
IRRC I don't remember, it's been a while since I read that arc but did they say her body was placed in the Phoenix Egg? Her body was buried in a grave, Emma and Scott stood over it before the events of HCT occured. So how would her body have gotten from her grave site on Earth to the Moon in a Phoenix Egg? Would the Phoenix Egg not just be the Force manifesting as Jean and finally being whole again?
After that Jean amputated the timeline 616 was back on track.
Then the Force came to Earth to look for its fragments( Apparently it considers Jeans Body one of those fragments) in Endsong and took it to the WHR.
Also in Classic X-Men #43 she died and became a White Phoenix and met death her physcial body was placed in a grave then as well IRRC so I presume it was her soul that met death.
IMO he did not ascend he broke in and claimed the energy for himself. In the WHR we must assume that the Phoenix is in it's natural state, energy without consciousness, explaining why Necrom was able to use a piece of it without being possessed . It appears that hosts/avatars serve as the consciousness of the Phoenix as it usually only speaks through them or by assuming their forms, it is merely a force governed by power and passion, the immune system of creation. That's why it can be swayed, used and confused, outside of it's hosts/avatar and when not doing Phoenix work, it only knows longing and will do anything to feel and be once it is manifested on the physical plane.
Originally posted by ExodusCloak
IRRC I don't remember, it's been a while since I read that arc but did they say her body was placed in the Phoenix Egg? Her body was buried in a grave, Emma and Scott stood over it before the events of HCT occured. So how would her body have gotten from her grave site on Earth to the Moon in a Phoenix Egg? Would the Phoenix Egg not just be the Force manifesting as Jean and finally being whole again?After that Jean amputated the timeline 616 was back on track.
Then the Force came to Earth to look for its fragments( Apparently it considers Jeans Body one of those fragments) in Endsong and took it to the WHR.
Also in Classic X-Men #43 she died and became a White Phoenix and met death her physcial body was placed in a grave then as well IRRC so I presume it was her soul that met death.
The body in the egg was the body that was used during the Phoenix saga, just like when Jean died her body was placed in a cocoon, she was released when her soul left the body that was killed and finally reconnected with her body. The egg was in the blue area of the moon where the other Jean died, and it was obviously a body and not a soul when it hatched, the body used during here comes tomorrow was not killed it materialized in the WHR after Jean began to remember who she was and what she was reborn to do.
Forgive me but I don't remember an instance when Jeans body was removed from the moon, there was only a grave site, just like Magneto being killed by Wolverine on Genosha, there was never a body buried even though Xavier was carrying a coffin around that was supposed to have one in it.
Originally posted by ExodusCloak
Difference here is he wiped out the souls of those Phoenix Corps in the WHR and then absorbed their power and then killed them. The souls of the dead "Phoenixes" go there and wait to be reborn. Vulcan wiped them out so who knows how that works. With no soul there's no way of coming back. Having your physical form destroyed is one thing. Having your soul form destroyed is another.
I think in either case, if Jean wants them back, she will ressurect them.
Now, Vulcan and Jean (she was before) are in in the WHR, also Gabriel body.
Originally posted by LordKaos
The body in the egg was the body that was used during the Phoenix saga, just like when Jean died her body was placed in a cocoon, she was released when her soul left the body that was killed and finally reconnected with her body. The egg was in the blue area of the moon where the other Jean died, and it was obviously a body and not a soul when it hatched, the body used during here comes tomorrow was not killed it materialized in the WHR after Jean began to remember who she was and what she was reborn to do.Forgive me but I don't remember an instance when Jeans body was removed from the moon, there was only a grave site, just like Magneto being killed by Wolverine on Genosha, there was never a body buried even though Xavier was carrying a coffin around that was supposed to have one in it.
If that is the case then it wasn't her real physical body in the HCT arc it was the Phoenix that created a duplicate of her body for her like it did in that Classic X-Men issue. And her real body was lying in her grave on Earth.
Fair point about her grave back then but it still doesn't change the fact that Quentin Quires body(Which we saw in Warsong) did not ascend to the WHR. Only his soul/"consciousness" did. His body is still lying in the basement. When Vulcan destroyed him. Vulcan absorbed his Phoenix powers and then attacked and destroyed Quentin in his soul form somehow.
Originally posted by Xplosive
I think in either case, if Jean wants them back, she will ressurect them.Now, Vulcan and Jean (she was before) are in in the WHR, also Gabriel body.
That's assuming she can ressurect something where no soul exists anymore and that they didn't create this story to get rid of more Phoenix convolution eg the Phoenix Corps.
I still think that if they were killed they can come back, if you can't reconstitute a soul in the heart of creation then what good are you? I also still stick to them not being souls in the sense of immaterial beings they have physical bodies as the WHR seems to be a "physical" place that can be access through ascension or getting passed the nightmare effect. One can also assume that Vulcan has no idea what he is talking about since he said he killed them, they are part of the Phoenix and the Phoenix was not destroyed it was temporarily absorbed. But no matter this can go on for days, and I just don't feel like it. Whether they are souls bodies or illusions I think the Phoenix can bring them back (all things are possible when the Phoenix is involved), and if it doesn't, meh.
Originally posted by LordKaos
I still think that if they were killed they can come back, if you can't reconstitute a soul in the heart of creation then what good are you? I also still stick to them not being souls in the sense of immaterial beings they have physical bodies as the WHR seems to be a "physical" place that can be access through ascension or getting passed the nightmare effect. One can also assume that Vulcan has no idea what he is talking about since he said he killed them, they are part of the Phoenix and the Phoenix was not destroyed it was temporarily absorbed. But no matter this can go on for days, and I just don't feel like it. Whether they are souls bodies or illusions I think the Phoenix can bring them back (all things are possible when the Phoenix is involved), and if it doesn't, meh.
Yes, PF was absorbed, because Jean allowed it. Then Rachel said, she has no idea, how could Vulcan tore the piece of PF out of her. It was because of Jean.
And I don't see in any case being a problem for Jean bringing them back, if Vulcan killed them.
Originally posted by ExodusCloak
The WHR Is located inside the M'Kraan Crystal. Vulcan enters the WHR through the M'Kraan Crystal the same way Xavier did. The same way Psylocke and Rachel did. The same way Jamie did.You then have Kid Omega protest that he's not supposed to be here that he would have been better off had he died in his Mothers Womb.
Then you have Vulcan feel the power steal it, kill every member of the Phoenix Corps and steal Rachel and Korvus' Force.
He absorbs the entire Force and can hear Jean inside him. The force is consuming him similar to how it did with Emma in Endsong. The Force reacts poorly to negative emotions and this was picked up in Warsong when Celeste was able to act as a host. After a fight with his family he gives up the Force releasing it and then dying. He then lands up in the WHR and see's "Jean Force" appear.
Anyway since the WHR is the nexus of all realities I guess it's only Kid Vulcan and Jean in the WHR now.
Never read how Xavier entered the WHR. (I stopped reading X-Men after the whole House of M). So I cant comment. But I disagree, that Vulcan “willingly” accessed the White Hot room like the ones mentioned above. Look at that scan, one moment he is being tormented by the “Nightmare Field” and next he claims “I Feel You”. Who is this “You” geared to prior to Kid Omega interruption? Kid Omega, the other avatars, or the conscious of the PF?
We see him now mysteriously in the WHR, with Kid Omega (Not really sure if its him but lets give him a name) complaining he should not be here, nor should he be worthy of the PF.
Fast forward into the plot, we realize that Jean (What Vulcan felt in him prior to Kid Omega interruptions), is holding back his powers significantly. Followed by the acknowledgement that, everything that happened to him was not his fault.
I would say the moment, he stepped into the M’Kran crystal. Jean had direct influence over Vulcan. This would merits why he escaped the “Nightmare Field”. Why he suddenly appeared in the “White Hot Room”. Why Kid Omega protested his unworthiness of attaining the Phoenix Force. And ultimately why he had the power to challenge, usurp, and destroy other PF avatars.
Originally posted by id369
Never read how Xavier entered the WHR. (I stopped reading X-Men after the whole House of M). So I cant comment. But I disagree, that Vulcan “willingly” accessed the White Hot room like the ones mentioned above. Look at that scan, one moment he is being tormented by the “Nightmare Field” and next he claims “I Feel You”. Who is this “You” geared to prior to Kid Omega interruption? Kid Omega, the other avatars, or the conscious of the PF?We see him now mysteriously in the WHR, with Kid Omega (Not really sure if its him but lets give him a name) complaining he should not be here, nor should he be worthy of the PF.
Fast forward into the plot, we realize that Jean (What Vulcan felt in him prior to Kid Omega interruptions), is holding back his powers significantly. Followed by the acknowledgement that, everything that happened to him was not his fault.
I would say the moment, he stepped into the M’Kran crystal. Jean had direct influence over Vulcan. This would merits why he escaped the “Nightmare Field”. Why he suddenly appeared in the “White Hot Room”. Why Kid Omega protested his unworthiness of attaining the Phoenix Force. And ultimately why he had the power to challenge, usurp, and destroy other PF avatars.
I agree. It was everything because of Jean. Thats is why Vulcan did what he did, breaking into the M'Kraan, also toring pieces of PF out of others. That is why I also think Jean can bring those Vulcan killed in the WHR.