Originally posted by Galan007
Is that so?Then would you mind explaining to me how Zoom, [who was BY FAR Flash's superior, speed-wise], wasn't IMP'ing every single time he hit someone?
I have an explination -- could it be because Zoom isn't connected to the Speed Force, thus is unable to achieve the mass required for an IMP?
It is nowhere near as cut-and-dry as you are trying to make it sound.
Zoom manipulates time. Cut-and-dry.
Originally posted by Galan007
Is that so?Then would you mind explaining to me how Zoom, [who was BY FAR Flash's superior, speed-wise], wasn't IMP'ing someone every single time he punched them?
I have an explination -- It's because Zoom isn't connected to the Speed Force, thus unable to achieve the mass required for an IMP.
It is nowhere near as cut-and-dry as you are trying to make it sound.
Kutulu's explanation is the correct one regarding Zoom, mine is a more generic answer... because DC (like marvel, like all comics) applies "science" selectively.
that being said, Flash's showstopper unfortunately happens to be a rather common ability... hitting people really really really fast - ergo any character with C and above motion is capable of it, in a vs battle.
Hyperspace is in space and it is entered into by Surfer to traverse the vastness of the cosmos, iirc. it doesn't necessarily kick-in just to facilitate his entry to C and above speeds.
Originally posted by janus77😂
Zoom doesn't throw IMPs because DC (like marvel, like all comics) applies "science" selectively.
I'm just using your little theory in cunjunction with characters from the same company. [FAR better than what you're trying to justify].
But now it's along the lines of...
"Well even though Zoom can move at C+ speeds, and by my own accord should be able to IMP... he just doesn't."
But of course,
A slower character's [Flash's] ability to IMP, has nothing to do with the Speed Force or anything, right? lol
okie dokie. 🙂
Originally posted by janus77Your theory has bigger holes then Jenna Jameson. srsly
that being said, Flash's showstopper unfortunately happens to be a rather common ability... hitting people really really really fast - ergo any character with C and above motion is capable of it, in a vs battle.
It's clear that the Surfer and Thor do not infinite mass punch, not only because they've never demonstrated the capability, but also because for them to take advantage of true relativistic effects, they would also be subject to it's disadvantages - namely length contraction and the requirement for an infinite sum of energy.
The Surfer, clearly, does not have infinite energy, nor does Thor. Not to mention the fact that they do not suddenly become two dimensional while travelling at C.
Why does the Flash not suffer from said effects? Speedforce. The fact that one character is from DC and one from Marvel makes no difference. The Flash has been written as capable, the Surfer and Thor have not been - we cannot assume otherwise cause we feel like it.
Originally posted by Soljer
It's clear that the Surfer and Thor do not infinite mass punch, not only because they've never demonstrated the capability, but also because for them to take advantage of true relativistic effects, they would also be subject to it's disadvantages - namely length contraction and the requirement for an infinite sum of energy.The Surfer, clearly, does not have infinite energy, nor does Thor. Not to mention the fact that they do not suddenly become two dimensional while travelling at C.
Why does the Flash not suffer from said effects? Speedforce. The fact that one character is from DC and one from Marvel makes no difference. The Flash has been written as capable, the Surfer and Thor have not been - we cannot assume otherwise cause we feel like it.
the Speedforce takes care of the elongation and the need for infinite energy, but it doesn't actually produce the infinite mass punch, that's just the application of 'science' to an object going at C. not how it gets there.
as I say, it's because it is basically hitting someone really really really really fast, that it is quite feasible for any of the FTL types.
what did Surfer plan to grab the IG with, when he reached out his hand, whilst travelling at 1000s of multiples of C?
Originally posted by janus77
yet both Surfer and Thor travel at C and above, can hit people whilst travelling at those velocities and so definitely have mass.
Yet they have never mentioned taking advantage of, or coping with relativistic effects, so we cannot assume they are capable. You're trying to pull feats where there are none.
Do they exhibit infinite energy? Do they, suddenly, become two dimensional? No.
Originally posted by janus77
the Speedforce takes care of the elongation and the need for infinite energy, but it doesn't actually produce the infinite mass punch, that's just the application of 'science' to an object going at C. not how it gets there.
Absolutely true, the speedforce removes whatever effects of C-travel the Flash doesn't feel like experiencing, leaves the rest. It lets him pick and choose - something Thor and the Surfer haven't been portrayed as benefiting from.
Originally posted by janus77
as I say, it's because it is basically hitting someone really really really really fast, that it is quite feasible for any of the FTL types.
That's a very very simplistic view of something. You're picking and choosing whatever effects you would like from both simple Newtonian mechanics and relativity and trying to combine them, and imprint them upon characters who have never accomplished something similar in their past. Ignorance.
Originally posted by janus77
what did Surfer plan to grab the IG with, when he reached out his hand, whilst travelling at 1000s of multiples of C?
His hand. He could move his hand because said hand was not composed of infinite mass, nor was it contracted to a two dimensional space.
I'm loving watching the DC elite fanboys squirm to try and explain this. Keep going. Zoom uses time to travel FTL, therefore does not have relativistic effects. Superman moves by manipulating space.
Thor just straight up went past light speed. He has the Odinforce, what else do you need?
Flash's "Infinite" Mass punch, if it was truly infinite, would have simply blew a hole through whoever he punched, instead it only acted like a Superman+ level punch. It's funny that Flash's Infinite Mass Punch wasn't used to K.O. Superboy Prime, since he can use it "thousands of times", but when it comes to an actual comic, is never used more than once.
Oh well, that's KMC for ya. Continue on, oh ye elitists of KMC. Explain to me why Flash didn't use his Infinite Mass Punch thousands of times against Superboy Prime. I can't wait to hear this.
Originally posted by KutuluThe phrase,
I'm loving watching the DC [b]elite fanboys squirm to try and explain this. Keep going. Zoom uses time to travel FTL, therefore does not have relativistic effects. Superman moves by manipulating space.Thor just straight up went past light speed. He has the Odinforce, what else do you need?
Flash's "Infinite" Mass punch, if it was truly infinite, would have simply blew a hole through whoever he punched, instead it only acted like a Superman+ level punch. It's funny that Flash's Infinite Mass Punch wasn't used to K.O. Superboy Prime, since he can use it "thousands of times", but when it comes to an actual comic, is never used more than once.
Oh well, that's KMC for ya. Continue on, oh ye elitists of KMC. Explain to me why Flash didn't use his Infinite Mass Punch thousands of times against Superboy Prime. I can't wait to hear this. [/B]
and incase you hadn't noticed -- the little theories janus is propogating in this thread, do not hold water. srsly
Originally posted by Kutulu
I'm loving watching the DC [b]elite fanboys squirm to try and explain this.
[/B]
Originally posted by Kutulu
Thor just straight up went past light speed. He has the Odinforce, what else do you need?
The very odinforce that, plainly, protects him from relativistic effects.
Originally posted by Kutulu
Flash's "Infinite" Mass punch, if it was truly infinite, would have simply blew a hole through whoever he punched, instead it only acted like a Superman+ level punch.
Originally posted by Kutulu
Oh well, that's KMC for ya. Continue on, oh ye elitists of KMC. Explain to me why Flash didn't use his Infinite Mass Punch thousands of times against Superboy Prime. I can't wait to hear this.
Because Superboy Prime was quite plainly faster than the Flash, and such a punch likely wouldn't have hurt him anyways?
Originally posted by Kutulu
I'm loving watching the DC [b]elite fanboys squirm to try and explain this. Keep going. Zoom uses time to travel FTL, therefore does not have relativistic effects. Superman moves by manipulating space.Thor just straight up went past light speed. He has the Odinforce, what else do you need?
Flash's "Infinite" Mass punch, if it was truly infinite, would have simply blew a hole through whoever he punched, instead it only acted like a Superman+ level punch. It's funny that Flash's Infinite Mass Punch wasn't used to K.O. Superboy Prime, since he can use it "thousands of times", but when it comes to an actual comic, is never used more than once.
Oh well, that's KMC for ya. Continue on, oh ye elitists of KMC. Explain to me why Flash didn't use his Infinite Mass Punch thousands of times against Superboy Prime. I can't wait to hear this. [/B]
It's well known that Zoom's powerset doesn't entirely make sense. And that he's faster than most Flash's.
To say that someone can do an IMP just because they can go FTL........is scientifically corect, IMO. BUT, this being comics, we assume that they cannot do it if not demonstrated. What most FTLers do is go full out and punch. Which is basically a speed punch. The IMP, as Soljer and Galan said, is pseudo-physics backed by the Speedforce. Flash is the only one who can do it, because he's the only one with both the speedforce powerset, and the ability to ignore/negate/flatout break the laws of physics by virtue of said powerset.
SBP blitzed 3 Flashes, now, whether they were jobbing or not is a matter of opinion. But he is at least near their level in terms of speed. Plus, you know IC had to end with an S-shield finishing the job. 😉
And everyone with a decent knowledge of physics knows the IMP is underpowered for what it is. But I personally believe it's 1. the writers think Flash is overpowered enough, and 2. Flash isn't usually trying to kill people when he uses the IMP.
Plus, he have used it on SBP to no avail. 😛
o-kay, I'm going to reply to the responses made since my last post a little later (too much forumming today 😐) but I have a couple of questions and observations to put forward.
Qs.
1) does anybody here believe Flash's "Infinite" Mass Punch actually contains infinite mass?
2) can Flash, Surfer, Superman, Thor ... all travel at multiples of C (according to their comics)?
:. will people stop pretending that the IMP one-shots powerful foes?
Obs.
1) Galan my "theory" was not full of holes, on the contrary it is simply a more faithful application of the same theory in which the very concept of "Infinite Mass Punch" is grounded. a theory which transcends comic companies and is valid as long as lightspeed travel and mass are concerned (hence my pointing out that Surfer was reaching out to grab the IG - he had mass, he wasn't some photon lightshow or someother spectral phenomena).
2) the "Infinite Mass" argument is merely an extension of the principle that a rise in momentum increases the force of a blow. Superman flying into space and back to whack somebody or Gladiator flying at a planet to smash it apart etc ... it's meant to convey that basic understanding of physics.
3) therefore you cannot just arbitrarily deny access to such rules of physics to a character merely because another character uses the move as a 'trademark'. any fool with martial arts training, decent balance, two good legs and arms can do a "Bat Kick", any uber-strong behemoth can do a "Thunder Clap" and any FTL character can hit an IMP.
4) infinite/infinity are not actually endless. and most certainly not in comics, thus Hulk <<<<<< Galactus, Galactus <<<<<< LT ... what they tend to mean is just 'unquantifiable*' power, the point about the "IMP"... it clearly is not infinite. strong/uber characters are shown surviving it pretty much unscathed. can we accept that and move beyond the lazy "IMP 4 the win" answers, when pitting together very very very strong characters?
*unquantifiable relative to the observer. computers couldn't store a terabyte 10 years ago, so data mining projects on a national level would have been unimaginable, now they are not, because the tools have improved and the horizons have been pushed back further.