Because it follows no logical or sensible pattern as to how such a 'mistake', in widespread and common use for a long time, could have come about. Semantic drift doesn't really work like that.
The term is used in a sarcastic/ironic manner. People using it these days may not be aware of that (having simply seen the term used elsewhere and repating the inherent meaning), but that's not the point. The intent behind the use of the term is the important point, and for those purposes "I could care less" and "I couldn't care less" have identical meaning.
And so as a used phrase, it is no more wrong to use than "Do you mind?" is.
Originally posted by Ushgarak
Because it follows no logical or sensible pattern as to how such a 'mistake', in widespread and common use for a long time, could have come about. Semantic drift doesn't really work like that.The term is used in a sarcastic/ironic manner. People using it these days may not be aware of that (having simply seen the term used elsewhere and repating the inherent meaning), but that's not the point. The intent behind the use of the term is the important point, and for those purposes "I could care less" and "I couldn't care less" have identical meaning.
And so as a used phrase, it is no more wrong to use than "Do you mind?" is.
Is "I could care less" a common, widely used term?
The thing I noticed is that it is used in a way you would use "couldn't care less", meaning more dry, without much chance of it being meant sarcastically. Like "But when it comes to cows drinking beer I could care less". Which, to me, just doesn't have any sarcasm in it. I am not saying that someone that consciously uses it sarcastically is wrong, I just think some people use it in a way they would use "couldn't care less", because they don't know better.
To the first- in the US, yes it is, pretty much.
To the second, I'll just repeat my point about it not mattering if the user has become unaware of the implied sarcasm. It's just duplication of the term when the meaning was clear. They saw it used in the sense of "I could not care any less" and continue to use it in that same sense.
And seeing as language is fulled with many of those sorts of expressions used all the time, calling it 'wrong' is rather silly.
This is how language works, and that is what the term means.
Originally posted by Ushgarak
To the first- in the US, yes it is, pretty much.To the second, I'll just repeat my point about it not mattering if the user has become unaware of the implied sarcasm. It's just duplication of the term when the meaning was clear. They saw it used in the sense of "I could not care any less" and continue to use it in that same sense.
And seeing as language is fulled with many of those sorts of expressions used all the time, calling it 'wrong' is rather silly.
This is how language works, and that is what the term means.
Well, I think their usage of it can still be wrong as it is not the exact same thing. You can't exchange "couldn't care less" with "could care less" everytime and still be correct. To call them wrong if they do not make use of sarcasm, I believe, is quite alright. As it is not really a shortening nearly as common or logical as "do you mind".
Originally posted by Bardock42
You can't exchange "couldn't care less" with "could care less" everytime and still be correct.
As far as I can tell, yes you can, so that renders the rest of your post moot.
Though even if you were right about that, it wouldn't make any difference, because the concept of it being a simple attribution of meaning different from the ordering of the words is still a valid linguistic shift. These things happen all the time in language; you say it is more logical with "Do you mind?" but that doesn;t stand up to any close examination. The fact of the matter is that it doesn;t mean what it literally says, but people are using it correctly because they are expressing a certain meaning using a way they have seen it expressed (correctly) elsewhere, which is all language really is.
We'll see such logical contradictions all over the place in language, like with terms such as "she's awfully nice."
You'll just have to live with it.
Just calling it an oxymoron does not magically make it correct, you know. An oxymoron is often a description of an incorrect use of language. It's not 'designed' to be contradictory at all, it;s just worked out like that over time. So 'awfully nice' is an oxymoron that is correct, not correct because it is an oxymoron.
The important point is that it is logically contradictory, exactly the same as "I could care less" and "Do you mind?" meaning, basically, the opposite of what is said. So I am afraid regardless of your opinion, it does make sense.
Originally posted by Ushgarak
As far as I can tell, yes you can, so that renders the rest of your post moot.
Well, you can't though. "I could care less" has still a very specific meaning, actually opposite to "I couldn't care less". Without it being certainly sarcastic it does not have meaning.
Originally posted by Ushgarak
Though even if you were right about that, it wouldn't make any difference, because the concept of it being a simple attribution of meaning different from the ordering of the words is still a valid linguistic shift. These things happen all the time in language; you say it is more logical with "Do you mind?" but that doesn;t stand up to any close examination. The fact of the matter is that it doesn;t mean what it literally says, but people are using it correctly because they are expressing a certain meaning using a way they have seen it expressed elsewhere, which is all language really is.
It's your opinion that that did happen, I believe my theory to be more likely actually. It's not particularly common in the US where I lived. You might see it sometimes on the Internet by people who without a doubt do not use it in a sarcastic manner but are under the impression that what they are saying is actually correct.
Originally posted by UshgarakNah, I can still say it's wrong. I will have to live with them saying it wrongly, but I guess that's how free will works, I can accept that. I could care less about them saying that, but I do little anyways.
We'll see such logical contradictions all over the place in language, like with terms such as "she's awfully nice."You'll just have to live with it.
First of all, your first statement is wrong. Yes you can. In every single time you can say "I couldn't care less", you can say "I could care less instead." Sorry, that's an absolute; it has developed that way and it is so.
And yes, it is my opinion, and as someone whose job it is to work in this area I value that a heck of a lot more than I value yours, which is based simply on a desire to look down upon others. I cannot help that you did not see people using it but its use can be traced back decades. And you have to get opff the sarcasm thing and get onto the whole point of duplication of meaning- so it does not matter at ALL if the person using it is unaware of the sarcastic origin of the phrase. Not one tiny bit. The sarcasm thing is just an explanation of the origin of the term- that's all. Nothing to do with how it is used now. A huge number of words and phrases hawve long since lost the connection with their origin; it doesn't matter.
Yes, you can say it is wrong,. But you'll be the one who is wrong to say that. Free will and free speech does indeed mean you are perfectly capable of talking nonsense.
Originally posted by Ushgarak
Just calling it an oxymoron does not magically make it correct, you know. An oxymoron is often a description of an incorrect use of language. It's not 'designed' to be contradictory at all, it;s just worked out like that over time. So 'awfully nice' is an oxymoron that is correct, not correct because it is an oxymoron.The important point is that it is logically contradictory, exactly the same as "I could care less" and "Do you mind?" meaning, basically, the opposite of what is said. So I am afraid regardless of your opinion, it does make sense.
The fact that someone could care less, of course does make sense, but I do not agree that it is a necessarily appropriate oxymoron, as the meaning doesn't actually contain a paradox or contradiction. The contradiction's in the context, so yes, it may work at times, but a lot of the time, it's either confusing, or stupid.
Originally posted by Ushgarak
First of all, your first statement is wrong. Yes you can. In every single time you can say "I couldn't care less", you can say "I could care less instead." Sorry, that's an absolute; it has developed that way and it is so.
No.
Originally posted by Ushgarak
And yes, it is my opinion, and as someone whose job it is to work in this area I value that a heck of a lot more than I value yours, which is based simply on a desire to look down upon others. I cannot help that you did not see people using it but its use can be traced back decades. And you have to get opff the sarcasm thing and get onto the whole point of duplication of meaning- so it does not matter at ALL if the person using it is unaware of the sarcastic origin of the phrase. Not one tiny bit.
Of course you value your opinion more. I value mine more, you can convince me with arguments though if you would like to. And it does matter, as the phrase has not developed to be exchangeable. It is used wrongly at various times.
Originally posted by Ushgarak
Yes, you can say it is wrong,. But you'll be the one who is wrong to say that. Free will and free speech does indeed mean you are perfectly capable of talking nonsense.
I wouldn't be. It would still be the person using a phrase that means the opposite of what they try to say.