Dark empire sidious vs RO2 bane.

Started by Darth Exodus9 pages

'He had such a knowledge of the Darkside that he could even keep the ones he cared about from dying'- Sisious

'Jedi gain power from knowledge. Sith gain knowledge from power'-Vader

'He became so [b]powerful[b] that.....'-Sisious

He created Life from the force, unlocked the very secrets to life itself. He created the ultimate being (powerwise) a feat which Sisious never even attempted (despite the practical upshot) and it was said that Plagueis taught Palps everything he knew so he must of known the technique but was too weak to use it. He also had to resort to killing Plagueis in his sleep like a complete wuss. He obviously thought that he couldn't take him in a fight. 👇 👇

Why did they cancel his book!!? That would have kicked ass!!! 🤨 🙁

Originally posted by Darth Exodus
'He had such a knowledge of the Darkside that he could even keep the ones he cared about from dying'- Sisious

'Jedi gain power from knowledge. Sith gain knowledge from power'-Vader

'He became so [b]powerful[b] that.....'-Sisious

He created Life from the force, unlocked the very secrets to life itself. He created the ultimate being (powerwise) a feat which Sisious never even attempted (despite the practical upshot) and it was said that Plagueis taught Palps everything he knew so he must of known the technique but was too weak to use it. He also had to resort to killing Plagueis in his sleep like a complete wuss. He obviously thought that he couldn't take him in a fight. 👇 👇

Why did they cancel his book!!? That would have kicked ass!!! 🤨 🙁

Except there's no proof that Sidious was telling Anakin the truth about Plagueis, nor Plagueis' success in manipulating midichlorians, so it's all speculation. Sorry Noobaris.

Well I don't think that they would start making a book about him if he wasn't real. And if Sisious was making him up then he would have said that he killed him in a less pansy way.
And it's been stated as FACT on Wookiepedia etc that Anakin was created by Plagueis. One of the criteria for being the Chosen one was his imaculate conception.

ROFL.... Wookiepedia isn't canon. GL specifically stated that he will let the fans make up their own conclusion, so try again.

Well how about the fact that Shmi (or whatever) said that Anakin had no father. Why the hell would she lie?
Taking that, all we know about Plagueis and the Wookiepedia reference then you have some pretty damning evidence.

Originally posted by Darth Exodus
'He had such a knowledge of the Darkside that he could even keep the ones he cared about from dying'- Sisious

'Jedi gain power from knowledge. Sith gain knowledge from power'-Vader

'He became so [b]powerful[b] that.....'-Sisious

He created Life from the force, unlocked the very secrets to life itself. He created the ultimate being (powerwise) a feat which Sisious never even attempted (despite the practical upshot) and it was said that Plagueis taught Palps everything he knew so he must of known the technique but was too weak to use it. He also had to resort to killing Plagueis in his sleep like a complete wuss. He obviously thought that he couldn't take him in a fight. 👇 👇

Why did they cancel his book!!? That would have kicked ass!!! 🤨 🙁

Sith don't have to teach their apprentices everything they know. (though Bane might tnnik otherwise) in fact in Jedi vs Sith. Sidious pretty much calls Naga Sadow a fool for putting all of his knowledge into his holocron and Sidious basically says he would never do that, So Plagueis didn't have to teach the power to sidious furthermore we don't know if thus technique could be taught to someone. And killing someone in there sleep may not be the bravest but if he could prevent others from dieling like sidious suggests he(plagueis) can do than it is not far fetched that he could do the same for himself when he is awake. So a battle could end in sidious's death.

I just saw this so I'm not going to attempt to participate in the debate and go straight to the actual topic.

Sabers: Don't know. They could probably match each other, with Sidious not being able to use Force Lightning to get past the orbalisks I don't know.

Force: Sidious. Force Lightning kills orbalisks, which release the deadly toxin into Bane.

All-Out: Sidious. Refer to Force comments.

RIP Bane.

As a side note, you know who Nebaris reminds me of? Lomi Plo. I mean, he's got a whole army of socks (like Lomi has Killiks) that are in the end controlled by the same person and have one mind. He also slips in and out of conversation whenever Bane/Revan etc. is mentioned like Lomi can slip in and out of minds. Finally, he cloaks his presence (albeit not like Lomi can with other's doubts) and only actually comes out of hiding when he thinks he needs to debate his twisted ideas. So he really is like Lomi Plo, just without her cunning and ability to win things.

I stumbled upon further information regarding the full scope and magnitude of Emperor Palpatine's Force mastery; this information seems to even further cement his dominion over his predecessor.

Byss and the Deep Core, [http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=starwars/article/sw20050414planet1]

The mysterious planet Byss lies at the heart of the Imperial holdings in the Deep Core. A pleasant resort world used by Emperor Palpatine as a personal retreat, Byss was once a lush and fertile planet that was used as a lure to attract willing followers to settle in the Core. Over time, the Emperor's dark side energies slowly corrupted the world and transformed it into one of the most powerful dark side sites in the entire galaxy.
Once the populace had settled into their new lives in an Imperial utopia, the Emperor initiated his true plans for the world. Slowly but steadily, he used his dark Force powers to enslave the people on the world and drain their life energies to fuel his own vile experiments.
Almost mindless under the oppression of the Emperor's dark side influence, the people of Byss find their life energies constantly leeched off during the Emperor's evil machinations.

These three passages indicate a great deal about the Emperor's power. Apparently (and prior to his resurrection), his sheer presence and dark side energies was sufficient to make a "once lush and fertile planet" into "one of the most powerful dark side sites in the entire galaxy", whereas locations such as Korriban and Ziost seemingly required centuries upon centuries of population by Sith Lords and other dark side abominations. Furthermore, he used his "dark Force powers" to enslave the denizens of the planet to the point that they were "almost mindless". He also maintained enough control to leech off their life energies without apparently killing them.

Originally posted by Gideon
I stumbled upon further information regarding the full scope and magnitude of Emperor Palpatine's Force mastery; this information seems to even further cement his dominion over his predecessor.

Further cement? Further what? Fallible quotes and Palpatine's worthless Force Storms? Please, as soon as Palpatine displays anything even close to the ability that Bane does, that is, being able to absorb a planet destroying level of energy, contain it, and direct it across an entire planet, he's logically not as powerful. Nothing you've ever said changes that, and the same goes for what you've said here.

Byss and the Deep Core, [http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=starwars/article/sw20050414planet1]

The mysterious planet Byss lies at the heart of the Imperial holdings in the Deep Core. A pleasant resort world used by Emperor Palpatine as a personal retreat, Byss was once a lush and fertile planet that was used as a lure to attract willing followers to settle in the Core. Over time, the Emperor's dark side energies slowly corrupted the world and transformed it into one of the most powerful dark side sites in the entire galaxy.

Nice new piece of information there Gideon, but essentially worthless. All the feat equates to is that it took a large period of time ("slowly"😉 for Palpatine's dark side powers to affect the landscape of the planet, and turn it into one of the largest sources of the dark side.

Bane, on the other hand, was able to use his powers to absorb a far greater level of power in the space of a few hours, so his force defence is clearly considerable, and there's logically not anything that Palpatine would be able to successfully use against him. He was also able to keep control over the power, and direct it across Ruusan, so his mastery tops anything displayed from Palpatine as well.

Also, just because the text directly refers to Palpatine's dark side energies rather than Palpatine himself, it doesn't mean that it was necessarily a natural product of them. Palpatine could have actively set out to do what happened, and it would have still been his dark side energies that achieved the eventual result. In which case, the feat is largely similar to what Darth Rivan did to Almas with his force created Kaluthin Plant, which he covered the entire planet with. Nowhere near as impressive as you appear to think it is.

Once the populace had settled into their new lives in an Imperial utopia, the Emperor initiated his true plans for the world. Slowly but steadily, he used his dark Force powers to enslave the people on the world and drain their life energies to fuel his own vile experiments.

Again, all this really proves is that Palpatine was never able to use his force powers on an entire planet without having to slowly do so. Freedon Nadd was able to use his force powers to conquer an entire planet, and a pretty militant one at that (the People of Onderon had been at war with the beasts from Dxun). Yet another feat of Palpatine's replicated by another Sith Lord.

Almost mindless under the oppression of the Emperor's dark side influence, the people of Byss find their life energies constantly leeched off during the Emperor's evil machinations.

Constantly = hyperbole. The other passage outright states that he did so "slowly but steadily."

These three passages indicate a great deal about the Emperor's power.

They really don't. He was able to use his powers to slowly achieve what others have before him. Pretty ridiculous given how you're always trying to assert him being the #1 Sith, and this is the best that you can support that title with.

Apparently (and prior to his resurrection), his sheer presence and dark side energies was sufficient to make a "once lush and fertile planet" into "one of the most powerful dark side sites in the entire galaxy",

Also, just because the text directly refers to Palpatine's dark side energies rather than Palpatine himself, it doesn't mean that it was necessarily a natural product of them. Palpatine could have actively set out to do what happened, and it would have still been his dark side energies that achieved the eventual result.

whereas locations such as Korriban and Ziost seemingly required centuries upon centuries of population by Sith Lords and other dark side abominations.

Your assertion that it required all of that lacks proof.

Furthermore, he used his "dark Force powers" to enslave the denizens of the planet to the point that they were "almost mindless".

And exactly how did he do that? What were the circumstances? How many did he do this to? Did he do it to a large group of individuals all at once, or to them individually? How much time did it take him?

I'm sorry, but even if he was able to do it to the entire population all at once in seconds, the feat pails in comparison to what Darth Nihilus does to the life on Katarr, or what an unnamed Ancient Sith was able to do to the life on Ambria.

He also maintained enough control to leech off their life energies without apparently killing them.

Apparently without killing them? Did you sit down and have Sunday brunch with the author or something? Please tell me where it's even hinted that he was able to keep them alive, and even then, substantiate the control required, as you appear to think it puts Palpatine on par with the real titans of the Sith, when he's really not.

Further cement? Further what? Fallible quotes and Palpatine's worthless Force Storms? Please, as soon as Palpatine displays anything even close to the ability that Bane does, that is, being able to absorb a planet destroying level of energy, contain it, and direct it across an entire planet, he's logically not as powerful. Nothing you've ever said changes that, and the same goes for what you've said here.

I'm afraid not, Nebaris. It is not simply enough to assert fallibility and not prove it; as I have told you before, on countless occasions, that you label the quotes as "vague" or "ambiguous" simply does not make it so. Furthermore, as to the authenticity of Palpatine's Force Storms, the Dark Empire Sourcebook describes it as "perhaps the most powerful Force ability ever known" [thus sinking your delusion that it does not speak for the Emperor's power], his control over the technique was impressive, for he could alter the mode of the Storm from destruction to mere teleportation, and deposite Luke Skywalker into a Lictor-class prison ship. So, one could argue that Palpatine himself channelled "planet destroying level of energy" -- except, unlike Bane -- there was no ritual required. It didn't take several Sith Lords to summon this energy. Palpatine simply did it himself. Furthermore, Palpatine was able to, according to the Ultimate Visual Guide, to summon and channel numerous Ancient Sith spirits at once. And, to nail the coffin shut, Palpatine was able to endure lethal blasts of Force lightning to his face -- with enough force (no pun intended) being emitted that it was pushing Mace Windu's (a Jedi whose physique and physical power are both legendary; his defeat of Confederacy armies bare-handed on Dantooine (I believe) and his subsequent defeat of Kar Vastor) own lightsaber back towards him to the point that he was "choking on ozone"; the same Windu who is the ultimate and only master of the "deadliest" lightsaber fighting form. Palpatine's face literally melted and deformed, and this occured for a long duration of time, yet he was only "feigning weakness". Yet Darth Bane, in a similar situation, despite being many years younger, physically stronger, and -- you assert -- more powerful... put himself into a coma and nearly died. Seems to me that Palpatine quite handily takes the cake.

Nice new piece of information there Gideon, but essentially worthless. All the feat equates to is that it took a large period of time ("slowly"😉 for Palpatine's dark side powers to affect the landscape of the planet, and turn it into one of the largest sources of the dark side.

Essentially worthless? That one man singlehandedly transformed "a once lush and fertile world" into "one of the strongest dark side sites in the galaxy"? The period of time is irrelevant. It actually makes the feat more impressive, since, according to the Ultimate Visual Guide and other sources, Emperor Palpatine "hardly ever" leaves Coruscant. Ergo, it can be surmised that, over the course of two decades, Palpatine's presence was potent enough to cause planet-wide geological and metaphysical changes to a planet he hardly visited.

Bane, on the other hand, was able to use his powers to absorb a far greater level of power in the space of a few hours, so his force defence is clearly considerable, and there's logically not anything that Palpatine would be able to successfully use against him. He was also able to keep control over the power, and direct it across Ruusan, so his mastery tops anything displayed from Palpatine as well.

Once again, your assertions fail to make it so, Nebaris. It is ultimately Palpatine who, at a period of advanced age and physical frailty, was able to absorb more punishment than Darth Bane.

Also, just because the text directly refers to Palpatine's dark side energies rather than Palpatine himself, it doesn't mean that it was necessarily a natural product of them. Palpatine could have actively set out to do what happened, and it would have still been his dark side energies that achieved the eventual result. In which case, the feat is largely similar to what Darth Rivan did to Almas with his force created Kaluthin Plant, which he covered the entire planet with. Nowhere near as impressive as you appear to think it is.

That calls for speculation, I'm afraid, aside from being a very pathetic red herring. Really, Nebaris, if you're going to try to distract people from the text by asserting that "Palpatine might have wanted to do it", let a better point result from it. As I have said before, however, Palpatine hardly ever went to Byss, so occupied was he on Coruscant and further training himself in the dark side of the Force.

Again, all this really proves is that Palpatine was never able to use his force powers on an entire planet without having to slowly do so. Freedon Nadd was able to use his force powers to conquer an entire planet, and a pretty militant one at that (the People of Onderon had been at war with the beasts from Dxun). Yet another feat of Palpatine's replicated by another Sith Lord.

I'm afraid you fail to make a point, Nebaris. Freedon Nadd conquered a hostile planet, whereas Byss was already subjugated under the Galactic Empire. This wasn't about "conquering a planet" so much as it was "enslaving a planet", and making it a virtual, planet-sized Sith laboratory. Which Palpatine did. By himself. With the Force. When he hardly visited.

Constantly = hyperbole. The other passage outright states that he did so "slowly but steadily."

It is not a hyperbole. I am not saying that the Emperor just hacked away at their life energies and took all he wanted. But he did so constantly ('steadily'😉... when he was hardly ever there.

They really don't. He was able to use his powers to slowly achieve what others have before him. Pretty ridiculous given how you're always trying to assert him being the #1 Sith, and this is the best that you can support that title with.

I'm afraid that they really do. You've yet to prove that Darth Bane "channelled and absorbed more power". Especially when the then-Chancellor Palpatine was able to absorb Force lightning full-on in the face, whereupon it melted, in an inferior position for a long duration of time, yet still demonstrate enough power to nearly kill Jedi Master Mace Windu -- and all the while, the only weakness demonstrated was 'feigned'. Darth Bane put himself into a coma in a surprisingly stupid maneuver, despite being protected by orbalisks. And that Bane was killed when he clearly didn't absorb the attack is proof enough that his lightning is a far cry from being "planet-destroying power" like you credit the Force Storm to be. Ergo, one can conclude that the incident on Ruusan was "ritualistic in nature". 😉

Also, just because the text directly refers to Palpatine's dark side energies rather than Palpatine himself, it doesn't mean that it was necessarily a natural product of them. Palpatine could have actively set out to do what happened, and it would have still been his dark side energies that achieved the eventual result.

Dealt with already.

And exactly how did he do that? What were the circumstances? How many did he do this to? Did he do it to a large group of individuals all at once, or to them individually? How much time did it take him?

I'm afraid the text simply proves that he did so to the entire planet, despite hardly ever being present on the planet itself.

I'm sorry, but even if he was able to do it to the entire population all at once in seconds, the feat pails in comparison to what Darth Nihilus does to the life on Katarr, or what an unnamed Ancient Sith was able to do to the life on Ambria.

Excellent. I'm sure you'll have no problem proving it.

Apparently without killing them? Did you sit down and have Sunday brunch with the author or something? Please tell me where it's even hinted that he was able to keep them alive, and even then, substantiate the control required, as you appear to think it puts Palpatine on par with the real titans of the Sith, when he's really not.

Simple facts, Nebaris. Palpatine would use the life energies for his dark side experiments, as well as to prolong his own life. That Byss's population is well in the billions and that it was his secret throne world, where he built up a small mini-empire, one can safely conclude that he did not attempt to butcher the people there. As for Palpatine being "on par" with the real titans of the Sith, he's not. He's above them. The numerous statements speak for themselves, as does this.

We need to get past the stages of grief. The first is denial. Palpatine is the most powerful Sith in history, and perhaps, with help, you can finally put your angered, tempered, unwilling attempt to contradict that to rest.

And Noobaris is pwned again.

Originally posted by Gideon
I'm afraid not, Nebaris. It is not simply enough to assert fallibility and not prove it; as I have told you before, on countless occasions, that you label the quotes as "vague" or "ambiguous" simply does not make it so.

Right, and the same goes for your assertions that Palpatine's dominance has already been cemented. Simply saying so doesn't make it the case. Difference being, I've previously provided the proof for my assertion numerous times (where your only counter has been whining about the concept of ambiguity), whereas all your arguments for Palpatine's dominance have been proven fallacious, on the constant.

Furthermore, as to the authenticity of Palpatine's Force Storms, the Dark Empire Sourcebook describes it as "perhaps the most powerful Force ability ever known" [thus sinking your delusion that it does not speak for the Emperor's power],

...

Well done, you've proven that the technique itself is a very powerful one. The fact that the technique is an extremely powerful one does not mean that Palpatine has to possess a certain level of power to be able to execute it. From page 179 of the Essential Guide to the Force:

"When the Force is sensed and moved by emotion, from the very centre of the body, and meditated from the lower vital centers of the being, it acts with the destructive power of a storm, and the savagery of a beast.

I have learned to meditate Anger and Will with clarity and precision, and I have learned to open the hidden reservoirs of dark side Power.

Anger concentrated by Will in the vital center of the body creates a portal through which vast energies are released-the energies of the dark side of the Force."

As is explained, the ability is a ritual that focuses a minimal amount of energy in a certain way which unlocks a far greater source of power. It's not Palpatine's regular level of power, bottom line.

his control over the technique was impressive, for he could alter the mode of the Storm from destruction to mere teleportation,

As you've constantly been doing, you're arguing from personal belief. There is nothing to suggest that altering the storm from its destructive nature to its teleportational nature requires any sort of impressive control.

Now how about substantiating the control required to do that. Prove that the control wasn't a part of the limited control that the ability granted its user over it (as explained on page 60 in the Tales of the Jedi Companion: "The power also allows limited control of these storms."😉, and if you can do that, prove that the extra control over the Storms was anything impressive, or drop the point.

and deposite Luke Skywalker into a Lictor-class prison ship.

Prove that the control wasn't all a part of the limited control that the ability granted its user over it (as explained on page 60 in the Tales of the Jedi Companion: "The power also allows limited control of these storms."😉, and if you can do that, prove that the extra control over the Storms was anything impressive, or drop the point.

So, one could argue that Palpatine himself channelled "planet destroying level of energy"

Sorry, but no. The Force Storms, at best, could destroy fleets, and tear at the surface of a planet. Nothing suggests that they could destroy an entire planet, and even then, as can be seen, nothing suggests that they could be used effectively in this scenario, and they're not testament to Palpatine's regular level of ability, bottom line.

-- except, unlike Bane -- there was no ritual required.

Actually, there was a ritual required for what Palpatine did, as explained. He had to use the Force in an organised manner for a certain result. That would be what you'd call a Force Ritual. The nature of the specific ritual, as explained, means that the destructive power of the Force Storm does not speak for the power of its user. Which was exactly my point, and your worthless quote doesn't change that.

As for the power that Bane displays when absorbing the Sith Lords' lightning, and the mastery required in containing and directing the energy, the fact that there was a ritual is irrelevant. The entire purpose of the ritual was for the Sith to give Bane their power. This, in no way, undermines the methods in which Bane received that level of power, and it in no way undermines the methods in which Bane kept control of that power, and re-directed it.

It didn't take several Sith Lords to summon this energy. Palpatine simply did it himself.

Palpatine may have done it on his own, but that doesn't change the fact that it was achieved through a ritual that requires no certain level of power or control to be able to execute, and it certainly doesn't change the fact that nothing suggests that Palpatine would be able to execute the ritual on a small scale without destroying himself in the process.

Furthermore, Palpatine was able to, according to the Ultimate Visual Guide, to summon and channel numerous Ancient Sith spirits at once.

Substantiate the impressiveness behind this. As usual, you're listing feats without providing context.

And, to nail the coffin shut, Palpatine was able to endure lethal blasts of Force lightning to his face -- with enough force (no pun intended) being emitted that it was pushing Mace Windu's (a Jedi whose physique and physical power are both legendary; his defeat of Confederacy armies bare-handed on Dantooine (I believe) and his subsequent defeat of Kar Vastor) own lightsaber back towards him to the point that he was "choking on ozone"; the same Windu who is the ultimate and only master of the "deadliest" lightsaber fighting form.

You don't seem to understand the fact that the lightning would have, in part, been in the process of being absorbed by Mace's lightsaber before being redirected back at Palpatine. Meaning the force of the lightning that was pushing Mace's saber back at him in such a way wouldn't have been as great when directed back at Palpatine. I also fail to see where, in your examples, Mace's physical strength has ever been substantiated, when there's no way of knowing - unless explicitly stated (which it never is) - whether Mace's apparent displays of physical strength were not, in fact, products of his Shatterpoint ability. An ability which wouldn't factor in on how difficult it would be to push Mace's saber back at him.

Palpatine's face literally melted and deformed, and this occured for a long duration of time, yet he was only "feigning weakness".

Great job twisting a GL quote there, Gideon. Seriously, great job! He was described as "feigning weakness" completely after the lightning exchange between him and Windu, not during it like you were trying to make out. Nothing suggests that he was faking the visible signs of discomfort during the exchange.

Yet Darth Bane, in a similar situation, despite being many years younger, physically stronger, and -- you assert -- more powerful... put himself into a coma and nearly died. Seems to me that Palpatine quite handily takes the cake.

Try reading Ro2 before forming false comparisons. Darth Bane was put into such a state because of the toxins released into his body after having the obalisks blasted by millions of volts of force lightning. It was not because of any direct effect that the lightning had on him.

Essentially worthless? That one man singlehandedly transformed "a once lush and fertile world" into "one of the strongest dark side sites in the galaxy"?

Yes, essentially worthless, as the feat, alone, doesn't really add to his power, nor does it put him on the level of someone like Darth Bane.

The period of time is irrelevant.

Irrelevant? How so? The fact that it took such a length of time means that his powers weren't potent enough to achieve such an effect in a shorter amount of time. It's similar to why people will go on about Luke instantly killing beings with his lightning. The short amount of time speaks for the potency of the attack.

It actually makes the feat more impressive, since, according to the Ultimate Visual Guide and other sources, Emperor Palpatine "hardly ever" leaves Coruscant.

Erm... what?

This doesn't even make sense. How does the idea that he rarely left Coruscant make the fact that it took him longer to achieve such a result more impressive?

Also, I have the UVG, and I can see the quote you're referring to, and you're taking it out of context. It's stated, on page 64, under the Chapter Empire of Evil (which details the time period where Palpatine first became Emperor) under The Emporers' section, in the present tense. Meaning that the quote would only apply to what was the case at that particular time.

Meaning you have no logical basis in claiming that Byss was a Planet that Palpatine "rarely visited," as we have no idea exactly to what degree he left Coruscant after that particular point in time.

Ergo, it can be surmised that, over the course of two decades, Palpatine's presence was potent enough to cause planet-wide geological and metaphysical changes to a planet he hardly visited.

Sure, if we took a quote that only applies to when Palpatine first became Emperor, and applied it the entirety of his rule.

Once again, your assertions fail to make it so, Nebaris.

Don't be ridiculous. No matter how you look at it, the energy required to destroy a planet is always going to be greater than the energy required to alter its landscape (the fact that you would question this is laughable).

It is ultimately Palpatine who, at a period of advanced age and physical frailty, was able to absorb more punishment than Darth Bane.

Absorb more punishment? He didn't absorb the lightning in any way, he resisted the damage that it was causing. Your comparison is beyond being non parallel.

That calls for speculation, I'm afraid,

LOL. Are you ever going to get past committing the burden of proof fallacy? You made the point that it was essentially Palpatine's presence that altered the landscape of the planet, and I was simply pointing out how you lack the proof to assert such a thing. The fact that it's stated that it was his energies that achieved the result does not mean that the result was a natural product of them.

aside from being a very pathetic red herring.

Red herring? How so? Explain yourself.

Really, Nebaris, if you're going to try to distract people from the text by asserting that "Palpatine might have wanted to do it", let a better point result from it.

Now you're just being silly. I was in no way trying to "distract" people from the text, I was pointing out how the text does not necessarily come to the conclusion that you made. If you learnt how to analyse passages properly I wouldn't have to. The point is, the feat is no way near as impressive as you tried to make it out to be. Nothing points to what happened as a natural effect of Palpatine's power in the dark side, like you were trying to point out.

As I have said before, however, Palpatine hardly ever went to Byss, so occupied was he on Coruscant and further training himself in the dark side of the Force.

And as has been explained, this is only ever stated to be the case during the beginning of Palpatine's rule.

I'm afraid you fail to make a point, Nebaris. Freedon Nadd conquered a hostile planet, whereas Byss was already subjugated under the Galactic Empire. This wasn't about "conquering a planet" so much as it was "enslaving a planet", and making it a virtual, planet-sized Sith laboratory. Which Palpatine did. By himself. With the Force.

I'm afraid you fail to understand the point, Gideon. The fact that he conquered the planet rather than enslave it is insignificant. The point is, he, like Palpatine, singlehandedly used his force powers to dominate a Planet sized group of individuals.

[qoute]When he hardly visited.

As has been pointed out, unproven.

[quote]It is not a hyperbole.

Yes, it is. It's stated in the previous passage that he did so "slowly, but steadily," meaning that he didn't constantly do it. You don't really have a point here.

I am not saying that the Emperor just hacked away at their life energies and took all he wanted.

Wonderful, I never said you did.

But he did so constantly ('steadily'😉...

Constantly.

Steadily.

If you fail to see why I'm posting the definitions, here's a hint: they're not the same word.

when he was hardly ever there.

As can be seen, unproven.

I'm afraid that they really do.

As wonderful as this one word rebuttal is, it doesn't change the fact that the feats you've mentioned have been largely replicated, or surpassed, by Sith (including Bane) before him, and it doesn’t change the fact that it doesn't even add to what Sidious can already do.

You've yet to prove that Darth Bane "channelled and absorbed more power".

You're being purposefully dumb. Power capable of destroying an entire planet > power capable of altering the landscape of an entire planet.

Especially when the then-Chancellor Palpatine was able to absorb Force lightning full-on in the face, whereupon it melted,

He didn't absorb shit, Gideon, he tolerated the damage that was being caused by the lightning.

in an inferior position

Relevance? How does the inferior position add to the difficulty in resisting he bad effects of the lightning? Oh that's right, it doesn't.

for a long duration of time, yet still demonstrate enough power to nearly kill Jedi Master Mace Windu -- and all the while, the only weakness demonstrated was 'feigned'.

As in the weakness displayed after the lightning exchange had ended, sure.

So to recap, your argument sucks. The amount of lightning that he resisted the bad effects of is completely unknown. We have no idea how much lightning had been absorbed by Mace's lightsaber before being directed back at Palpatine. Not to mention, you’re committing endless irrelevant misdirections.

Darth Bane put himself into a coma in a surprisingly stupid maneuver,

Read Ro2 and know what you're talking about. He got completely taken off guard by a Jedi who sacrificed his life force to wrap Bane in a giant blue orb that directed Bane's lightning back onto him. There was no stupidity involved.

despite being protected by orbalisks.

Despite being protected by orbalisks? The orbalisks are what put him into the coma. They're weak to lightning, and upon being hit by millions of volts of the stuff, they injected toxins into Bane's body, and that was what put him into a coma.

And that Bane was killed when he clearly didn't absorb the attack

I think you'll find that Bane's perfectly alive and well by the end of Ro2, Gideon.

is proof enough that his lightning is a far cry from being "planet-destroying power" like you credit the Force Storm to be.

Your argument, again, makes zero sense. Your premise doesn't follow your conclusion. How would the idea that Bane had not absorbed his own lightning and was killed by it detract from its potency? Your points have been getting me seriously perplexed here, Gideon. I'd suggest putting down the Jack Daniels and continuing this when you're able to think clearly.

Ergo, one can conclude that the incident on Ruusan was "ritualistic in nature". 😉

I don’t know if you’re trying to be clever, or funny, here, but you fail on both counts. My main argument for Bane, being the amount of energy he was able to absorb, and the mastery he displayed in containing it and directing it, is not undermined by the fact that he had to receive the power in the first place through a ritual. As for Palpatine’s Force Storms, the ritualistic nature of them has everything to do with them being worthless. As explained, the nature of the Storms means that they don’t speak for Palpatine’s level of ability, and given that there’s no proof that he’d be able to use them against Bane in this scenario without destroying himself, they’re quite simply worthless.

Dealt with already.

You tried, Gideon, extremely hard, but no, nothing you’ve said changes the fact that there’s no proof that the altering of the Planet’s landscape was in any way a natural product of Palpatine’s power. The text does not undeniably point to that.

I'm afraid the text simply proves that he did so to the entire planet,

Seeing as you ignored most of them:

And exactly how did he do that? What were the circumstances? How many did he do this to? Did he do it to a large group of individuals all at once, or to them individually? How much time did it take him?

As for what the text indicates, all it refers to is the people of Byss. This does not indicate, nor imply, that the entire population were enslaved and drained of their life.

despite hardly ever being present on the planet itself.

As can be seen, unproven.

Excellent. I'm sure you'll have no problem proving it.

Given that they would have all essentially been able to do the same thing, the difference being the Ancient Sith was able to concentrate it into one force attack after attempting a complex Sith Ritual, and Nihilus was able to do so whilst not at his full level of power, and expending energy onto his ship and crew, the feat still wouldn't compare under the best circumstances.

Simple facts, Nebaris. Palpatine would use the life energies for his dark side experiments, as well as to prolong his own life.

Irrelevant misdirection.

That Byss's population is well in the billions and that it was his secret throne world, where he built up a small mini-empire, one can safely conclude that he did not attempt to butcher the people there.

Given that you haven't provided proof for the number of beings that he enslaved to have been any sort of relatively large portion of the population, as far as we know, Palpatine could have done as much without leaving any sizable dent in the population of the planet.

As for Palpatine being "on par" with the real titans of the Sith, he's not. He's above them. The numerous statements speak for themselves, as does this.

Well you would say that after constantly failing to prove that they solely reach your interpretation.

We need to get past the stages of grief. The first is denial. Palpatine is the most powerful Sith in history, and perhaps, with help, you can finally put your angered, tempered, unwilling attempt to contradict that to rest.

We clearly do. Now you can rely on flawed reasoning all you want, but at the end of the day, he's displayed nowhere near the power that Sith like Darth Bane, Exar Kun, or Darth Nihilus have, and nothing points to him being more powerful than any of them. Now start actually substantiating your points rather than arguing from personal incredulity and then get back to me.

Originally posted by MutantMessiah
Right, and the same goes for your assertions that Palpatine's dominance has already been cemented. Simply saying so doesn't make it the case. Difference being, I've previously provided the proof for my assertion numerous times (where your only counter has been whining about the concept of ambiguity), whereas all your arguments for Palpatine's dominance have been proven fallacious, on the constant.

Except Escape, myself, LS, Advent, and everybody else have provided ample proof and quotes that Sidious is #1, which he is. Just because you're too incompetent to understand the truth takes nothing away from the rest of us. Furthermore, you stating that you've proven an argument to be fallacious or even the fact that you've made any kind of logical argument, doesn't make it so. After 30 bans and no wins in debates, you have zero credibility.

...

Well done, you've proven that the technique itself is a very powerful one. The fact that the technique is an extremely powerful one does not mean that Palpatine has to possess a certain level of power to be able to execute it. From page 179 of the Essential Guide to the Force:

"When the Force is sensed and moved by emotion, from the very centre of the body, and meditated from the lower vital centers of the being, it acts with the destructive power of a storm, and the savagery of a beast.

I have learned to meditate Anger and Will with clarity and precision, and I have learned to open the hidden reservoirs of dark side Power.

Anger concentrated by Will in the vital center of the body creates a portal through which vast energies are released-the energies of the dark side of the Force."


And Palpatine himself has stated that he is the only one who has ever had the power to use this/these abilities. Try again.

As is explained, the ability is a ritual that focuses a minimal amount of energy in a certain way which unlocks a far greater source of power. It's not Palpatine's regular level of power, bottom line.

No, the force storm ritual was not Bane's level of power. Sidious' force storm was not a ritual, it was a force maneuver. You embarass yourself everytime you revert back to the Noobaris rules, in which you ignore canon and make up shit in a losing effort.

As you've constantly been doing, you're arguing from personal belief. There is nothing to suggest that altering the storm from its destructive nature to its teleportational nature requires any sort of impressive control.

Except for the fact that Escape has provided countless amounts of proof. You're just an idiot.

Now how about substantiating the control required to do that. Prove that the control wasn't a part of the limited control that the ability granted its user over it (as explained on page 60 in the Tales of the Jedi Companion: "The power also allows limited control of these storms."😉, and if you can do that, prove that the extra control over the Storms was anything impressive, or drop the point.

The fact that Sidious was the creator of these storms, that he alone had the power to use them, etc.

Prove that the control wasn't all a part of the limited control that the ability granted its user over it (as explained on page 60 in the Tales of the Jedi Companion: "The power also allows limited control of these storms."😉, and if you can do that, prove that the extra control over the Storms was anything impressive, or drop the point.

ROFL. He doesn't have to prove any of that because the evidence is pointed in his favor. It's your job to prove it. And since you can't debate for shit, you shift burden of proof onto others in an illogical fashion.

I could go on pwning the rest of your ridiculous crap, but you're an embarassment to society so no further pwnage is necessary..

Especially when the then-Chancellor Palpatine was able to absorb Force lightning full-on in the face, whereupon it melted, in an inferior position for a long duration of time, yet still demonstrate enough power to nearly kill Jedi Master Mace Windu -- and all the while, the only weakness demonstrated was 'feigned'. Darth Bane put himself into a coma in a surprisingly stupid maneuver, despite being protected by orbalisks.

Your actually wrong about this. Despite your assertion that the lightning could 'nearly kill Jedi Master Mace Windu ' Mace took several seconds of a fullpower blast from th toad without melting at all. The fact that Sisious melted just speaks of his frailty. Bane on the other hand knocked himself unconcious due to his raw power.

Originally posted by Darth Exodus
Your actually wrong about this. Despite your assertion that the lightning could 'nearly kill Jedi Master Mace Windu ' Mace took several seconds of a fullpower blast from th toad without melting at all. The fact that Sisious melted just speaks of his frailty. Bane on the other hand knocked himself unconcious due to his raw power.
Right and sidious by ROTJ got even stronger seeing he killed and turned 3 sith acolytes to charred skeletons, thats far greater than bane.

Originally posted by Darth Exodus
Your actually wrong about this. Despite your assertion that the lightning could 'nearly kill Jedi Master Mace Windu ' Mace took several seconds of a fullpower blast from th toad without melting at all. The fact that Sisious melted just speaks of his frailty. Bane on the other hand knocked himself unconcious due to his raw power.

Oh my.
OT-powerlevel Sidious did instakill a Batallion of Storm Troopers (more than 500 of them) with a single use of force lightning as a punishment. And he increased his power to entirely new levels after that to the level he was on during the DE series.

And so what? Bane knocked himself out due to his raw power? DE Sidious "ravaged space-time itself" and did tear entire Spaceship fleets apart with his power. Looks a little more impressive than knocking yourself out with you own force attacks, huh?

Bane.

Found this and thought that I should revive it for kicks.

I hope Nebaris sees this.

^ Pretty sure that would be considered spamming

I don't know what that means but anyway.....

As new evidence has been brought to my attention and due to my increased debating experience I felt that I should take anouther crack at this.

Sabers: In the sabers front, I see no reason why Bane shouldn't be able to take away a win. He has extremely potent attributes that are only hightened in RO2 by the added effect of the orbalisks. His speed is easily comparable to Sidious' as of POD and since it has been accepted in anouther thread that Bane> Mace then I see no reason why logically Bane shouldn't > Sids ( I know that Mace only beat ROTS Sids but still, Palps was defeated by a basic unskilled duelist) if you factor in the protection ect

Force: I am undecided. In my opinion Bane has equalled Sisious in the Lightning front and in World spanning power but the orbalisks might let him down in respect to their lightning vulnerability. However, Bane might have sufficient power to block all of Palps attacks with the Darkside feeding powers of the orbalisks.

Allout: Bane as he could realistically block Sidious' Force attacks and probably beat him in the Sabers. Also, I just think that he's a better fighter/Sith.