Superman vs. Wonder Woman

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Like Superman in the engagement with Darkseid on Kara's behalf, or even Superman's engagement with Diana in Rucka's sacrifice,
Batman had the benefit of sunboosting before dropping the shoe.

I actually don't mind overmuch if people want to post showings like that, but there should be some space devoted to explaining WHY things occur/occurred the way they do/did.

Batman with Superman's powers would be a relatively poor argument for Superman's sake, for instance, not just because Batman started off soaking up energy at the sun itself before engaging the JLA, but also because Batman, one of comicdom's greatest martial artists, is known for throwing arguably THE most effective punches relative to his strength level, of any hero around.

Of COURSE he's going to do major damage to Wonder Woman with his skill, newly suncharged strength, and Wonder Woman's lack of kryptonian-level invulnerability

It's worth pointing out, too, even with Clark's powers and Bruce expecting resistance from Earth's heroes, and being just come from the sun, he nearly got rocked by Wonder Woman's opening "greeting" ...

http://s228.photobucket.com/user/bluewaterrider/library/kmc?sort=3&page=1
(links to images of Superman/Batman #56, part 2 of the so-called "Superbat" storyline)

To continue, we'll see what happened and actually look at the narration Something you either didn't notice, or decided it best not to mention.

Talking about his fight with Nightwing in the previous issue, "He reminded me that Superman's powers come from the Sun. But I've been spending all my time in the dark. So here I am." "I feel...FULL. I fee RESTORED." He doesn't say he feels "overcharged," he doesn't say, "I feel more powerful than normal." He says "full" and "RESTORED." Pretty clear that the writer intended SuperBat to be back to normal levels. The best you could argue is that he was a little more powerful than normal, but nothing noticeable. And if it wasn't noticeable, then obviously it's not what you're trying to argue.

Now, you argue Batman's skill, and Batman "nearly got rocked." Let's take a look at the fight. As you can see, prior scan did have him punched at the end. To continue--

As you can see, he's actually pretty ok there. And he was sucker punched. Hard to argue "nearly rocked" when narration and on-panel art indicate he's fine, just knows he's been hit pretty hard. And I recall you trying to use this to argue Wonder Woman is stronger than Superman, by saying Batman said it's the hardest punch he's ever taken, bringing-up him being hit by Superman before as well as Darkseid. Yet, he only concludes it's Wonder Woman after saying he knows Clark is powerless, so looks like he's saying Superman hits harder to me. Anyways, I somewhat digressed. Let's continue.

Looks like he's taking her punches just fine when he's actually aware of her. And your argument about Batman's skill?

Doesn't look particularly skilled to me. In fact Superman one-shot Primaid(who Wonder Woman couldn't KO) with a similar blow. No, it doesn't really look like Batman is using much in regards to Martial Arts, nor is he amped beyond Superman's normal levels. The better argument about this compared to Superman is Batman outright says he's not pulling his punches like Superman would.

Oh, and Wonder Woman not only lacks Kryptonian-level durability, but Kryptonian-level strength. At least if that Kryptonian is Superman.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
If you're going by interviews, and think they supercede what is written in the books, you owe Carver an apology, for even P.R. can back up that Rucka said the following, regardless of what may or may not have been released in a later follow-up magazine to Wondy 219:

“We now have a situation where Kal has no reason to hold back at all – EVERY governor is off. He’s going to kill Doomsday, period.

Diana doesn’t want to kill Kal, though – that’s the last thing she wants to do, because Kal is not the problem. The problem is in Max, and she has to stop Max, one way or another. So, the fight is between two opponents who are at very cross purposes – [b]Kal is hitting her with everything he has, and Diana has to do everything she can do to survive that, and move on from that, and get to Max. It’s a pretty grueling fight.”
[/B]

I don't know if it's you're just ignorant of carter, or you're aware but are using that as an excuse to bolster Wonder Woman. But either way, you don't want to go there. In fact, the writer also cited Wonder Woman only had a chance due to Superman's mindset, and the comic itself shows that. So another reason you don't want to go there.

Anyone that thinks WW stands a chance has their mind warped by political correctness

Originally posted by Delta1938
To continue, we'll see what happened and actually look at the narration Something you either didn't notice, or decided it best not to mention.

Or, more likely, and you should know I speak true when I say this from much interaction with me in days past:

-- Figured there's no need to mention narration plainly visible in the scans given.
-- Didn't have any more of this issue in my collection of images.
-- Know with some certainty I'm dealing with a guy who will supply extra scans for his side if I'm missing anything.

Originally posted by Delta1938

Talking about his fight with Nightwing in the previous issue, "He reminded me that Superman's powers come from the Sun. But I've been spending all my time in the dark. So here I am." "I feel...FULL. I fee RESTORED." He doesn't say he feels "overcharged," he doesn't say, "I feel more powerful than normal." He says "full" and "RESTORED." Pretty clear that the writer intended SuperBat to be back to normal levels. The best you could argue is that he was a little more powerful than normal, but nothing noticeable. And if it wasn't noticeable, then obviously it's not what you're trying to argue.

Again, at least one other option that you're not considering. Batman himself is not fully aware of all that he should be aware of. How would it slip his mind that his powers come from the Sun and that he needs a recharge? Why would he need Dick to remind him? Obviously something is off with the way he perceives things, too, and he SAYS as much in the scans you and I showed.
Then, too, being brand-new to Kryptonian sun power, would he be able to accurately guage what "Earth standard" levels of power are compared to suncharged.
And yes, I would definitely argue "more powerful than normal being" in THAT kind of proximity to the sun. That was point of going there and where he says he is.
How much more powerful? How long did Bats actually stay there? I cannot know that, only that it was long enough that he felt it did the job and then some.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Or, more likely, and you should know I speak true when I say this from much interaction with me in days past:

-- Figured there's no need to mention narration plainly visible in the scans given.
-- Didn't have any more of this issue in my collection of images.
-- Know with some certainty I'm dealing with a guy who will supply extra scans for his side if I'm missing anything.

Again, at least one other option that you're not considering. Batman himself is not fully aware of all that he should be aware of. How would it slip his mind that his powers come from the Sun and that he needs a recharge? Why would he need Dick to remind him? Obviously something is off with the way he perceives things, too, and he SAYS as much in the scans you and I showed.
Then, too, being brand-new to Kryptonian sun power, would he be able to accurately guage what "Earth standard" levels of power are compared to suncharged.
And yes, I would definitely argue "more powerful than normal being" in THAT kind of proximity to the sun. That was point of going there and where he says he is.
How much more powerful? How long did Bats actually stay there? I cannot know that, only that it was long enough that he felt it did the job and then some.

If the author intended him to have been charged beyond normal, then there would've been something indicating he was charged beyond normal. You automatically assumed he was super charged even though the narration doesn't bring that up. And what do you mean by "it dd the job and then some?" Trying to subtly say he WAS charged beyond normal and hope it influences people? You sneaky scamp.

Originally posted by Delta1938

Now, you argue Batman's skill, and Batman "nearly got rocked." Let's take a look at the fight. As you can see, prior scan did have him punched at the end. To continue--

As you can see, he's actually pretty ok there. And he was sucker punched. Hard to argue "nearly rocked" when narration and on-panel art indicate he's fine, just knows he's been hit pretty hard. And I recall you trying to use this to argue Wonder Woman is stronger than Superman, by saying Batman said it's the hardest punch he's ever taken, bringing-up him being hit by Superman before as well as Darkseid.

He was knocked from Earth orbit or thereabouts and is sitting in a crater holding his jaw thinking about how hard he's been hit and that's NOT "nearly rocked" to you? When you know he's endured strikes like THIS before?

http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=1zg7o1i&s=7#.U9mS6GOqTys

Suffice to say, then, that phrase means something very different to you than it does to me.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
He was knocked from Earth orbit or thereabouts and is sitting in a crater holding his jaw thinking about how hard he's been hit and that's NOT "nearly rocked" to you? When you know he's endured strikes like THIS before?

http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=1zg7o1i&s=7#.U9mS6GOqTys

Suffice to say, then, that phrase means something very different to you than it does to me.

He's sitting up, and gets back up fine shortly after. Narration simply says he's been hit quite hard. Not that he was rocked. He was fine taking her punches when aware. One could even make the argument she was flying at super speed and that added to the impact, but I won't go there. Being knocked down by a sucker punch doesn't prove he was rocked. Darkseid was pulling his punches against Batman, no matter what you try and argue. Going by your logic, since she hit SuperBat harder than Darkseid hit Batman(Mother Box or not), that would mean she hits harder than Darkseid. Are you prepared to make that argument?

Originally posted by Delta1938

I somewhat digressed. Let's continue.

Looks like he's taking her punches just fine when he's actually aware of her.

Batman pointedly tells us the JLA is pulling their punches in your scans:

"they're misguided. Not just in their goal ... in the way they fight. They're pulling punches. They don't want to hurt me ...

Originally posted by Delta1938

And your argument about Batman's skill?

Doesn't look particularly skilled to me.

😕

He takes Wonder Woman, Red Tornado, Hawkgirl, Firestorm, AND John Stewart out of the equation with exactly 3 total moves and you don't consider that skilled fighting?

Even though he calculates exactly how hard he'd need to hit Wondy and where to give him time enough to deal with the others to begin that page?

The comicbook fights you've seen before now must have been masterpieces.

What exactly would Batman have needed to have shown us to have demonstrated skill to you?

So in 1 hand we have Superman fans using Superman flying Diana to the sun as a speed ft. Then when it's used against them they want to change the story. Thumbs up.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Batman pointedly tells us the JLA is pulling their punches in your scans:

"they're misguided. Not just in their goal ... in the way they fight. [b]They're pulling punches. They don't want to hurt me ...

😕

He takes Wonder Woman, Red Tornado, Hawkgirl, Firestorm, AND John Stewart out of the equation with exactly 3 total moves and you don't consider that skilled fighting?

Even though he calculates exactly how hard he'd need to hit Wondy and where to give him time enough to deal with the others to begin that page?

The comicbook fights you've seen before now must have been masterpieces.

What exactly would Batman have needed to have shown us to have demonstrated skill to you? [/B]

I already cited them holding back. Are you trying to argue Wonder Woman was holding back her first punch to get her attention? We've already seen she can't knock Superman out even with sneak attacks.

You argued SuperBat would be capable of hitting harder than Superman partially because of his hand-to-hand combat skill. And now you're bringing-up tactics, not technique, to try and make me look ridiculous about SuperBat's punch? You know damn well what I was talking about. You're better than this. Quit trying to manipulate what I say because the scene didn't fit your argument. I even compared the blow that SuperBat did to Wonder Woman to what Superman did to Primaid.

Originally posted by carver9
So in 1 hand we have Superman fans using Superman flying Diana to the sun as a speed ft. Then when it's used against them they want to change the story. Thumbs up.

I don't even know what you're talking about, other than being more carter than normal, but even going to near Venus and back in such a short time period is pretty fast flying. How about if you're going to hang around this thread, you actually respond to me destroying your flawed perception of the SACRIFICE fight instead of pretending I didn't ether you there and hoping I forget about it? This is just another example of you breaking so easily. And yes, you do. You having a "poker face" here doesn't change that you proved to me how easy you break on Xbox LIVE. You can't hide you breaking there.

Originally posted by Delta1938

I don't know if it's you're just ignorant of carter, or you're aware but are using that as an excuse to bolster Wonder Woman. But either way, you don't want to go there. In fact, the writer also cited Wonder Woman only had a chance due to Superman's mindset, and the comic itself shows that. So another reason you don't want to go there.

On the contrary.

Not only do I want to go there, I did so earlier.

In fact, I copied and pasted Greg Rucka's complete interview and got P.R. to confirm that it was legit 2 years ago knowing that it would one day disappear and could only survive afterward on a forum like this one.

You can verify that yourself by clicking the following link:

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=525118&pagenumber=7

Actually, since that interview has come up, what, like 10 times now?

I'll simply go ahead and post the text of the interview here in a 2 part post:

Originally from Newsarama, circa 2005.

(Part 1.)

The “Sacrifice” ends today.

The four part crossover, launched in The OMAC Project #3, and running through Superman #219, Action Comics #829, Adventures of Superman #642 and Wonder Woman #219 concludes with Wonder Woman, in stores today, as well as The OMAC Project #4, which follows the after effects of the story.

While we’re not about to spoil the events of the final issue of the crossover here (and ask that those responding to the story don’t as well – there will be a chance for that later this week), we did catch up with OMAC, Adventures and Wonder Woman writer Greg Rucka for some insight on the story. Though be warned – there are slight spoilers ahead for the “Sacrifice” story.

Although first off, perhaps, as Rucka sees it, an apology is in order.

“I want to say, before anything else that we tried very hard to build OMAC so that you weren’t obligated to buy anything else, and we failed,” Rucka said. “We really did. I’ll cop to it – I won’t lie about it. And we did it by playing dirty pool too – if you were buying The OMAC Project, you really need the Superman and Wonder Woman books to know what’s happening in issue #4 of the miniseries. If you don’t read them, it’s possible to understand them, but you don’t get the emotional resonance. That was a little bit of dirty pool, but we didn’t plan it out that way – we weren’t looking to spring this on people, but that’s the way it happened, and again, we’re sorry. So instead of a six issue miniseries, you get a ten issue miniseries, and I won’t fault any reader for not picking it up. I’d still suggest them though, because they’re a good story and worth reading, but I’d suggest, if nothing else, you pick up Wonder Woman #219 at the very least – call it issue OMAC #3.5 if you must, because it sets up the events of OMAC #4.”

Going back from there, the events of “Sacrifice” themselves made themselves clear to Rucka and the other Countdown writers a while ago, and have to deal with dividing the “Trinity:” Superman, Batman, and Wonder Woman – getting them to respective places where they don’t trust one another or even, in the worst case scenarios, see the others as friends and allies.

It all goes back to Max Lord and his involvement in Countdown.

Superman #219“We always knew what happened – as soon as we had the Max piece of Countdown, we knew that there were other things that we had to execute, and we wanted to make sure it worked,” Rucka said. “We were breaking apart the ‘trinity,’ as we’d said several times. We had to have the reasons for the breaks – we knew the reasons, and we knew that had to show them. For both Diana and Bruce, what they do is so active and obvious, but for Kal, it’s far more subtle and going to be more difficult to see, and won’t really manifest until Infinite Crisis starts to come out. His ‘crisis’ is less of one that you can look at and point to – something like, ‘You made a spy satellite, you bastard!’ You can’t do that with Superman, but likewise, he has a crisis that affects him just as much as the actions Bruce and Diana undertaken that force the other two in the trinity away from them.”

Knowing what they had to do, and knowing where they were going to do it though, were two separate things. It was [Superman Group Editor] Eddie Berganza who came up with the idea of doing it as sort of a pseudo-mystery over the course of the month, building up to OMAC #4,” Rucka said. “At that point, we had to figure out how to make it work, so that what you’d be getting is a tight six issue story within a story, that starts with OMAC #3 and ends with OMAC #4, and incorporates the Superman and Wonder Woman titles over the course of July. And obviously, after that, there will be repercussions – it’s not like the last panel of OMAC #4 has the three of them walking away hand in hand, but we needed to fit that story in.”

Enter Superman writer Mark Verheiden and Action Comics writer Gail Simone. Both new on their respective titles, and both asked to incorporate a crossover into their ongoing storylines.

Action Comics #829“We had a conference call that was Mark, Gail, Eddie, Joan [Hilty, OMAC editor], Ivan [Cohen, Wonder Woman editor] and myself breaking things down, and I have to say that, for both Mark and Gail, and having been the crossover ***** myself (take a look at Detective), it’s a hard thing to be on the third issue of your run, and have a crossover dropped in your lap. They both stood up, took the hit, and did their part beautifully. These kinds of things live or die on whether or not people execute. You cannot have a crossover if four of your writers are all there, doing the heavy lifting, and doing everything that’s required, and the fifth writer says, ‘Well, I’ll service it on two pages, and my other twenty pages will be eaten up by my subplots.’ That’s happened too, in many a crossover. Nothing kills a story faster. But like I said, Mark and Gail came in with their best games, and I was very grateful. Very grateful, because it wouldn’t have worked without them.”

Rucka's 2005 Newsarama "Sacrifice" Interview, continued...
(Part 2 of 2.)

The story the three writers came up with was sparked by Max Lord, in OMAC #3 starting his plans to control Superman’s mind – something he’d been working on for years.

“I want to point out that, as J’onn said, the work that needed to be done in Kal’s mind took Max years to do, it’s not even a direct control – what Max has done is he’s built scenarios that are just the ultimate virtual reality – Superman is 99% convinced of what is going on is, in fact, real,” Rucka said. “But the effort Max had to put into this was tremendous – and unique. It’s not as if he left a little door in Superman’s head saying, ‘Enter’ so that the telepath du jour can jump behind the wheel and play the DCU’s version of Being John Malkovich.”

Throughout the crossover, Superman has believed himself to be battling Brainaic, Darkseid, and Ruin in the three consecutive issues of the Superman books. And, as Superman tragically learned in Adventures #642, he wasn’t fighting any of his enemies at all – he was fighting, and nearly killing Batman in the JLA Watchtower.

“Max created a paranoid delusion in Superman’s mind that recast him as the voice of trust and reason in the scenarios, i.e., the priest or Pa Kent,” Rucka said. “Then, the incident is always based on the same thing, which is his inability to save someone that he loves, and the primary person in each, of course, being Lois. The goal of Max’s operation is ultimately to break the Trinity, but specifically, to motivate Superman to kill Batman, which is not an easy thing to do. You have to get Superman to such an emotionally distraught and temporarily deranged state that he’s willing to pull off all of the governors that he lives with every second of every day, to get him to the point where he’s going after someone with everything that he’s got.

“But in point of fact, even then, Max’s control doesn’t work fully – if he had gone after Batman with everything he had, Batman would have been a puddle. In Adventures #642, when you see the reveal of what really happened, it’s somewhat subtextual – during the fight, you see the discordant images in his memories of the fight when Diana and J’onn are in his head – he sees Batman, so there’s some little bit of him holding back.”

Adventurs of Superman #642By the end of Adventures #642 though, Max’s control is in full sway again, Superman is a paranoiac again, and escapes, setting the stage for Wonder Woman #219 - where he finds his final challenge.

“Basically, it comes down to the moment in #219 of making Superman believe from all of his senses, all of his perceptions, that Doomsday is killing Lois, and he is powerless to stop it,” Rucka said. “In that scenario, Kal sees Diana as Doomsday, and does not see Max at all. When he’s in this scenario, he’s held back from saving ‘Lois’ at first, but when he’s freed, he’s half out of his mind with grief and rage.”

What’s next? Two words: Ready? Fight!

“Diana comes looking for Kal, fearing the worst and hoping for the best,” Rucka said. “Fearing in that she has the kryptonite from the Batcave, and ‘hoping’ is that she won’t need to use it on her friend, and Max will listen to reason. But how likely is that?

“We now have a situation where Kal has no reason to hold back at all – every governor is off. He’s going to kill Doomsday, period. Dana doesn’t want to kill Kal, though – that’s the last thing she wasn’t to do, because Kal is not the problem. The problem is in Max, and she has to stop Max, one way or another. So, the fight is between two opponents whoa re at very cross purposes – Kal is hitting her with everything he has, and Diana has to do everything she can do to survive that, and move on from that, and get to Max. It’s a pretty grueling fight.”

And by “grueling,” Rucka means…grueling.

"One of the things I try to include when I write scenes or fights such as this is that I always want the fights to have an effect. I always go back to the O’Neil/Cowyan Question fights – the moves were logically placed, there was no banter, and at the end, people were hurt. That said, I approached it in that manner – if you’re Wonder Woman, and Superman comes at you with this, what are you only options to stop it? There aren’t many. If he comes at you with heat vision, you need to stop that. One way of stopping that is to shove your thumbs into his eyes. She may be one of the only people in the universe who could hope to do that with a hint of success, so does she do it? She has to.

“Neither of them comes out of this looking pretty.”

So…after the fight, and into OMAC #4, is Diana in any state of mind to make a rational decision about stopping Max? After all, he’s controlled Superman once – he will do it again.

Rucka pulled down his teaser shield.

The OMAC Project #4“In #220, Diana has a line saying, “When one is possessed with the wisdom of Athena, self-delusion is difficult, but not impossible.” It’s very hard for her not to see things as they are. That’s part of who she is. She’s a warrior, as much as she is a teacher and leader and a ruler. She comes from a culture where that is part of who you are.

“No, she never hits the same emotional level Kal is at in the fight, which is what helps to save her – Superman’s coming at her half out of his mind. He’s not fighting smart. She has to be smart all the way through it, and she’s Diana, so it’s very hard to make her loose her composure – which can be taken as something that’s good for Max…or bad.”

So you want to post the same interview that backs the point that she was saved by Superman's psychological state making him fight like an idiot? The one punch he got on her knocked her out and incapacitated her for a while. Otherwise, outside of the freeze breath hit and breaking her wrist easily, he never actually hits her. Your interview does more harm than good for you.

Originally posted by Delta1938
So what? It was canon according to the author then DC decided it was non-canon later on?

Wagner said at first it was canon. Then Didio said later on, iirc, that it wasn't.

It's not like I don't want it to be canon either; that scene where Superman arrives on Themiscyra for the first time is ****ing boss.

Originally posted by carver9
So in 1 hand we have Superman fans using Superman flying Diana to the sun as a speed ft. Then when it's used against them they want to change the story. Thumbs up.

Shut up.

Originally posted by carver9
Me too.

Shut up x2.

==========

Guys, WHY are you talking about Batman with Superman's powers? Did I not just say it wasn't valid from Superman's POV?

And even if Superman was or wasn't amped in Sacrifice, I don't see how it matters.

Originally posted by -Pr-
Wagner said at first it was canon. Then Didio said later on, iirc, that it wasn't.

It's not like I don't want it to be canon either; that scene where Superman arrives on Themiscyra for the first time is ****ing boss.

Guys, WHY are you talking about Batman with Superman's powers? Did I not just say it wasn't valid from Superman's POV?

And even if Superman was or wasn't amped in Sacrifice, I don't see how it matters.

So I guess the writer at the least wrote it as canon, and either editorial disagreed or decided to make it non-canon.

I'm pretty sure Blue's bringing it up because he wants to argue SuperBat with Superman's powers at an amped level was nearly KOed by Wonder Woman, even though the comic doesn't support the amped stance, he leaves-out she sucker punched him, and he wasn't rocked. Just look at how he tried arguing Batman's skill would make him punch harder(amped or not) than Superman, I showed what he did to Wonder Woman and it didn't look too skilled(and even pointed-out it looked rather similar to Superman one-shotting Primaid) and then he takes my response and strawmans it combat tactics mean SuperBat was fighting with skill when I clearly meant technique.

And while I agree it's not definitive, I don't see how the SuperBat example can't support the rest. He treated her like she wasn't even a threat in LEAGUE OF ONE and still looked blatantly better, did the same during FOR TOMORROW, SACRIFICE and WW #175 show her as being physically dominated and winning by tactics that would at least be far harder to pull off when he's in a normal mental state, he was ragdolling her and stalemating her plus Batman, Kyle, J'onn and I think Wally(not sure) during KING OF THE WORLD, and that SUPERMAN/BATMAN time messed with thing. And that's not bringing in comparative examples. Things like SuperBats and that chick cursed by Zeus who drained Superman and twice one-shot WW just support the rest.

The problem is that for Superman and Wonder Woman to fight, there almost always has to be extenuating circumstances. Like when Superman fights Billy, etc.

While I would agree that, in general, their one-on-one's have generally ended with him looking superior either way, we also have to take in to account the feats of the two at their average. Diana is a bonafide herald. She's one of the most powerful heralds in DC (and yes, I said Heralds, not women).

I think it would be lunacy to say she wouldn't challenge him. She's strong enough to hurt him, and has done in the past. She will hit him due to her skill.

In the end though, he still wins for me. He has more stamina than her, can take more hits, and he will get his own physical licks in. Plus, when Superman actually lands a blow? ****, it's gonna hurt.

And to clarify, i'm talking both at their average.

I don't want to sound anti feminists, but WW's average is making sandwiches 😈

Jk

Originally posted by Rao Kal El
I don't want to sound anti feminists, but WW's average is making sandwiches 😈

That's not anti-feminist, that's just plain old sexism.

I bet they don't even HAVE sandwiches on Themyscira. What a horrible place that would be. 🙁

Originally posted by -Pr-
That's not anti-feminist, that's just plain old sexism.

I bet they don't even HAVE sandwiches on Themyscira. What a horrible place that would be. 🙁

According to Wonder Woman, there being no men is WHY it's called "Paradise Island." So, if you're like invisible so they don't know there's a man around, probably a rather nice place.

Not if the sandwich has me in the middle of Diana and Donna 😉

Originally posted by Rao Kal El
Not if the sandwich has me in the middle of Diana and Donna 😉

They're not making you tortas.