Superman vs. Wonder Woman

Originally posted by -Pr-
Her not mentioning it doesn't mean it doesn't exist, imo. Especially with the overwhelming "he's not holding back, he's a raging monster" theme running through the comic.

From my point of view:

Diana is fighting a raging monster that hits harder than she does, has more ranged attacks than she does, and can take more damage than she can.

She fully admits she'd trying to slow him down. Not win, but slow him down.

IMO she was holding on, but barely. He was winning. If she was winning, why kill Maxwell Lord?

So I think talking about an amp is largely redundant, when he was hitting her harder than normally anyway.

While true her not mentioning i doesn't mean it doesn't exist, I would think if the author intended him to be amped, he'd have let us know. If not through her, through someone or something else. Similar to me pointing-out Superman was weakened in SUPERMAN/BATMAN #4, pointing-out 3 examples all either implying or practically saying/showing Superman was weakened, in the same page.

If she was winning, why kill Max? Not sure if that's to me specifically or just you giving your view of the fight in general.

It is true he was hitting her harder than normal(well, technically he really only connected once) simply because of his mind state, but that shows how much he's above her physically. Unless one goes the he was amped thing, how could he not be well above her breaking her wrist like he did? Arguing her durability is disproportionately low compared to her strength like Blue does(which, I'd say is true to a degree) only goes so far(that's just me talking about it in general, not specifically arguing with anything you've said).

Originally posted by Delta1938
While true her not mentioning i doesn't mean it doesn't exist, I would think if the author intended him to be amped, he'd have let us know. If not through her, through someone or something else. Similar to me pointing-out Superman was weakened in SUPERMAN/BATMAN #4, pointing-out 3 examples all either implying or practically saying/showing Superman was weakened, in the same page.

If she was winning, why kill Max? Not sure if that's to me specifically or just you giving your view of the fight in general.

It is true he was hitting her harder than normal(well, technically he really only connected once) simply because of his mind state, but that shows how much he's above her physically. Unless one goes the he was amped thing, how could he not be well above her breaking her wrist like he did? Arguing her durability is disproportionately low compared to her strength like Blue does(which, I'd say is true to a degree) only goes so far(that's just me talking about it in general, not specifically arguing with anything you've said).

I think the presence of the sun alone, error or not, still tells us he was at least somewhat amped. Which weakening are you talking about? I must have missed that part of your post.

No it was a general question that I think about any time anyone says she was winning. If she was winning, she shouldn't have needed to kill Max. Yet Rucka seemed to portray it as her only option. She might have been able to kill Superman, but even her tiara throw only slowed him down. He healed that thing in seconds.

I think under certain circumstances, yes, Superman is strong enough to snap Diana's wrist. Hell, I could snap a person's wrist. The problem is that, in this fight, Superman isn't the same person he was in Sacrifice, so to me, why even talk about it? He has a ****ton of other strength feats that put him above her.

Originally posted by -Pr-
I think the presence of the sun alone, error or not, still tells us he was at least somewhat amped. Which weakening are you talking about? I must have missed that part of your post.

No it was a general question that I think about any time anyone says she was winning. If she was winning, she shouldn't have needed to kill Max. Yet Rucka seemed to portray it as her only option. She might have been able to kill Superman, but even her tiara throw only slowed him down. He healed that thing in seconds.

I think under certain circumstances, yes, Superman is strong enough to snap Diana's wrist. Hell, I could snap a person's wrist. The problem is that, in this fight, Superman isn't the same person he was in Sacrifice, so to me, why even talk about it? He has a ****ton of other strength feats that put him above her.

Like I said, if the author intended it, you'd think he'd have something else mentioned, whether her or someone else. And actually you didn't miss anything I posted. This was an argument in another thread. I simply brought-up him being weakened against Captain Marvel as an example of the writer showing it. There were three different things implying or showing Superman to be effected by the Kryptonite meteor right before Captain Marvel attacked, not to mention the stuff that happened in prior issues establishing it. Basically, my point was in that comic the writer showed multiple examples in the same page to get across, "Hey, Superman is feeling that Green K."

Yeah, people do seem to think her surviving and causing pain means she was out performing him or something. Really, how she failed to KO him actually doesn't have her look that great I have to say.

If you mean he normally wouldn't be trying that hard to break her wrist, I'd agree. I was simply pointing-out I don't see a peer or near-peer getting her wrist broken as easily as he did it. But yep, he does have a whole bunch of other examples, both straight-up feats and showings, that put him above her, from noticeably to a lot. I just bring this up because SACRIFICE gets talked-up a LOT like it was an absolutely amazing showing, when she pretty much was doing what she could to survive. And I would argue the tiara only stopped him because he was shocked out of his illusion. Although under a different writer, he wasn't stopped and kept fighting when Kryptonite Man Batman had slashed his throat.

And while people do bring-up she wasn't trying to kill him, and it is true she likely could've done more damage if she aimed it to try and take his head off instead of just slash his throat, when they bring this against a Superman who is in his right mind they don't realize, and then flat-out ignore when pointed-out to them, how he could've just deflected it or dodged it in his right mind. So I guess shit like that is why I really point-out how physically above her he was in there.

Originally posted by -Pr-
If he's closer to the sun, it's naturally implied that he's receiving an amp. It's common sense.

That said, I really don't see how it matters. He wasn't sundipping or anything.

1. How does Diana prevent Kal's heat vision from striking her when they're in space? Is she holding his eyelids shut or is he burning her thumbs?

Combination of the two, but your second question really has the answer you're looking for. Bearing in mind that, at least as I've been lead to believe, Kal's heat vision is his "trump power," the most powerful weapon in his arsenal...and that it depletes in strength rather quickly as a result.

The first blasts he fires she manages to deflect--those come a full strength. The second blasts are weaker, and those are the ones that actually scar/burn her. By the time she gets her thumbs into his eyes, the blasts--while still incredibly powerful (and I hasten to add this because I don't want to diminish how tought Diana is at all)--aren't at their full destructive power.

He was at peak capacity physically. He certainly was not at peak capacity mentally--he was out of his mind with grief and rage. Diana remained rational and in control of herself and her emotions throughout the entire battle.

http://comicboards.com/php/show.php?msg=comicbattles-2005072909412400&layout=subject&window=yes

The writer himself says he wasn't amped and it was never even implied. So why would we assume he was amped?

Originally posted by -Pr-
I think the presence of the sun alone, error or not, still tells us he was at least somewhat amped. Which weakening are you talking about? I must have missed that part of your post.

No it was a general question that I think about any time anyone says she was winning. If she was winning, she shouldn't have needed to kill Max. Yet Rucka seemed to portray it as her only option. She might have been able to kill Superman, but even her tiara throw only slowed him down. He healed that thing in seconds.

I think under certain circumstances, yes, Superman is strong enough to snap Diana's wrist. Hell, I could snap a person's wrist. The problem is that, in this fight, Superman isn't the same person he was in Sacrifice, so to me, why even talk about it? He has a ****ton of other strength feats that put him above her.

Superman 9/10.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Top tiers don't break top tier bones with just squeezing. Not by squeezing through an indestructible object. I can't picture Superman breaking Captain Marvel or Orion's bones like that.

I can .

Guess you're not half the fan I thought you were....

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
I can .

Guess you're not half the fan I thought you were....

SHUT UP DORKSAINT!! By command of the ruler of the House Of El!!!! 😠

Originally posted by -Pr-

No it was a general question that I think about any time anyone says she was winning. If she was winning, she shouldn't have needed to kill Max. Yet Rucka seemed to portray it as her only option. She might have been able to kill Superman, but even her tiara throw only slowed him down. He healed that thing in seconds.

I don't know if I'd go as far to say that Diana was "winning," but she bought herself enough time to think of a solution, and that was her goal imo.

Personally, I think her only options were killing Max or killing Superman. She tried the lasso and she couldn't ensnare him. Sure, she could have kept trying, but there was a pretty good change he would have killed her before she finally got it around him.

I don't know whether he was amped or not, but he was certainly not holding back, which accounts for the brutality of his attacks.

I've always maintained that Diana can stay with Clark, but she would have a hard time ko'ing him. His durability and strength along with his other powers just make it very, very difficult. That being said, her weaponry does give her kill options, but when would she ever use those?

The Sacrifice story just showed me that she can take a hell of a beating and dish it back. I don't think it is indicative of how a normal fight would go between the two of them. I also don't think it showed that Clark is so far above her that she is without options.

Originally posted by -Pr-

If she was winning, why kill Maxwell Lord?

Originally posted by Delta1938

If she was winning, why kill Max? Not sure if that's to me specifically or just you giving your view of the fight in general.

Originally posted by -Pr-

No it was a general question that I think about any time anyone says she was winning. If she was winning, she shouldn't have needed to kill Max.

Your reasoning is too short term.

The problem at the point where Diana snapped Max's neck was not the immediate threat Superman posed.
The problem was that Max could reassert control at ANY time in the future, under any circumstances.
This is made fairly explicit in the story, or at least in Wonder Woman v2. #219, where this fight took place.

Click the following link and re-read what you seem to have missed, please:

http://s228.photobucket.com/user/bluewaterrider/library/kmc/why%20max%20got%20nixed?sort=9&page=1

Photobucket was seldom used by me before because it has the annoying tendency to linkbreak whenever any client tries to reorganize anything.

Knowing that, it's probably a good idea to share the written text of the scans I gave above.

There are six of them. Note that the spacing reflects where one scan ends and another begins. Note that the material is presented in the order that best answers the question you posed, not perfect chronological story order.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Max: I'll never let him go.
Wonder Woman: You will. Tell me how to free him from your control.
Max: Kill me.

Superman: ... I saw ... He made me watch ... Doomsday ...
[i]He tore Lois apart.
Wonder Woman: It wasn't real.
Max: It was to him. And will be AGAIN, because you can't keep this lasso on me forever. And the NEXT time he'll KILL Batman ... or Lois ... or you.

Max: And before you think knocking me out is the answer, let me tell you, it isn't. Because eventually, I'll wake up, if only for a moment. And when I do, Superman will dance for me again. It's taken years for me to achieve this, to thread his mind with the right visions of horror and paranoia.
As long as I live, Superman's mind is mine to control.

Wonder Woman: Free him! Do it now!
Max: Why? I have ABSOLUTE control of Superman. That's something even Lex hasn't been able to manage, and he's been trying for far longer than I have.

Max: You think I've lied to you, but I haven't. I can't.*
He's mine.

Max: As long as I LIVE, Superman's mind is mine to control.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[/i]

*Note that Diana's magic lasso, which compels people to tell the truth, is wrapped around Max as he says this.

She had Superman dead to rights at the end of the fight. She could have done whatever she wanted to him. His throat was sliced.

Also, why wouldn't she kill Max Lord when he could get possession of Superman at any time and have him repeat everything be did while under Max control? She killed Max to protect not only Superman but the rest of the JLA (remember, he almost killed Batman).

Ummm...

Max: It was to him. And will be AGAIN, because you can't keep this lasso on me forever. And the NEXT time he'll KILL Batman ... or Lois ... or you

Originally posted by Delta1938
Nah, I'm saying this doesn't count.

YouTube video

Since you asked nicely, Superman wins.

WW wins, barely.

Originally posted by Rao Kal El
Ummm...

Max: It was to him. And will be AGAIN, because you can't keep this lasso on me forever. And the NEXT time he'll KILL Batman ... or Lois ... or [b]you [/B]

😬

Now I know how to make words BIG!!

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
😬

Now I know how to make words BIG!!

Your welcome 🙂

👆

Originally posted by Delta1938

your argument about Batman's skill?

Doesn't look particularly skilled to me. In fact Superman one-shot Primaid(who Wonder Woman couldn't KO) with a similar blow.

There's a fairly big discussion to be had on this.

For starters, why you think comic writers are going to accurately reflect what happens in true martial arts engagements and/or to what degree.
Part of the reason I posted that Rucka "Sacrifice" interview, incidentally, was so that people could see Rucka was getting inspiration from other comic writers when considering how to script the fight (Rucka specifically names O'Neil and one other, IIRC), and almost certainly not from videos on Krav Maga from YouTube, which was not much like the worldwide phenomenon it is now back in 2005.

Regarding the Batman blow, there was no effort on my part to make you look ridiculous. SuperBats/Wondy was not a one-on-one engagement. Bats was being dogpiled. Gently, perhaps, for even he acknowledged the group was trying not to hurt him, but dogpiled nonetheless. There was no real time for him to treat Diana to the kind of lesson exchange he had with say, Karate Kid
(part of Batman's Legion adventure over in Brave and the Bold) so that we could marvel at his technique. I genuinely do wonder what in the world you expected to see above and beyond what we actually get.

You mention Primaid. I'm really not sure why.
Superman catches her by surprise and drops her momentarily, true, but Primaid is up again on the very next page. Contrast that to SuperBats' punch to Diana.
She doesn't appear, as you mentioned yourself, for the remainder of the fight.
Primaid probably wouldn't have been knocked out of a boxing ring; Diana is sent from the Moon all the way down to the surface of the Earth.
SuperBats punch is more effective in taking the opponent out, for a longer period of time, and sending them a much, much further distance. What there contradicts the idea that Batman is more effective than Superman as a striker?

It's also not true that Wonder Woman proved unable to knockout Primaid.
You can argue she made use of her environment to do so, of course, but that was standard fare in this story. In fact, Primaid versus Wonder Woman bookends Superman using the White Martians vulnerability to heat to bring Protex down in roughly the same time frame.

At any rate, so that you and others can see the knockouts for your selves:

(Sources: JLA v1 #s 2 and 4, New World Order)

http://s228.photobucket.com/user/bluewaterrider/library/Sakara%20rescues/superwoman/primaid?sort=9&postlogin=true&page=1

Originally posted by celeyhyga17
Makes me almost want to join the House of El.

Almost?

Give in to the truth.

You WANT to be a part of us.

I will allow you the HONOR of joining The House of El under 2 conditions.

1. YOU MUST PUBLICLY DENOUNCE FALSE KING JAKETHEBANK.

2. YOU MUST PUBLICLY DENOUNCE THE THOR CORPS.

Do these 2 things and you will join us in the sun.