Originally posted by Delta1938
SHUT UP DORKSAINT!! By command of the ruler of the House Of El!!!! 😠
ENOUGH!
I, and I alone am the RULER of The House of El!
I CRUSHED JakeTheBank leaving the Thor Corps in disarray!
I CRUSHED the hated ODG and he hasn't been seen since!
I BANISHED ABHILEGEND WITH THE SUPPORT OF 75% OF THE BOARD!
You are a lowly dog unfit for the scraps from the royal table!
Originally posted by LordofBrooklyn
ENOUGH!I, and I alone am the RULER of The House of El!
[B]I CRUSHED JakeTheBank leaving the Thor Corps in disarray!
I CRUSHED the hated ODG and he hasn't been seen since!
I BANISHED ABHILEGEND WITH THE SUPPORT OF 75% OF THE BOARD!
You are a lowly dog unfit for the scraps from the royal table! [/B]
Once you crush Quanchi you will be fit to rule the House of El. Until then, we share the burden.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Photobucket was seldom used by me before because it has the annoying tendency to linkbreak whenever any client tries to reorganize anything.Knowing that, it's probably a good idea to share the written text of the scans I gave above.
There are six of them. Note that the spacing reflects where one scan ends and another begins. Note that the material is presented in the order that best answers the question you posed, not perfect chronological story order.
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Max: I'll never let him go.
Wonder Woman: You will. Tell me how to free him from your control.
Max: Kill me.Superman: ... I saw ... He made me watch ... Doomsday ...
, because you can't keep this lasso on me forever. And the NEXT time he'll KILL Batman ... or Lois ... or you.
[i]He tore Lois apart.
Wonder Woman: It wasn't real.
Max: It was to him. And will be [b]AGAINMax: And before you think knocking me out is the answer, let me tell you, it isn't. Because eventually, I'll wake up, if only for a moment. And when I do, Superman will dance for me again. It's taken years for me to achieve this, to thread his mind with the right visions of horror and paranoia.
As long as I live, Superman's mind is mine to control.Wonder Woman: Free him! Do it now!
Max: Why? I have ABSOLUTE control of Superman. That's something even Lex hasn't been able to manage, and he's been trying for far longer than I have.Max: You think I've lied to you, but I haven't. I can't.*
He's mine.Max: As long as I LIVE, Superman's mind is mine to control.
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[/i]*Note that Diana's magic lasso, which compels people to tell the truth, is wrapped around Max as he says this. [/B]
Originally posted by carver9
She had Superman dead to rights at the end of the fight. She could have done whatever she wanted to him. His throat was sliced.
He didn't even stopped speaking and was manhandling her just a few seconds later. Just seconds after that wound, he was completely fine. So, no she never had him dead to right. Reading comics helps. In fact, she outright says that the next time he would kill her.
Originally posted by abhilegend
😂That's why he was lunging at her while she was snapping his neck?
He didn't even stopped speaking and was manhandling her just a few seconds later. Just seconds after that wound, he was completely fine. So, no she never had him dead to right. Reading comics helps. In fact, she outright says that the next time he would kill her.
Are you ****ing stupid or are you just incapable of letting anyone beat Kal in a fight?
When she had the lasso around Max, Kal was freed from the mind rapped, Max went into his whole dialogue of never letting Kal go. Kal knew what Diana was about to do, that's why he tried to interfered?
For all his ****ing speed, why wasn't he fast enough to stop Diana then?
You ****ing makes it hard for anyone to properly defends Superman in this board when you outright lie and uses scans out of context.
I guess you also forgot to mention when Diana even admitted she was holding back.
And as much as I like superman, the man is a ****ing hypocrite. It's okay for him to kill, but when someone else does it, he ****ing judge them as if he had the right too.
Originally posted by SquallX
Are you ****ing stupid or are you just incapable of letting anyone beat Kal in a fight?When she had the lasso around Max, Kal was freed from the mind rapped, Max went into his whole dialogue of never letting Kal go. Kal knew what Diana was about to do, that's why he tried to interfered?
For all his ****ing speed, why wasn't he fast enough to stop Diana then?
You ****ing makes it hard for anyone to properly defends Superman in this board when you outright lie and uses scans out of context.
I guess you also forgot to mention when Diana even admitted she was holding back.
And as much as I like superman, the man is a ****ing hypocrite. It's okay for him to kill, but when someone else does it, he ****ing judge them as if he had the right too.
How abouy you stop acquiring Tourette's Syndrome every time the thought of wack ass Wonderwoman losing enters your fragile psyche? I can't stand Superman, but even I can admit he is a FAR superior character.
Originally posted by Blue Area Vet
How abouy you stop acquiring Tourette's Syndrome every time the thought of wack ass Wonderwoman losing enters your fragile psyche? I can't stand Superman, but even I can admit he is a FAR superior character.
****ing idiot, did I once ever said Diana wins this fight? I argue against the stupid shits he said and using scans out of context.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Your reasoning is too short term.The problem at the point where Diana snapped Max's neck was not the immediate threat Superman posed.
The problem was that Max could reassert control at ANY time in the future, under any circumstances.
This is made fairly explicit in the story, or at least in Wonder Woman v2. #219, where this fight took place.Click the following link and re-read what you seem to have missed, please:
http://s228.photobucket.com/user/bluewaterrider/library/kmc/why%20max%20got%20nixed?sort=9&page=1
It being the only way to end his control over Superman only explains why she KILLED him. Not why she went after him in the first place. He KTFOed her with a single punch. She couldn't KO him with a serious sneak attack. Not just a sucker punch, she bashed his ears, a rather vulnerable area(Batman, I repeat, BATMAN, I repeat again, BATMAN , has hurt her with this tactic), with her BRACELETS, kicked him in a nerve cluster(or maybe the knee, hard to tell with the close-up), then followed it up by slamming his head to the ground. He gets back up, avoids the lasso, and snaps her wrist by grabbing and squeezing. He can easily damage her, she can't hurt him nearly as easily. She can't KO or incapacitate him, she can't restrain him. What other choice does she have? Break Max's control to end the fight.
Originally posted by carver9
She had Superman dead to rights at the end of the fight. She could have done whatever she wanted to him. His throat was sliced.
He was in shock because he had just been snapped out of an illusion. As Abhi showed, he was still able to fight, he just hadn't mentally and emotionally recovered yet. He kept fighting after Kryptonite Man amped Batman sliced his throat. And that's without even taking into consideration that if he were in his right mind, he could dodge or deflect the tiara anyways. In a normal scenario, these outweigh any argument you could make from the end of the fight.
Originally posted by carver9
Also, why wouldn't she kill Max Lord when he could get possession of Superman at any time and have him repeat everything be did while under Max control? She killed Max to protect not only Superman but the rest of the JLA (remember, he almost killed Batman).
Like I said to Blue, that only works for why she killed Max. Doesn't give a justification for why she went after Max in the first place.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
There's a fairly big discussion to be had on this.For starters, why you think comic writers are going to accurately reflect what happens in true martial arts engagements and/or to what degree.
Part of the reason I posted that Rucka "Sacrifice" interview, incidentally, was so that people could see Rucka was getting inspiration from other comic writers when considering how to script the fight (Rucka specifically names O'Neil and one other, IIRC), and almost certainly not from videos on Krav Maga from YouTube, which was not much like the worldwide phenomenon it is now back in 2005.Regarding the Batman blow, there was no effort on my part to make you look ridiculous. SuperBats/Wondy was not a one-on-one engagement. Bats was being dogpiled. Gently, perhaps, for even he acknowledged the group was trying not to hurt him, but dogpiled nonetheless. There was no real time for him to treat Diana to the kind of lesson exchange he had with say, Karate Kid
(part of Batman's Legion adventure over in Brave and the Bold) so that we could marvel at his technique. I genuinely do wonder what in the world you expected to see above and beyond what we actually get.You mention Primaid. I'm really not sure why.
Superman catches her by surprise and drops her momentarily, true, but Primaid is up again on the very next page. Contrast that to SuperBats' punch to Diana.
She doesn't appear, as you mentioned yourself, for the remainder of the fight.
Primaid probably wouldn't have been knocked out of a boxing ring; Diana is sent from the Moon all the way down to the surface of the Earth.
SuperBats punch is more effective in taking the opponent out, for a longer period of time, and sending them a much, much further distance. What there contradicts the idea that Batman is more effective than Superman as a striker?It's also not true that Wonder Woman proved unable to knockout Primaid.
You can argue she made use of her environment to do so, of course, but that was standard fare in this story. In fact, Primaid versus Wonder Woman bookends Superman using the White Martians vulnerability to heat to bring Protex down in roughly the same time frame.At any rate, so that you and others can see the knockouts for your selves:
(Sources: JLA v1 #s 2 and 4, New World Order)
It doesn't matter what argument you use to dismiss my choke defense example, that technique allows you to break the hold of a stronger attacker. So, her being unable to break his grip shows MUCH superior strength, not just a little stronger. You trying to argue the writer being unaware would be like saying, "Well this writer probably doesn't know anything about fighting or technique, so a kick is no more forceful than a punch or a slap in this book, so Wonder Woman sent Superman flying far further with her kick than Superman sent her flying with her kick. Wonder Woman is stronger."
I don't feel like you made or even tried to make me feel ridiculous. To be honest, I think you're making yourself look ridiculous. But maybe the case is because I know more about fighting and technique than you. Also, the situation doesn't change the fact that Batman didn't really show technique. In fact, you highlighting that he was dogpiled would reduce his ability to use actual technique, much like in MMA how you'll see fighters facing superior strikers, particularly wrestlers, use the strategy to get their opponent against the cage to neutralize them.
I mentioned Primaid because Superman used a similar blow, as I'm reasonably sure I pointed-out in my initial comment AND a follow-up post. Anyways the only legit argument you could make is SuperBat caught Wonder Woman by surprise. Primaid had her team mates there. And she got-up off-panel. There's nothing to think she wasn't, ya know, revived by A-Mortal while Protex was attacking Superman? Considering how many times you use boxing analogies, I'd think you at least used to watch it. If so, you SHOULD know that unless a fighter is seriously hurt, they're usually up fairly shortly after being revived. But on the distance and what contradicts the idea that Batman is a more effective striker(I'll assume you mean comparing the similar blows instead of in general)? Superman's had a couple power-ups since Morrison's NEW WORLD ORDER arc to relaunch the JLA by the time of the SuperBat story. Of course SuperBat is going to hit harder than the Superman of 1997, even with equal technique. Hell, within reason, even if Superman has the superior technique.
Arguing Wonder Woman restraining Primaid until she passed-out in space is a pretty weak, and lame, argument to say she was capable of knocking-out Primaid. And arguing Protex? Ever think, Protext was more powerful than Primaid? Superman's certainly superior to other Kryptonians.
Originally posted by SquallX
Are you ****ing stupid or are you just incapable of letting anyone beat Kal in a fight?When she had the lasso around Max, Kal was freed from the mind rapped, Max went into his whole dialogue of never letting Kal go. Kal knew what Diana was about to do, that's why he tried to interfered?
For all his ****ing speed, why wasn't he fast enough to stop Diana then?
You ****ing makes it hard for anyone to properly defends Superman in this board when you outright lie and uses scans out of context.
I guess you also forgot to mention when Diana even admitted she was holding back.
And as much as I like superman, the man is a ****ing hypocrite. It's okay for him to kill, but when someone else does it, he ****ing judge them as if he had the right too.
And Superman having just gotten out of thinking Doomsday had killed Lois and finding-out it was all an illusion had nothing to do with him not being able to stop Wonder Woman from killing Max, right?
And yeah, arguing Superman's reactions in that moment is a completely valid and accurate way to call him a hypocrite. Not incorrect AT ALL .
Originally posted by LordofBrooklyn
ENOUGH!I, and I alone am the RULER of The House of El!
[B]I CRUSHED JakeTheBank leaving the Thor Corps in disarray!
I CRUSHED the hated ODG and he hasn't been seen since!
I BANISHED ABHILEGEND WITH THE SUPPORT OF 75% OF THE BOARD!
You are a lowly dog unfit for the scraps from the royal table! [/B]
Court jesters are supposed to make valid criticisms, but do it in a way that's funny, kinda like a roast, to simultaneously entertain the King and teach him of the problems with him in his Kingdom. Not make rants about his delusions of ruling like you are. Shut-up and do a funny dance for me.
Originally posted by Delta1938
It being the only way to end his control over Superman only explains why she KILLED him. Not why she went after him in the first place.
Why Diana killed Max was the only question Pr presented then, though.
Why she went after Max in the first place was actually covered in the previous chapter of Sacrifice.
The plan was always "Get Max, for only Max can give a permanent solution to this".
I can show you that if you like.
Originally posted by Delta1938
He KTFOed her with a single punch.
Indeed.
He hit Diana rushing in, face unguarded, not expecting the retaliation with what she was holding, right on the chin, with a 180 degree haymaker, surrounded by a sun so near it envelops nearly the entirety of some of the panels they're in, and powerful enough to send her several million miles away.
Given the above and how well established the Kryptonian track record of "stronger sunlight stronger powers" is, likewise the lack of Kryptonian-level durability Diana suffers from, I would like to think Superman SHOULD be able to knock her out with such a punch.
Diana had no reason to lose any fight with any opponent in her series of that time if something like THAT couldn't do the trick.
Originally posted by Delta1938
She couldn't KO him with a serious sneak attack. Not just a sucker punch, she bashed his ears, a rather vulnerable area
Leastways, she didn't.
That was not a Superman at conventional physical levels of durability, however. Even Pr admits as much.
Originally posted by Delta1938
(Batman, I repeat, BATMAN, I repeat again, [B]BATMAN , has hurt her with this tactic)
[/B]
Batman knocked out one of the plant god empowered Cheetahs otherwise shown trashing Superman several pages back. With a single punch.
Batman has also drawn blood from Darkseid with a kick, if memory serves.
Batman isn't the best metric for trying to denigrate the physical prowess of a character.
Originally posted by Delta1938
He can easily damage her, she can't hurt him nearly as easily. She can't KO or incapacitate him, she can't restrain him. What other choice does she have?
Her other choice was to kill Superman.
Which she did not want to do.
Hence she went after Max.
So she wouldn't have to kill Superman.
Originally posted by Branlor Swift
Lol at yappy crushing ODG.Also I'd probably put Rao as the highest up in your "corps". He's the least crazy while maintaining a solid Superman defensive stance. The closest comparison with him would be to Rageofgaylympus. At least that's how I see it as an observer.
I agree with this 199 thousand %. He is the most stable out of the Superman group.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Why Diana killed Max was the only question Pr presented then, though.
Fair enough if you were more specifically replying to Pr, but it doesn't invalidate my point.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Why she went after Max in the first place was actually covered in the previous chapter of Sacrifice.
The plan was always "Get Max, for only Max can give a permanent solution to this".
I can show you that if you like.
I've read the fight. Your point would be valid if she didn't show incapable of knocking out or incapacitating Superman, and he avoided her lasso. In fact, her poor performance(in context) combined with all her narration of "he is SO strong," "he has so MANY abilities," ect, pretty much show how hopeless it was for her to win even with his handicapped state. The very interview you tried to one-up me with backs that she survived because she could think rationally and clearly and he did not.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Indeed.He hit Diana rushing in, face unguarded, not expecting the retaliation with what she was holding, right on the chin, with a [b]180 degree
haymaker, surrounded by a sun so near it envelops nearly the entirety of some of the panels they're in, and powerful enough to send her several million miles away.
Given the above and how well established the Kryptonian track record of "stronger sunlight stronger powers" is, likewise the lack of Kryptonian-level durability Diana suffers from, I would like to think Superman SHOULD be able to knock her out with such a punch.
Diana had no reason to lose any fight with any opponent in her series of that time if something like THAT couldn't do the trick.[/B]
I find it amusing with all the complaining about me using "real world fighting facts" you do then you use stuff when it suits you. I'd agree that her rushing in would be a factor, to a point. A pretty small one at this level, unless you can prove she was going at high speeds. But, "face unguarded?" REALLY? And her not expecting it? You're making excuses. Him throwing a haymaker is the only relevant point here.
And again on the Sun. You do realize that the scene you're referring to, actually supports they weren't as near it as others hope? If Superman and Wonder Woman were so close to the Sun in that that first panel where we see the Sun, they should be tiny dots considering the size of the Sun. And the scene where he punches her. Wonder Woman has the Sun at her back, then when she's punched, suddenly the Sun is behind Superman? Did they magically swap places? Probably not. Maybe, just maybe, they were actually fairly far from the Sun, but the artist did his best job to not make the scene boring and, ya know, the Sun is ****in' HUGE. Over 99% of the mass of our Solar System. So they could be pretty far but it still seem close. So, we have that Wonder Woman looks like the Sun is behind her when she's about to be punched, then unless they magically swapped places, it's behind Superman when he connects, indicating that they weren't that close to it. Wonder Woman nor Max mention once about Superman being more powerful than normal or anything else that would indicate it, something you would think the writer would convey if it was that important. The lead box doesn't melt when it should have(at the least, most likely vaporized) at the temperatures it was exposed to. And it appears the writer confirms the script had them never get past Venus. All these taken together? Yeah, I'm thinking he wasn't amped. But you keep hope up.
And Wonder Woman had no other reason to look so bad in her own series? Superman practically two or three shot Etirgan in his own series, caught his punch, and generally made him look weak. And I believe that series had Etirgan with a stalemate or two against Lobo, and I know that same series had him overpower Wonder Woman, so it's not like he was some Mid-Tier. It's not impossible for a character to look bad in their own series. Maybe, just maybe, Superman really is that much above her and being enraged he was showing it? It's not like he doesn't have the comparative showings to back it.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Leastways, she didn't.That was not a Superman at conventional physical levels of durability, however. Even Pr admits as much.
So because Pr said he was operating on levels we don't normally see him at somehow proves he was more durable than normal? Do you want to compare him facing opponents stronger than Wonder Woman and other feats of durability? No, him being enraged and fighting harder than normal doesn't prove he was more durable than normal.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Batman knocked out one of the plant god empowered Cheetahs otherwise shown trashing Superman several pages back. With a single punch.Batman has also drawn blood from Darkseid with a kick, if memory serves.
Batman isn't the best metric for trying to denigrate the physical prowess of a character.
Batman knocked-out one of the Cheetahs? Where? I looked several times trying to find it in the issue you seem to be referring to, but the only time I saw Batman at all was when he was turned into a snake-like Beastimorph so he couldn't use his gadgets(at least that was actually mentioned in narration). I also find it funny you don't specify which Cheetah, because it simply seemed like the male Cheetah was more powerful than the traditional female one, until she got a different power source(or whatever exactly happened; she looked different). I even recall the traditional female Cheetah having a tough time against Catwoman, so I don't know how good an argument there is there. Also worth mentioning, apparently the author had a shitload of context for the male Cheetah beating Superman. Would make sense considering how he beat Superman then got owned by J'onn. And I know your opinion on Martian Manhunter's strength compared to Superman's, which requires a double standard for you to argue, but you don't want to go there and argue Superman's strength versus Martian Manhunter's.
Anyways, yeah, Batman did draw blood from Darkseid with a kick. May or may not have been amped, he had Bekka's tech when he attacked. Would make sense since he couldn't do a damned thing against Superman previously in the storyline.
But I think you're right Batman isn't the best metric. Not because of the examples you gave, but the examples you didn't. Batman also hurt and drew blood from an apparently amped(from demonic mutation) Wonder Woman, and in BATMAN CONFIDENTIAL, one shot her(apparently) with a kick to the stomach. I'd say Batman isn't the best metric, because he's made Wonder Woman look bad multiple times.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Her other choice was to kill Superman.
Which she did not want to do.
Hence she went after Max.So she wouldn't have to kill Superman.
And yet she probably wouldn't have been able to pull that off without getting Max lassoed. He avoided the lasso, Max very well could've had Superman dodge or use his breath to deflect the tiara, or just get in close and grapple so she couldn't even use it. Or blind her with heat vision. But really, your argument helps me and hurts you. You're saying lethal force was the only thing left, because she couldn't incapacitate or restrain/contain him.
Originally posted by carver9
I agree with this 199 thousand %. He is the most stable out of the Superman group.
You are to Hulk the Bizarro version of your opinion on Rao.
Originally posted by Delta1938
Fair enough if you were more specifically replying to Pr, but it doesn't invalidate my point.
Click on the link that follows this paragraph.
The plan was always to get Max to release Superman from Max's control. Excerpted from Chapter 3 of Rucka's 4 Chapter "Sacrifice" storyline, Adventures of Superman #642.
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=14830146
Originally posted by Delta1938
Your point would be valid if she didn't show incapable of knocking out or incapacitating Superman, and he avoided her lasso.
Problem is, Diana DID incapacitate Superman, and before Max voluntarily released Superman. She did so with the tiara throw that ended the fight.
Note that the throw of such an object, comparatively, takes far less time than it does to get a piece of rope around the same target.
Originally posted by Delta1938
The very interview you tried to one-up me with backs that she survived because she could think rationally and clearly and he did not.
You seem to have an incredible amount of misunderstanding about how I view Diana and Superman. And I really don't understand why, because it's not that hard to get.
Perhaps the following parallel can make it clearer.
Please actually take the time to click on the following and scroll through the fight Hulk has here with Juggernaut (note: you need to do so by pressing "left"😉.
http://s388.photobucket.com/user/OneDumbG0/media/Hulk%20Fights%20F-M/HulkvsJuggernaut04402.jpg.html
Now.
Should be obvious where I'm going with this.
In this illustration:
Hulk=Diana
Cain=Clark
Red Skull = Max Lord
Question and answer time:
Who is actually stronger under normal conditions, Hulk or Juggernaut?
Who is more invulnerable?
Who is generally more skilled?
Who has to fight smart in order to pull out a victory?
Who can, and does, fight almost without regard or care to anything beside their opponent?
Who almost gets choked out?
Who has to be concerned about environmental dangers?
Who is at greater risk of injury?
Who is the key to actually ending the conflict?
Now, to get a near perfect parallel to Sacrifice?
Make the following changes:
1. Have the pool they fight in be, say, the "Magic Spring of Cytorrak ... anyone already possessing the power of Cytorrak gets an increase to their might"
2. Give Hulk a lethal psychic sword.
3. Have Hulk gain the upperhand by using the flat of the psychic sword's blade to drop Juggy to his knees and give a threat to make Red Skull pay in full if Hulk is forced to kill Juggy with the psychic sword.
Originally posted by Nod
WW hater. 9/10 WW for sure.
LMFAO. What are you smokin, dude? Sorry, but WW is not in Superman's league. She has even admitted to him that she can't beat him . That was after she took out rest of League in "A League of One".It amazes me how many people on this board have no idea what Superman is capable of. Diana is very good don't get me wrong but Superman is just on a higher level and this has been shown on more than one occasion. Check out their brief fight in "Superman for Tomorrow" graphic novel. He was casually backhanding her around and he really wasn't even trying. He even turned his back on her after she told him she would stop him. WW is no match for him. He is far stronger, faster, and much more durable and has many more powers. Only advantages she has over him is fighting skill, the lasso, and her tiara. Skill and the lasso won't help her much against someone who is immensely more powerful. He is too fast for her to have any hope of getting the lasso around him. Same goes for her hitting him with her tiara. He can easily dodge it too as long as he's not hallucinating like he was in that fight against her when he was mind-controlled by Max Lord.
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
I can .Guess you're not half the fan I thought you were....
I'm one of the biggest Superman fans in the world and I can say with confidence that Clark cannot snap CM or Orion's wrist like he did WW's. CM and Orion are both Superman-level characters. Diana is most certainly NOT.
