Originally posted by HueyFreeman
I disagree. To me the Buu saga felt even more heavily contrived than the others arcs.
Buu, on the other hand, was someone who made the highest-level gods afraid so he actually seemed to be something on another level above Frieza as far as credible threats go, despite his ridiculously shitty saga.
Originally posted by HueyFreeman
You find in hard to beleive a scientist could create a killing machine in a society where whole houses pop out of little capsules?
Originally posted by HueyFreeman
I understand what you mean about Cells power in comparison but only to a certain extent. Vegeta was virtually useless unless cell stayed and let him power up for 15 minutes. Trunks was too slow. The only person that endangered cell was goku (besides gohan) and he tends to play it straight when it comes to one on ones.
Originally posted by HueyFreeman
The cell/andoids saga had a continuation of the dragonball history as well as letting Vegeta develop more into an antihero/warrior than a villian. He was spineless in the Frieza saga but seemed to develop more during this one. Plus that final scene of everyone vs Cell vs Gohan was epic.
The Cell saga wasn't terrible, but it definitely wasn't a fluid progression in the storyline from the Frieza arc.
Originally posted by Accel
17 and 18 were technically cyborgs, not androids. They were both originally humans until Gero did whatever he did to them.
Technically Cell is also not an android since he is made of bio substance and in his first two forms does not resemble a humanoid but there you go, as for Vegeta I liked the way he eventually acknowledged how Goku was stronger there rivalry and the way he progressed from villain up to Goku's friend was great.
Originally posted by Accel
And it was. The Buu arc as a whole was just plain stupid, but the concept of the villain Buu made more sense to me than the concept of the villain Cell. When Goku defeated King Piccolo, the heroes were supposed to be beyond facing the strongest Earth-bound threats and moving on to facing the strongest intergalactic threats like the Saiyans, the Ginyu Force, and Frieza. When Cell and the Androids came along, created by some previously no-name scientist, the good guys basically went from facing a galactic emperor and universal terror and back to facing even more Earth-born enemies.
Cell may have been higher on the power scale, but he just felt like step back as far as villain status went.Buu, on the other hand, was someone who made the highest-level gods afraid so he actually seemed to be something on another level above Frieza as far as credible threats go, despite his ridiculously shitty saga.
Killing machines as strong as a SSJ? Yes. Android 8 was barely stronger than kid Goku, so the idea that the androids and cyborgs would be able to fight Super-Saiyans just eight models later is a pretty big leap and kind of a stretch.
Vegita and Trunks pretty much underwent the exact same kind of training that Goku did, so I sincerely doubt he was that far ahead of them. When Goku alone was enough to wear Cell down significantly and yet couldn’t quite go all the way, Trunks should have been able to just jump in by that point and finish him off.
I’m all for character development and I liked Vegita, but let’s face it, every thing after the Frieza saga was phoned in. The series became basically became the “The Amazing Saiyans Show,†Bulma getting together with Vegita made no sense whatsoever, the SSJ transformation went from being something of legendary status to being something that just any body with Saiyan blood could perform, death meant almost nothing any more (since they got around the whole "Shenron can't revive the same dead person more than once" scenario), etc.
The Cell saga wasn't terrible, but it definitely wasn't a fluid progression in the storyline from the Frieza arc.
Cell seemed to have been rushed as if they never had to the time to fully flesh out his details, if you see that is one thing on my list, I understand that Cell is programmed to destroy yet you never get any personality from the villain all that he does is say I want to be perfect, yet you never get a real reason why, only that Dr. Gero said that's my goal considering he has emotions to I would have expected more development on his part and why he strives to create a tournament.
As for androids I doubt any of them could have handled over a SSJ only because 17 and 18 took them by surprise then ran off do they really count as beating them.
Now finally Majin Buu, so many transformations and a plot that was never really fleshed out still, as in terms of power and wild destruction Kid Buu was the greatest threat of all, Super Buu was also a serious problem and I really enjoyed the Kid Buu and Super Buu arcs, the Babidi arc seemed like filler and just a way to establish Buu and then stall his release, once Super Buu started absorbing people I thought to my self this has been done before, it seems that DBZ all copy of another DBZ for example Janemba is like Kid Buu and Cell is just like Frieza only with a much larger ego.
Cell and Buu not coming across as completely fleshed out villains was mainly due to the fact that Toriyama didn't plan on making them until he had to extend the series past the Frieza saga. That's why the series became much more about power levels and energy beams than it was previously.
Every thing after the Frieza saga, plus the dozen movies and Gt was just Toryiyama's company's way of milking the Dragonball franchise for all it was worth.
Originally posted by Accel
Cell and Buu not coming across as completely fleshed out villains was mainly due to the fact that Toriyama didn't plan on making them until he had to extend the series past the Frieza saga. That's why the series became much more about power levels and energy beams than it was previously.Every thing after the Frieza saga, plus the dozen movies and Gt was just Toryiyama's company's way of milking the Dragonball franchise for all it was worth.
That is true still they were top villains I really liked the Cell and Buu arcs, more then Frieza's.
Originally posted by Ridley_Prime
Why is that? If he had stayed a villain after being brought back to life (after getting killed by Frieza), he would've just gotten annihilated by Goku & the Z fighters again.
Originally posted by AccelYes and no with the power difference between the warriors. Both sequences of Vegeta fighting cell he lays him out with 3 punches. There was a huge difference in power between Goku and Vegeta though I could never understand why. Trunks was a difference story though, he had the strength. They tried to clean that little inconsistancy up with that whole "honor speech" Vegeta kept giving trunks about going one on one. Not to mension trunks is purposely the first person Cell kills when he comes back.
And it was. The Buu arc as a whole was just plain stupid, but the concept of the villain Buu made more sense to me than the concept of the villain Cell. When Goku defeated King Piccolo, the heroes were supposed to be beyond facing the strongest Earth-bound threats and moving on to facing the strongest intergalactic threats like the Saiyans, the Ginyu Force, and Frieza. When Cell and the Androids came along, created by some previously no-name scientist, the good guys basically went from facing a galactic emperor and universal terror and back to facing even more Earth-born enemies.
Cell may have been higher on the power scale, but he just felt like step back as far as villain status went.Buu, on the other hand, was someone who made the highest-level gods afraid so he actually seemed to be something on another level above Frieza as far as credible threats go, despite his ridiculously shitty saga.
Killing machines as strong as a SSJ? Yes. Android 8 was barely stronger than kid Goku, so the idea that the androids and cyborgs would be able to fight Super-Saiyans just eight models later is a pretty big leap and kind of a stretch.
Vegita and Trunks pretty much underwent the exact same kind of training that Goku did, so I sincerely doubt he was that far ahead of them. When Goku alone was enough to wear Cell down significantly and yet couldn’t quite go all the way, Trunks should have been able to just jump in by that point and finish him off.
I’m all for character development and I liked Vegita, but let’s face it, every thing after the Frieza saga was phoned in. The series became basically became the “The Amazing Saiyans Show,” Bulma getting together with Vegita made no sense whatsoever, the SSJ transformation went from being something of legendary status to being something that just any body with Saiyan blood could perform, death meant almost nothing any more (since they got around the whole "Shenron can't revive the same dead person more than once" scenario), etc.
The Cell saga wasn't terrible, but it definitely wasn't a fluid progression in the storyline from the Frieza arc.
Originally posted by HueyFreeman
Yes and no with the power difference between the warriors. Both sequences of Vegeta fighting cell he lays him out with 3 punches. There was a huge difference in power between Goku and Vegeta though I could never understand why. Trunks was a difference story though, he had the strength. They tried to clean that little inconsistancy up with that whole "honor speech" Vegeta kept giving trunks about going one on one. Not to mension trunks is purposely the first person Cell kills when he comes back.
He should have taken Gohan out instead.
Originally posted by HueyFreeman
Yes and no with the power difference between the warriors. Both sequences of Vegeta fighting cell he lays him out with 3 punches. There was a huge difference in power between Goku and Vegeta though I could never understand why. Trunks was a difference story though, he had the strength.
Originally posted by HueyFreeman
They tried to clean that little inconsistancy up with that whole "honor speech" Vegeta kept giving trunks about going one on one. Not to mension trunks is purposely the first person Cell kills when he comes back.
Against Cell though, not only did Goku not think he could win, but he had at least two other fighters who could help gang up on Cell, yet they STILL risk every thing by only fighting Cell one-on-one using that whole "honor" thing as an excuse.
He even does the same thing later on when taking turns fighting Kid Buu one-on-one with Vegita instead of teaming up or using fusion. Just stupid.
Originally posted by Combat_Guru
Made it so Goku was the only Super Saiyan.That would prove the legend that a Super Saiyan only comes once in a thousand years, which adds to the badassness of a Super Saiyan, 😉
Originally posted by Accel
Gohan's hidden power was originally supposed to be the result of him being half saiyan and half human (apparently mixing saiyan and human blood results in a powerful hybrid), but I guess that had to be tossed out when Trunks came along.
Both him and Trunks never had tails, yet Gohan did. 😬
Originally posted by AccelThey still had different methods of training though. Vegetas whole training idea was to transform into the next Super Saiyan form so it revolved around beefing his body up for it. Gokus training revolved around both increasing his power and mastering the super saiyan one form so it no longer taxed his body to transform. That and the fact that Gokus whole career as a fighter was spent taking huge leaps in power between sagas even though he was a low class warrior. I always felt that Vegeta's power from the saiyan saga was more of a birth given power and not earned like Goku's was. This may be why he lagged behind since he didn't have the experience and knowledge to find knew ways of increasing his power. He had been relying his strength on the whole (a saiyans peak increases after serious injuries). At least thats how I see it.
That's one of the problems of that arc though. Both Vegita and Trunks underwent the exact same kind of training that Goku went through twice over, and yet Goku was still somehow more powerful than them. But the idea that he was that much stronger without undergoing any other special training is just preposterous.
Originally posted by HueyFreeman
I always felt that Vegeta's power from the saiyan saga was more of a birth given power and not earned like Goku's was. This may be why he lagged behind since he didn't have the experience and knowledge to find knew ways of increasing his power. He had been relying his strength on the whole (a saiyans peak increases after serious injuries). At least thats how I see it.
Originally posted by King KandyI didn't really see it that way. He had the whole saiyan attitude of ravaging planets that were weaker than him. If he screwed it up he just turned ape to win. He was already born with one of the highest power levels on vegeta. Goku spent his whole life fighting people who gave him a challenge since he was a low level soldier while Vegeta spent it massacring groups who he was already stronger than. Think about it, Radditz was ravaging planets also and he was a weakling so I doubt Vegeta came across anyone worth a dust of a challenge. Killing the weak is not the same as constantly putting your fighting limits to the test and pushing beyond.
Oy, I felt the exact opposite. Vegeta spent his whole life as a warrior who ravaged planets. Goku fought and trained alot too, but he had a social life at least. Vegeta worked so much harder it didn't seem fair to me that Goku was stronger.