Originally posted by King KandyI think it's because it was strictly a Gokou PIS thing. Gokou's strength comes from his body and mind being one type of thing.
Ginyu shouldn't have been a dumbass and realized he can't get full potential out of a body he just possessed. I mean, he has used that technique before, right? Why the hell didn't he know he'd have trouble with it?
Originally posted by King Kandy
I'm going to focus on the sagas up to Frieza, because the other ones or just beyond help.First off I would have made Radditz stick around. I mean i'm really amazed that Goku's brother got dispatched so quick and with so little role in the plot. And I would have made the saiyans have way more camaraderie. I mean, their biased against by Frieza and treated like slaves, i'd hope they'd at least have some commitment to staying unified and keeping the species alive. That's why I'd make it so Nappa and Vegeta actually got really pissed that Radditz died.
I like this idea, a lot, actually. It makes perfect sense. The Saiyans are a warrior race where fighting ability is honored and respected. It only makes sense that if there were only a few left and the Saiyans were the strongest, second only to Frieza and his upper lieutenants, that they'd be a very close tight group.
Originally posted by King Kandy
Likewise, i'd make it so the power of the three were way closer together. I just can't believe that Radditz was so far below Nappa, and Nappa equally far below Vegeta. What was the point of even having Radditz around, then? The Saibamen were just stupid and I'd get rid of them. Maybe give them some other low-class survivors as soldiers?
No, that makes perfect sense. It couldn't have been designed better.
The Saiyan race is a caste system based on power levels at birth.
Goku and Radditz were born to low-level warriors (initially, they were low-level. Bardock got stronger by beating the odds on his suicide missions, over and over.) They were at the bottom of the barrel. Radditz was actually stronger than he should have been due to them getting so many tough missions.
Nappa was the general of the Saiyan military: he should be second in power ONLY to the royal family: the Vegetas. Now, you can definitely make a case for Vegeta being too far beyond Nappa beause Nappa should have been second only to royalty, but who's to say what the gap should be? It makes sense that the royal family, in a caste system that "casted" by family power-levels and at birth power-levels, would have the royal ruling family at much stronger levels than even the next highest caste. They have to rule and ruling is determined, quite literally, by strength.
So, I agree with how it was done, in the manga. That's really how it should have been if we stick the original idea of the social and political systems in the warrior race.
Originally posted by King Kandy
I would have not had all the aliens be so stupid about power levels. I mean it took Captain Ginyu to realize "hey, these guys can change their power levels at will"! It's his job to know stuff like that... why didn't the rest of the Ginyu force know as well? I mean, they're supposed to be combat experts not complete morons, even if they are comic relief.
Indeed. Vegeta AND Nappa both changed their power levels. Frieza ran around in a very "condensed" power level form. Obviously, everyone knew that power-levels greatly fluctuated. It was stupid that it was written that way.
Originally posted by King Kandy
I would have made the Ginyu force way more of a threat even once Goku appeared. As you may have noticed, I don't like it when one character is really far above the others. Here, Burter and Jeice would have a been a real challenge to Goku and Ginyu would have been able to at least match him without trickery.
No. That was one of the most awesome things about Goku. It was thoroughly entertaining that Goku showed up, after the most intense training ever, being far above everyone elsee except Frieza. That was quite enjoyable watching him WTF pwn the Ginyu people.
Originally posted by King Kandy
Ginyu shouldn't have been a dumbass and realized he can't get full potential out of a body he just possessed. I mean, he has used that technique before, right? Why the hell didn't he know he'd have trouble with it?
There was no way to know that. In fact, it was almost directly stated, and was certainly implied, that he didn't have problems with other bodies. It would seem that Goku's body was a strange exception: possibly because he was a martial arts master, at that point.
Originally posted by King Kandy
The confrontation with Frieza, I thought it went perfectly well though I might have either given his third form more screen time (it was barely around compared to the others) or just skip it completely and have him use his final form to beat Piccolo.
Hmmm. I also didn't like that third form. The large adult form, the straight to the angular form, yeah, that seems much better.
Originally posted by King Kandy
The fight with Goku I felt went perfectly fine and was a good ending. I might have ended it there though, with Goku genuinely dead.
Nah. I didn't want Goku to die. However, I liked that, in the anime, Vegeta got to see Goku in SSJ form before they left. It's just wrong that Vegeta wouldn't have gotten to see SSJ Goku before he died. It would be cruel and wrong for that to happen to Vegeta.
And, KK, don't take me going down your ideas as offensive. I think your ideas are awesome and I love talking about these things.
Originally posted by Kento
I think it's because it was strictly a Gokou PIS thing. Gokou's strength comes from his body and mind being one type of thing.
Yeah, that's kind of where I was going with that. Goku was a martial arts master at that point: using his absurd skill to get the most out of his body. The body is stronger with the mind of the master...I guess.
Originally posted by No End N Site
Hmmmm...maybe they can. Vegeta went SS out in space too, didn't he?
Originally posted by No End N Site
Okay, so it was used again as a plot device to make the bad guy stronger so that the final battle can seem epic (which it was, IMO). I just wish it was incorporated more in the story cuz it's a cool ability that the creators shoulda built on. What about when, Trunks lost to Cell, or Vegeta, or Goku? How about when Goten lost to Trunks or when Gotenks 1st lost to Buu? Where was it then?
Originally posted by King Kandy
I'm going to focus on the sagas up to Frieza, because the other ones or just beyond help.
As for the rest, basically what dadudemon said.
Originally posted by menokokoro
i mean how much more powerful would a simple ki blast be at the end of the series? probably just as powerful or more powerful as vagetas...what was it finish buster?
Sorry for the double post; forgot to reply to these other few parts earlier.
Originally posted by menokokoro
and then there is the fact that after frieza, all the bad guys had to be killed with a single blast or they would come back, the lack of originality there really bothered me.
Originally posted by menokokoro
also, this is probably the biggest thing that bothers me, they were able to destroy planets in the sayan saga, and yet, every single fight was on earth
Originally posted by menokokoro
and yet it was not vaporized from their power ups, let alone the energy blasts they use.
Originally posted by menokokoro
they should have been fighting in space and destroying planets while fighting, it would have been way more epic, and would make a lot more sense
Originally posted by dadudemon
No, that makes perfect sense. It couldn't have been designed better.The Saiyan race is a caste system based on power levels at birth.
Goku and Radditz were born to low-level warriors (initially, they were low-level. Bardock got stronger by beating the odds on his suicide missions, over and over.) They were at the bottom of the barrel. Radditz was actually stronger than he should have been due to them getting so many tough missions.
Nappa was the general of the Saiyan military: he should be second in power ONLY to the royal family: the Vegetas. Now, you can definitely make a case for Vegeta being too far beyond Nappa beause Nappa should have been second only to royalty, but who's to say what the gap should be? It makes sense that the royal family, in a caste system that "casted" by family power-levels and at birth power-levels, would have the royal ruling family at much stronger levels than even the next highest caste. They have to rule and ruling is determined, quite literally, by strength.
So, I agree with how it was done, in the manga. That's really how it should have been if we stick the original idea of the social and political systems in the warrior race.
As an alternative, I think something that could have worked was if Radditz was closer to their level, but they still acted like he was way weaker because of their ingrained attitude about caste. Then when Goku was able to defeat them even though he was lower, Vegeta would have realized he should have known because of Radditz, but he'd never looked at him through a clear lens until his defeat by Goku, after which it was too late.
Originally posted by dadudemon
No. That was one of the most awesome things about Goku. It was thoroughly entertaining that Goku showed up, after the most intense training ever, being far above everyone elsee except Frieza. That was quite enjoyable watching him WTF pwn the Ginyu people.
Originally posted by dadudemon
There was no way to know that. In fact, it was almost directly stated, and was certainly implied, that he didn't have problems with other bodies. It would seem that Goku's body was a strange exception: possibly because he was a martial arts master, at that point.
Originally posted by dadudemon
Nah. I didn't want Goku to die. However, I liked that, in the anime, Vegeta got to see Goku in SSJ form before they left. It's just wrong that Vegeta wouldn't have gotten to see SSJ Goku before he died. It would be cruel and wrong for that to happen to Vegeta.
If the anime ended at the Frieza saga, it could have gone either way. It was mentioned that the original super saiyan self-destructed from his unrestrained power, so having that be the fate of Goku might have worked. I think the whole planet exploding spaceship getaway was really, really stupid though and they either should have killed him proper or not have the planet explode at all.
If we're going to go a saga further, then I think he should die. He overshadows the rest of the cast too much. They handled it in the android saga okay up until the time chamber, where he came out too far ahead again.
Originally posted by Ridley_Prime
Methinks you're wrong when it comes to the Android/Cell saga, though I'll agree that the Buu saga in its entirety is indeed beyond help...As for the rest, basically what dadudemon said.
To fix the android saga, it could have made sense if Goku and Vegeta both stayed dead. Then we could see how the rest of the Z-fighters would manage with their unofficial leader dead. This would work because we'd get to see both more of the under-represented z-fighters, and the androids power would be explained because they were superior to the z-fighters of the arc, but not necessarily to Frieza.
Originally posted by King Kandy
I liked the androids actually, and something interesting could have come of them.
Originally posted by King Kandy
However I didn't like cell at all. Such a contrived character.
Originally posted by King Kandy
The biggest problem is it just makes no sense at all for the androids being that powerful.
http://www.mangafox.com/manga/dragon_ball/v29/c003/7.html
http://www.mangafox.com/manga/dragon_ball/v29/c003/8.html
Originally posted by King Kandy
To fix the android saga, it could have made sense if Goku and Vegeta both stayed dead. Then we could see how the rest of the Z-fighters would manage with their unofficial leader dead. This would work because we'd get to see both more of the under-represented z-fighters, and the androids power would be explained because they were superior to the z-fighters of the arc, but not necessarily to Frieza.
But aside from that, I agree in that it would've been a bit more interesting had Goku and Vegeta stayed dead.
Originally posted by Ridley_Prime
The reason for their strength was pretty much explained here.
Originally posted by Ridley_Prime
Trunks beat Frieza and his father in a flash though, and if the Androids were not superior to Frieza, Trunks would've just as easily done the same to them, which would've made a damn short arc.But aside from that, I agree in that it would've been a bit more interesting had Goku and Vegeta stayed dead.
I dunno. I think King Cold would've made a great villain had he not been just a throwaway character and if he was more fleshed out like his son was with more screentime and stuff (same with Dabura), and perhaps a transformation or two. Definitely agree though that the whole Mecha Frieza thing shouldn't have been included at all, as it did the character no justice...
Originally posted by King Kandy
I might be able to accept that if not for the fact that Goku said that he couldn't control Ginyu's ki, so it was logical Ginyu couldn't control his. That made it seem like it was a problem to be expected. If it was ever actually stated that it was something specific to Goku's body, then I wouldn't have minded it at all. I also thought the anime handled it better by stating that Ginyu was gradually learning to draw out more and more of Goku's power, while in the anime he just looked like a fool.
But wasn't Goku close to death in Ginyu's body? On top of that, he was severely injured. Hard to control your Ki when your life energy is fading towards death, right?
And, lulz at the rest.
Originally posted by King Kandy
Eh, I disagree. It was a real "he who lives by the sword, dies by the sword" and a real tear jerker that helped redeem Vegeta. A great end to someone who by the end of the Frieza saga, while not all terrible, still was definitely not one of the heroes.
But wasn't the whole series based around the magical dragonballs? Eventually, Vegeta would have been revived. But, yeah, Vegeta's speech right before death was quite awesome.
Originally posted by King Kandy
If the anime ended at the Frieza saga, it could have gone either way. It was mentioned that the original super saiyan self-destructed from his unrestrained power, so having that be the fate of Goku might have worked. I think the whole planet exploding spaceship getaway was really, really stupid though and they either should have killed him proper or not have the planet explode at all.If we're going to go a saga further, then I think he should die. He overshadows the rest of the cast too much. They handled it in the android saga okay up until the time chamber, where he came out too far ahead again.
Yeah, we have different tastes on this. I really wanted Goku to live and for Vegeta to see a Super Saiyan. I like the idea that someone mentioned earlier of Vegeta turning Super Saiyan and defeating Frieza. That might have been me, actually. I forget. But, that sounded good. That would have been a much sweeter deal, imo. Vegeta deserved it more than anyone.
Originally posted by King Kandy
I liked the androids actually, and something interesting could have come of them. However I didn't like cell at all. Such a contrived character. The biggest problem is it just makes no sense at all for the androids being that powerful.
Why not make them that powerful? They have an "eternal" power supply. Dr. Gero was an absurdly intelligent robotics engineer. But, you're right, Dr. Gero wouldn't know that the SSJ form existed (which is like...what....50 times more powerful than regular powered up base form?)
It would have been nice for Trunks to come back in time and then seen the Z warriors handle 17 and 18 like they were mildly amusing. And THEN have Cell come by and consume the other androids. But, make it smarter than the series: make the androids power sources be the target, and not the androids.
Originally posted by King Kandy
To fix the android saga, it could have made sense if Goku and Vegeta both stayed dead. Then we could see how the rest of the Z-fighters would manage with their unofficial leader dead. This would work because we'd get to see both more of the under-represented z-fighters, and the androids power would be explained because they were superior to the z-fighters of the arc, but not necessarily to Frieza.
Oh, okay. I don't like this version as well as th original. It's still interesting. But, I like Goku the most. He's my fave. He eats absurd amounts of food, he loves to fight, and he fights for righteousness. Cool dude...n'stuff. I want him to remain as the main character. I liked the whole mystical hidden power thing about Gohan...maybe more of that, too?
Originally posted by Ridley_Primeeh, not really, but i would have ended it at the end of that fight, i think i said that anyway. so the mecho frieza would not be there lol
So wait, you think Frieza getting cut in half by his own attack and then being rebuilt with mechanical parts was original?
Originally posted by Ridley_PrimeI KNEW SOMEONE WOULD SAY THAT! lol i was being facetious, i knew that they weren't ALL on earth, but my point still stands.
I don't recall the fight with Kid Buu being on earth, since he blew it up and all. The final battle with Baby in GT wasn't on earth either, as they fought on the Tuffle planet. Need I go on?
Originally posted by Ridley_Primethey can hold their breath easily enough, i mean vageta was in space when he went super sayan.
Not really, since Saiyans cannot breathe in space like Frieza, Cell, etc. can. If they could, then that would've been another story.
Originally posted by dadudemon
But wasn't Goku close to death in Ginyu's body? On top of that, he was severely injured. Hard to control your Ki when your life energy is fading towards death, right?
And, lulz at the rest.
Originally posted by dadudemon
But wasn't the whole series based around the magical dragonballs? Eventually, Vegeta would have been revived. But, yeah, Vegeta's speech right before death was quite awesome.
Originally posted by dadudemon
Yeah, we have different tastes on this. I really wanted Goku to live and for Vegeta to see a Super Saiyan. I like the idea that someone mentioned earlier of Vegeta turning Super Saiyan and defeating Frieza. That might have been me, actually. I forget. But, that sounded good. That would have been a much sweeter deal, imo. Vegeta deserved it more than anyone.
Originally posted by dadudemon
Oh, okay. I don't like this version as well as th original. It's still interesting. But, I like Goku the most. He's my fave. He eats absurd amounts of food, he loves to fight, and he fights for righteousness. Cool dude...n'stuff. I want him to remain as the main character. I liked the whole mystical hidden power thing about Gohan...maybe more of that, too?
I would have kept Bulma and Yamcha as a couple and hook Vegeta up with someone like Launch.
Maybe I would have also kind of changed Cell a little bit too. His goal of doing nothing but destroying and killing people is just too...typical.
After he absorbed the androids, I would have him go to another planet full of evil aliens, destroy its leader, take over that planet's fighters and THEN attack Earth. Then an all-out epic war would begin, with either Goku or Gohan fighting against Cell.
Originally posted by King Kandy
Okay, let me use another way of explaining this: At the end of the saiyan sage, Vegeta and Goku had equal power (actually there's a slight edge to Vegeta since Goku had help, but we'll just say they're equal.) Then when we get to Namek, Goku is way stronger then Vegeta? Why so? Let's examine what they did in between.A. Goku ran laps and did push-ups in a spaceship.
B. Vegeta constantly fought against people stronger then him, broke new barriers of strength, almost died numerous times and came back stronger then before, and beat guys he didn't even have a chance of hurting before.
Vegeta was OBVIOUSLY working harder but somehow he comes out weaker? WTF?
A. That's the point. Goku continously did training that was more difficult than anything he had done before and while he was doing that, he experienced two-near death instances. Also, remember, he was doing this in 6 days straight.
B. Most of the the time, Vegeta fought guys weaker than he was because all he mainly wanted was the Dragonballs to get immortality. The only times he got stronger was after his first fight with Zarbon and his fight with Recoome so all of that really didn't much for him compared to what Goku had done.
Kai actually made DBZ more watchable as far as getting rid of pointless fillers and such (screw fanservice), and had better voices for some of the characters. Its biggest con though was the lack of Bruce Faulconer soundtracks, but I kinda praise them for not giving the Buu saga the Kai treatment since it was pretty much a shit arc anyway, even if you took out the worst of it like Kai did with the other sagas. Why they put shitty GT back on the air though after Kai ended with the Cell Games, is beyond me.
Yeah, I'm a big fan of Kai and find it to be far better than the original anime.
Obviously it cut's out the filler, which is great IMO, but it also drastically improves the dialogue making it closer to the anime. For example, Goku's I am a Super Sayan speech is far better in Kai than his pseudo-Jesus one in the funmation dub.
Originally posted by Astner
More information.The power level system was interesting, but an explanation of how it works would be nice.
Other data would be nice too. Strength, speed and destructive capabilities should have been established. It would've save people all around the world a lot of time.
So what would I've changed now?
First and foremost I'd add another saga centering around time travel and parallel universes. Were we'd be able to see characters like Trunks and the alternate reality bastard child of Goku and Bulma to expand on the Z Fighters roster. Because no one likes Krillin and Tien.
Secondly I'd work on the consistency in power, and use something like pocket dimensions for battles to protect the surroundings in the later arcs. I'm thinking something akin to Frieza's imprisonment ball, but dimensionally folded to encompass the size of the universe.
I'd also try to incorporate a broader range of techniques, and maybe at some point make chi and magic overlap. I mean Goku doesn't have to be able to conjure clothes like Kibito or Piccolo, but the matter manipulation Kai demonstrated could've been used creatively.
Goku gambling with the Earth and up because he wants the next generation to start taking his place. Good idea in theory, but done at the worst possible times.
-Stopping the equaled fight against Cell then healing him.
Caused the death of himself, King Kai, Bubbles and his planet. Not to mention the perma-death of 16. And if the risk of getting Gohan to SS2 didnt work everyone would have died.
-Not killing Buu when he had the chance.
Caused the death of the whole population save for a dozen, the Earth and some other planets. All for two Krillen-level children who's fusion failed until reaching SS3, which Goku did not plan for.
Now if it was Vegeta's choice...
I would have liked to see a major villain with some deph and plan, back to what Frieza was. Cell and Buu were too similar in goals and abilities. Perhaps a rival to the Saiyan race who were mostly wiped out by Frieza's army, seeking vengeance and claiming Earth for themselves. It would take away the Hax Cell and Buu had, leaving more room for actual combat. And would take away the funnel fight paths they always take: Beat henchmen > Main fighters are no-shows > Others fight Boss and lose > Main's come back and stomp/stalemate > PIS defeat.
Having more heavy hitters would create some purpose of having anyone but Goku and Gohan.