Originally posted by Galan007
Myth:
Monarch's detonation at the end of Countdown #13 destroyed the entirety of universe-51, leaving only a blank void of nothingness in its wake:
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/15996538/Countdown13p17.jpg.html
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/15996539/Countdown13p18.jpg.html
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/15996540/Countdown13p19-20.jpg.html
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/15996541/Countdown13p21.jpg.htmlIt was later revealed in Superman Beyond #1 that universe-51, while apparently lifeless, was not entirely destroyed-- the physical components of said universe still appeared to be intact, at least.
Earth-51(the planet on which Monarch detonated, mind you) was still very much intact when Superman and Ultraman dropped the Monitor ship there-- it was just devoid of life, is all:
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/15996542/Superman_Beyond_01_Page_017.jpg.htmlIf the planet on which Monarch's detonation originated was still intact, it's hard to imagine any other planets--or stars--or solar systems--or galaxies-- being destroyed by said detonation. The point of origin *should* have contained the most potent energies, after all.
Thoughts? I just stumbled on this myself.
Thought I'd clear this up, since it's apparently becoming an issue when discussing Prime.
Monarch destroyed everything in that Universe except for a sapling, and the a small patch of land.
As to why it survived, well, it's like Nix speculated, it could have been luck, his personal shields, etc.
So, why were there cities when Superman went to Earth-51 in Superman Beyond?
Because Earth-51 had been recreated, and then destroyed again.
If anyone here remembers what happened in Countdown (which should be no one), they'd remember that Karate Kid ends up spreading a virus that wipes out an entire Universe.
That Universe was the recreated Earth-51, as stated here by Solomon.
http://tinypic.com/r/2edzhid/5
The Earth-51 in Superman Beyond was the one that had been wiped out by the virus, not that which had been wiped out by Monarch's blast.
I mean, yeah, they are the same Universe, but that explains why there are buildings and stuff even though Monarch destroyed pretty much everything.
Originally posted by RorschachSo the entire Earth-51 universe and Superman Prime were recreated by the Monitors then after Monarch's explosion. Hmph, interesting.
Thought I'd clear this up, since it's apparently becoming an issue when discussing Prime.Monarch destroyed everything in that Universe except for a sapling, and the a small patch of land.
As to why it survived, well, it's like Nix speculated, it could have been luck, his personal shields, etc.
So, why were there cities when Superman went to Earth-51 in Superman Beyond?
Because Earth-51 had been recreated, and then destroyed again.
If anyone here remembers what happened in Countdown (which should be no one), they'd remember that Karate Kid ends up spreading a virus that wipes out an entire Universe.
That Universe was the recreated Earth-51, as stated here by Solomon.
http://tinypic.com/r/2edzhid/5
The Earth-51 in Superman Beyond was the one that had been wiped out by the virus, not that which had been wiped out by Monarch's blast.
I mean, yeah, they are the same Universe, but that explains why there are buildings and stuff even though Monarch destroyed pretty much everything.
^ Basically that's what he's saying. Although, without mentioning the one obvious repercussion of this series of events. Superman Prime was apparently recreated by the Monitors too along with the universe in-between Earth-51's destruction by Monarch's energies and Prime's reappearance in Final Crisis: Legion of 3 Worlds.
So I guess all those naysayers who denied Prime tanked the Monarch blast on his own had a point, after all. Surprising this never came to light until now.
Originally posted by Galan007
Just to make sure I'm understanding correctly: universe-51 was destroyed by Monarch, completely recreated by the Monitors, then all life within it was eradicated by the Morticoccus virus, and finally the universe was recreated yet AGAIN by Nix Uotan at the end of FC?The phuck..? 😕
Yes, that's pretty much the gist of it.
After Final Crisis, Earth-51 was supposed to become the "Kirby" Earth, and house Kamandi & The New Gods.
Originally posted by ODG
So the entire Earth-51 universe and Superman Prime were recreated by the Monitors then after Monarch's explosion. Hmph, interesting.
Prime was never recreated by the Monitors.
The explosion sent him hurling through the space and time (similar to how the Guardian's explosion sent him to another Universe), until the Time Trapper brought him into the future.
There was never any mention of the Monitors resurrecting Prime (and why would they?).
And if they did recreate him, why wasn't he present in the recreated Earth-51, and why was he in the remains of his black costume when Trapper brought him into the future?
There's nothing to suggest that the Monitors recreated Prime and then sent him hurling through time.
Perhaps the confusion arises from Solomon telling Prime that Earth-51 was his Universe, and that in recreating Earth-51, Prime was also recreated.
But that was Solomon lying to Prime, since Prime is from Earth-Prime, not Earth-51.
In Legion of 3 Worlds #1, The Time Trapper states that Prime is lost in time, not dead, not recently resurrected, just lost in time.
To further clarify.
When Earth-51 was recreated, it was recreated from scratch with a whole new history.
The original Earth-51 had a Jason Todd that was killed by Joker, which led to Earth-51 Batman hunting down and killing his enemies.
The recreated Earth-51 didn't even have a Jason Todd.
It also lacked characters like Donna Troy, and Ray Palmer that existed in the old Earth-51. The characters that existed in Earth-51 had new histories, and were not the same as the characters from the old Earth-51.
If Prime had been recreated, he would have been a new version of Superboy-Prime with a brand new history, and that obviously wasn't the case.
Originally posted by RorschachThese above facts, quite literally have nothing to do with the following conclusion:
To further clarify.When Earth-51 was recreated, it was recreated from scratch with a whole new history.
The original Earth-51 had a Jason Todd that was killed by Joker, which led to Earth-51 Batman hunting down and killing his enemies.
The recreated Earth-51 didn't even have a Jason Todd.
It also lacked characters like Donna Troy, and Ray Palmer that existed in the old Earth-51. The characters that existed in Earth-51 had new histories, and were not the same as the characters from the old Earth-51.
Originally posted by RorschachJason Todd being treated as an anomaly doesn't set up some existentialist false absolute about Prime.
If Prime had been recreated, he would have been a new version of Superboy-Prime with a brand new history, and that obviously wasn't the case.
Clearly, people like Lord Havok weren't recreated in the new Earth-51 universe. But Prime was. Otherwise, there would be nothing for Time Trapper to have retrieved. Because, as you are telling us, the original Earth-51 universe was entirely destroyed by Monarch's blast. Except for the plant that Nix's forcefield protected.
Originally posted by RorschachSo Prime was BFRed through time instead of surviving the actual universal destruction of Earth 51? Welp. Ok, then. Seems supported by the opening of Legion of 3 Worlds.
The explosion sent him hurling through the space and time (similar to how the Guardian's explosion sent him to another Universe), until the Time Trapper brought him into the future.In Legion of 3 Worlds #1, The Time Trapper states that Prime is lost in time, not dead, not recently resurrected, just lost in time.
I guess that situation does have precedent. Captain Atom blows up a lot in extinction events all the time and it turns out he's just being hurtled about the multiverse.
Which... now that I think of it, is all rather obvious as Monarch was basically Captain Atom.
The explosion sent Prime hurling through time.
It's similar to how the explosion from the Guardian sent him to another Universe, except this time he was sent through time and didn't get a power-up.
The Time Trapper specifically states "Lost in time, but now found". Prime was never killed, and never was it mentioned that he was resurrected or recreated.
He tanked the explosion, just like he tanked the Guardian's suicide attack, but instead of killing him, it sent him hurling through time.
It's a durability feat. He had to be hit by the explosion in order to be sent through space/time.
That's why Monarch's blasts during the fight didn't BFR him, and why there was barely any of his costume left, when was sent to the future.
Originally posted by RorschachThere isn't anything about your other post that's difficult. Prime didn't survive the destruction of Earth-51 universe outright. Like you said, he was actually unintentionally BFRed out of that universe. Which usually happens to Captain Atom (and his analogues) when he blows up, but this time happened to Prime. Lucky for him.
The explosion sent Prime hurling through time. What about that is so hard to understand?It's similar to how the explosion from the Guardian sent him to another Universe, except this time he was sent through time and didn't get a power-up.
The Time Trapper specifically states "Lost in time, but now found". Prime was never killed, and never was it mentioned that he was resurrected or recreated.
The babble about Jason Todd basically has no bearing on any of this. If there was anything that didn't make sense, it was that.
Originally posted by ODG
There isn't anything about your other post that's difficult. Prime didn't survive the destruction of Earth-51 universe outright. Like you said, he was actually unintentionally BFRed out of that universe. Which usually happens to Captain Atom (and his analogues) when he blows up, but this time happened to Prime. Lucky for him.The babble about Jason Todd basically has no bearing on any of this. If there was anything that didn't make sense, it was that.
The explosion is what sent Prime hurling through time. It's a durability feat, plain and simple.
He had to be hit by the explosion in order to be lost in time. It's similar to how the Guardian's suicide attack sent him to another Universe.
His durability is just that high. The best that a Universe destroying level can do to Prime is send him hurling through time.
Originally posted by RorschachIt's a BFR non-feat. Same as when Captain Atom blows up taking universes out in the backlashes but ends up unconscious somewhere across the multiverse or in the Bleed, like the three times he's done it. He was saved by the same plot device mechanics that keep Captain Atom safe during extinction events.
The explosion is what sent Prime hurling through time. It's a durability feat, plain and simple.
Originally posted by RorschachSame with Captain Atom, since he's the one blowing up, after all.
He had to be hit by the explosion in order to be lost in time. It's similar to how the Guardian's suicide attack sent him to another Universe.His durability is just that high. The best that a Universe level attack can do to Prime is send him hurling through time.
Doesn't make Captain Atom's durability that high. Why should it make Prime's? lol
Originally posted by ODG
It's a BFR non-feat. Same as when Captain Atom blows up taking universes out in the backlashes but ends up unconscious somewhere across the multiverse or in the Bleed, like the three times he's done it. He was saved by the same plot device mechanics that keep Captain Atom safe during extinction events. Same with Captain Atom, since he's the one blowing up, after all.Doesn't make Captain Atom's durability that high. Why should it make Prime's? lol
That's the nature of Captain Atom's powers. When he absorbs a certain amount of energy, he time travels.
That's due to his nature as a Quantum being, and his connection the Quantum field.
Prime has no connection to the Quantum field and is not a quantum being. He has to rely on his durability.
When a Guardian tried to kill him, it sent it him to another Universe. When hit by Monarch's explosion, it sent him hurling through time.
The explosion still damaged him, and it was because of how powerful it was that he was lost in time.
Originally posted by RorschachYeah. And it was Captain Atom that blew up in Countdown.
That's the nature of Captain Atom's powers. When he absorbs a certain amount of energy, he time travels.That's due to his nature as a Quantum being, and his connection the Quantum field.
No sh1t, sherlock. The explosion being Captain Atom's quantum energies is exactly what I'm pointing out here.
Originally posted by RorschachLol, no. You can't just divorce the quantum energies and field that BFR'ed the both of them based on absolutely no proof other than you wanting it to be a durability feat for one, but not the other. The only reason people thought Prime survived a universe-buster straight up was because everyone thought his unconscious body was floating around in the destroyed void of Earth-51 where he couldn't have escaped the universe's destruction. But he clearly wasn't, as you're telling us. Monarch's explosion BFRed him away outside of the Earth-51 universe to safety.
Prime has no connection to the Quantum field and is not a quantum being. He has to rely on his durability.
And these hijinks happen all the time in Big Bang and extinction events. Batman n' Robin were right there during the original Anti-Monitor/Spectre struggle that resulted in a big bang in their faces. Ollie was right there when Damage blew up and triggered a big bang in his face. None of these guys have quantum powers protecting them either. But the plot device mechanics end up turning these otherwise destructive events into non-feat BFRs.
Of course, had Ollie been floating in the void and not conveniently thrown across time -- and then somehow thereafter, ended up returning to his own time/place in reality... then of course it'd be a durability feat. Same with Prime. Which we all mistakenly thought. We all thought he was floating in the destroyed void of Earth-51's universe and then transported out. Turns out he wasn't, he was already thrown by the same quantum energies that safely sent Captain Atom across the multiverse.
Originally posted by RorschachGuardian's BFR has nothing to do with Monarch. Notwithstanding that, the Guardian apparently didn't try to kill him. He tried to violently remove him from the New Earth universe molecularly. The Guardians, after-the-fact, state this outright and even theorize that the BFR process would have deposited him somewhere in the multiverse. They also hoped it would hurt. Unfortunately for them, Prime ended up being amped by the Guardan's energies simultaneously.
When a Guardian tried to kill him, it sent it him to another Universe. When hit by Monarch's explosion, it sent him hurling through time.The explosion still damaged him, and it was because of how powerful it was that he was lost in time.
He ended up lost/banished across the multiverse the same way Captain Atom always does. And the quantum field energy BFR mechanics don't make Prime a a universe-buster survivor anymore than Captain Atom.
