Originally posted by spetznaz
The problem you are making is mistaking human movement dynamics with simple linear speed. For instance, believe it or not you jump very fast ....but you cannot run at that speed.In the same way that some people can throw a 90mph fastball, faster than a typical scooter, but that doesn't mean that they can run at 90 mph.
The dynamic process of the human jumping model and joint speeds can be quite high, but that does not mean that just because your skeletal muscles in the leg can manage to exert themselves greatly over a very brief period of time and propel you quite fast upwards that those same muscles will enable you to outrace a person in a car (or for that matter, on a skateboard).
It is bad science to assume that. It would be like saying that because you can snap your fingers very fast that that is your level of speed.
Moving on to comics .....even if we throw out all science and stick to the world of capes, eyes that shoot fire, and folk with green skin, it is still illogical to even compare the speed of the Hulk to that of any TRUE speedster.
People like Supergirl can move fast enough that they are invisible ....the level of speed mandated by such a feat (whereby a human sized being is moving so fast that they cannot be seen ....not even a blur) is astounding, to say the least.
Anyways, whether you try to apply real world physics, or simply stick to comic book lore, the fact still remains that the Hulk might as well be LITERALLY standing still if any TRUE speedster decides to blitz (per KMC rules). This is not to say that the Hulk is slow ....compared to humans (real or comic book) the Hulk is VERY fast .....you wouldn't be able to outrun him in a Lamborghini Murcielago for instance, or for that matter ANY real world car this side of the Batmobile. Thus the Green Dude is fast.
But he is no speedster, and against real speedsters he might as well be standing still.
Some excellent points Spetznaz, finally someone willing to refute me. Cuople of retorts then.
Not disputing that WW or SG could speed blitz Hulk his reaction speed is not high.
Hulks running speed is irrelevant to a fight people rarely run in a fight except away when they are being beaten. But my point is Hulk has a very good chance of landing punches. If he can jump at 25000 mph (instant accelration) how fast can he launch his fists(which are of less mass (lets assume for the purposes of argument 50,000 mph). This is 67 times the speed of sound. Diana or Kara are not gonna have an easy time dodging this. (note also that moving that fst is gonna create a huge shockwave he would not even need to connect).
If we ignore pure science which doesn ot seem to work correctly in the comic world then we have to go on panel feats. Hulk taken on speedsters before and beaten them (non faster than Gladiator who i would argue is superior to SG and WW.
Over to you starwars
Originally posted by severance
Some excellent points Spetznaz, finally someone willing to refute me. Cuople of retorts then.Not disputing that WW or SG could speed blitz Hulk his reaction speed is not high.
Hulks running speed is irrelevant to a fight people rarely run in a fight except away when they are being beaten. But my point is Hulk has a very good chance of landing punches. If he can jump at 25000 mph (instant accelration) how fast can he launch his fists(which are of less mass (lets assume for the purposes of argument 50,000 mph). This is 67 times the speed of sound. Diana or Kara are not gonna have an easy time dodging this. (note also that moving that fst is gonna create a huge shockwave he would not even need to connect).
If we ignore pure science which doesn ot seem to work correctly in the comic world then we have to go on panel feats. Hulk taken on speedsters before and beaten them (non faster than Gladiator who i would argue is superior to SG and WW.
Over to you starwars
From your comment I think we are on the same page on most issues, the main divergences being only two:
1) The extentity of Hulk's speed (whatever metric you use)
2) Whether or not that speed enables him to face off against the Kryptonian and the Amazon.
In the first case I maintain that while the Hulk is fast (e.g. 300mph), he is not speedster fast (unless you are using 1970s Marvel levels of a speedster). Extrapolating his jumping speed to 25,000 mph (I know how you came to that figure .....the velocity required to escape the pull of Earth's gravity), and doubling that to denote the speed of his fists, is stretching things a bit.
Let me quickly explain ....for instance say the Flash can move at c, does that mean he can jump at 10c (sudden release)? Does it mean then that he can punch even faster, to 4c? The extrapolation can get quite convoluted pretty fast.
The second issue is speed.
Thus, if we say a Hulk that can run at 300mph can jump at 25,000mph, and punch at 50,000 mph (per your figures), what does that mean a Kryptonian who can already move as fast as possible within Earth's atmosphere (and even faster without) can punch at?
Point is: If the Hulk's punching is extrapolated, then that should apply to the ladies as well. And that leads to a spider hole .....extrapolating an already uber-fast Kryptonian leads to some seriously warped speeds.
After all, a Hulk punching at 50K mph would be tantamount to Supergirl punching at pre-Crisis Superman levels.
Suffice it to say, speedwise the Hulk simply couldn't match up to the ladies in any extent.
(On the Gladiator bit ....and the Sentry bit ...well, it was in a comic. In much the same way Thor likes to punch people up even though with Mjolnir he could simply wipe out over 90% of the chaps he faces, or how the Flash has Gorilla Grodd for an enemy. Per KMC rules a chap like Captain Cold wouldn't even know there was a Flash before he was in prison.
Originally posted by spetznaz
From your comment I think we are on the same page on most issues, the main divergences being only two:
1) The extentity of Hulk's speed (whatever metric you use)
2) Whether or not that speed enables him to face off against the Kryptonian and the Amazon.In the first case I maintain that while the Hulk is fast (e.g. 300mph), he is not speedster fast (unless you are using 1970s Marvel levels of a speedster). Extrapolating his jumping speed to 25,000 mph (I know how you came to that figure .....the velocity required to escape the pull of Earth's gravity), and doubling that to denote the speed of his fists, is stretching things a bit.
Let me quickly explain ....for instance say the Flash can move at c, does that mean he can jump at 10c (sudden release)? Does it mean then that he can punch even faster, to 4c? The extrapolation can get quite convoluted pretty fast.
The second issue is speed.
Thus, if we say a Hulk that can run at 300mph can jump at 25,000mph, and punch at 50,000 mph (per your figures), what does that mean a Kryptonian who can already move as fast as possible within Earth's atmosphere (and even faster without) can punch at?
Point is: If the Hulk's punching is extrapolated, then that should apply to the ladies as well. And that leads to a spider hole .....extrapolating an already uber-fast Kryptonian leads to some seriously warped speeds.
After all, a Hulk punching at 50K mph would be tantamount to Supergirl punching at pre-Crisis Superman levels.
Suffice it to say, speedwise the Hulk simply couldn't match up to the ladies in any extent.
(On the Gladiator bit ....and the Sentry bit ...well, it was in a comic. In much the same way Thor likes to punch people up even though with Mjolnir he could simply wipe out over 90% of the chaps he faces, or how the Flash has Gorilla Grodd for an enemy. Per KMC rules a chap like Captain Cold wouldn't even know there was a Flash before he was in prison.
Pleasure to debate with ya Spetznaz you use logic well.
I know I am using rather hard to prove extrapolations let me explain how they work (in my mind anyway)
Hulk can only run at 300mph because he doesn't have the leg cadence to go any faster without leaping
He jumps at nearly 25k mph as you point out cos this is earths escape velocity
he punches at 50kmph cos I can throw a fist faster than i can jump (say 90mph) reason being my fist weighs like a pound. Hulks fist may weigh 50lbs but its a lot lighter than his half ton body weight therefore he should be able to accelerate his fist faster. Please understand I don't think this actually happens in comics far from it such a punch would cause untold destruction.
as far as the two ladies being able to throw their punches faster not sure becuase their speed be it c or whatever is not based on strength like huc but something else at a guess Kara psionics and amazon god magic.
Can they achieve these speeds in the atmosphere (i dunno). BTW I am fully expecting you to shoot me down on this last paragraph as it is speculation.
I still think Huc can take out/stun the girls without touching them as a ranged attack like the sonic slap would be hard to avoid.
sp_ike
Actually I think the hulks reaction speed is faster than his linear running speed. The hulk has been able to hit speedsters such as Quick silver and bluestreak when they attempted to speedblitz him, catch tankshells and grab speeding fighter jets and thats savage hulk. I am not so sure about supergirl but I know that quicksilver is faster than wonderwoman so hitting her would not be a problem. Supergirl is not nearly as strong as WWH or thor neither is she as durable as either of them. WWH can take care of wonderwoman as he is stronger(and will continue getting stronger) more durable plus an unbelievable HF. Thor can hit supergirl withth a barrage of lightning bolts which will weaken her and leave her extremely vulnerable. He will then proceed to pummel her to death with mjolnir
Originally posted by ultimatethorWonderwoman is a lot faster than Quicksilver with his speed powers.
Actually I think the hulks reaction speed is faster than his linear running speed. The hulk has been able to hit speedsters such as Quick silver and bluestreak when they attempted to speedblitz him, catch tankshells and grab speeding fighter jets and thats savage hulk. I am not so sure about supergirl but I know that quicksilver is faster than wonderwoman so hitting her would not be a problem. Supergirl is not nearly as strong as WWH or thor neither is she as durable as either of them. WWH can take care of wonderwoman as he is stronger(and will continue getting stronger) more durable plus an unbelievable HF. Thor can hit supergirl withth a barrage of lightning bolts which will weaken her and leave her extremely vulnerable. He will then proceed to pummel her to death with mjolnir
Originally posted by ultimatethor
Actually I think the hulks reaction speed is faster than his linear running speed. The hulk has been able to hit speedsters such as Quick silver and bluestreak when they attempted to speedblitz him, catch tankshells and grab speeding fighter jets and thats savage hulk. I am not so sure about supergirl but I know that quicksilver is faster than wonderwoman so hitting her would not be a problem. Supergirl is not nearly as strong as WWH or thor neither is she as durable as either of them. WWH can take care of wonderwoman as he is stronger(and will continue getting stronger) more durable plus an unbelievable HF. Thor can hit supergirl withth a barrage of lightning bolts which will weaken her and leave her extremely vulnerable. He will then proceed to pummel her to death with mjolnir
There are a lot of flaws in that post really.
WonderWoman and Supergirl are many times faster than ye olde Quicksilver, and hitting Supergirl with a "barrage" of magical lightning bolts would kill her.
Originally posted by Juntai
So your entire debate is based in speculation and extrapolation, then closes with saying a sonic clap will KO Supergirl and Wonder Woman?
Everything we debate here is speculaton and extrapolation. We are talking about comics here not the real world its not an exact science. I am just making a suggestion that applying real science to what we see on panel gives hulk ability to hit ww.
Hulk has hit speedsters on panel and i am backing it up with some logic and scientific/mathmatical extrapolation
Originally posted by severanceBatman's hit speedsters too, and just like Hulk- there is no science to explain it.... the sad truth is, neither Hulk nor Batman should be able to, and neither one of them stand much chance against a kryptonian or the amazonian princess without a writer to throw out stats and just make it happen for the better of a story.
Everything we debate here is speculaton and extrapolation. We are talking about comics here not the real world its not an exact science. I am just making a suggestion that applying real science to what we see on panel gives hulk ability to hit ww.Hulk has hit speedsters on panel and i am backing it up with some logic and scientific/mathmatical extrapolation
On paper, they're just way too much for Hulk.
Originally posted by Juntai
Batman's hit speedsters too, and just like Hulk- there is no science to explain it.... the sad truth is, neither Hulk nor Batman should be able to, and neither one of them stand much chance against a kryptonian or the amazonian princess without a writer to throw out stats and just make it happen for the better of a story.On paper, they're just way too much for Hulk.
I here what you are saying but I believe on paper hulk can win. Maybe not all the time
Originally posted by Juntai
Batman's hit speedsters too, and just like Hulk- there is no science to explain it.... the sad truth is, neither Hulk nor Batman should be able to, and neither one of them stand much chance against a kryptonian or the amazonian princess without a writer to throw out stats and just make it happen for the better of a story.On paper, they're just way too much for Hulk.
I think it's been established that the Hulk does in fact have Superhuman speed.
Yes!
Originally posted by spetznaz
The problem you are making is mistaking human movement dynamics with simple linear speed. For instance, believe it or not you jump very fast ....but you cannot run at that speed.In the same way that some people can throw a 90mph fastball, faster than a typical scooter, but that doesn't mean that they can run at 90 mph.
The dynamic process of the human jumping model and joint speeds can be quite high, but that does not mean that just because your skeletal muscles in the leg can manage to exert themselves greatly over a very brief period of time and propel you quite fast upwards that those same muscles will enable you to outrace a person in a car (or for that matter, on a skateboard).
It is bad science to assume that. It would be like saying that because you can snap your fingers very fast that that is your level of speed.
Moving on to comics .....even if we throw out all science and stick to the world of capes, eyes that shoot fire, and folk with green skin, it is still illogical to even compare the speed of the Hulk to that of any TRUE speedster.
People like Supergirl can move fast enough that they are invisible ....the level of speed mandated by such a feat (whereby a human sized being is moving so fast that they cannot be seen ....not even a blur) is astounding, to say the least.
Anyways, whether you try to apply real world physics, or simply stick to comic book lore, the fact still remains that the Hulk might as well be LITERALLY standing still if any TRUE speedster decides to blitz (per KMC rules). This is not to say that the Hulk is slow ....compared to humans (real or comic book) the Hulk is VERY fast .....you wouldn't be able to outrun him in a Lamborghini Murcielago for instance, or for that matter ANY real world car this side of the Batmobile. Thus the Green Dude is fast.
But he is no speedster, and against real speedsters he might as well be standing still.
This is brilliant. It is clear, uses enough real logic and physics without a bunch of mumbo-jumbo to obfuscate. Best of all, you didn't show a bunch of scans and quote a bunch of dubious comic events to bolster your argument. Too many posters can't see the forest (individual comics and/or storylines) for the trees (the actual core reality of the character in question). It's insane to claim Hulk is even close to WW or SG speed. I still think his team wins, but I love love LOVE your post.
Re: Yes!
Originally posted by Cap'n Happy
This is brilliant. It is clear, uses enough real logic and physics without a bunch of mumbo-jumbo to obfuscate. Best of all, you didn't show a bunch of scans and quote a bunch of dubious comic events to bolster your argument. Too many posters can't see the forest (individual comics and/or storylines) for the trees (the actual core reality of the character in question). It's insane to claim Hulk is even close to WW or SG speed. I still think his team wins, but I love love LOVE your post.
Who claimed that the Hulk was even remotely comparable to WW or SG in speed?