National Health Care Plan

Originally posted by Bardock42
One could have a sort of welfare/healthcare plan for people that fall below the minimum. What you are for is not universal health care though, I wouldn't mind such a system either though I see no reason why the government has to be involved, a free market could offer such a service just as well.

Universal health care is health care for everyone. Under the system I want, there would be universal health care.

Subsidy assistance for those who can't afford and an opt out option for those who want to pay for healthcare through their employers and supplemental healthcare for commerical plans that have "holes".

Then there could always be the option of a commercial healthcare equivalent. In this option, the citizen pays a commercial entity the same thing they would normally pay the Fed for the Universal Healthcare. The commercial entity could offer much better benefits at the same rate via PPNs(Preferred provider networks...in other words, an HMO option).

My proposal is already very similar to what we have in place already. It wouldn't be hard to make the transition. The difference between my program and what is in place with Medicare right now is I would have the end "insured" be directly paying the commercial entity for their coverage. Currently, it doesn't work that way. The Medicare recipient pays the Fed their Medicare fee regardless of who the insurer is. This is stupid because the government only pays the insurer a rate based on the number of "customers". This is wrong. Despite this fact, the Medicare replacement plans are still able to offer better plans than the federal government.

Of course, the subsidy for the poor would be necessary. One flaw I already see in my plan is the money available for subsidy. That would have to be remedied through a tax. I don't know where this tax would come from but it would have to occur. It could be in the form of a higher tax for the Healthcare itself. This of course, would leave the commercial entities with even more money. The government program would pale in comparison to the commercial plans. In fact, there may not even be a need for the government side of the plan.

This, of course, brings us full circle to libertarian ideals. The commercial and religious entities would be the ones to provide the "subsidy". Kind of funny how I ended up with a libertarian ideal at the end of this post.

I don't know...I guess my plan would work if the government taxes a portion of the premiums paid to the commercial insurance providers. The providers could still provide a much better plan for less money than the Fed does.(Because they do it now with Medicare.) Besides, more competition would create better Healthcare for all.

Originally posted by chithappens
Obligation, yes.

But they are not being punished for the bullshit they do pull. All these damn kickbacks.

As a result of insurance companies not doing as they should, hospitals will send people home before they need to leave, resulting in that person getting half-ass medical treatment. This has happened to three of my grandparents in the past two years.

The current system is just dumb.

Or the fact that it's not unheard of for insurance companies to drop people's policies once they actually use the insurance for anything other than routine doctor visits.

Or constantly cut back what they will cover (something my family has been having a hard time with, as my brother is diabetic and our insurance keeps cutting back what stuff they'll cover).

And if you don't have insurance and can't get it through work, and have anything they deem a 'pre-existing condition' (which can be anything from seeing a doctor once for depression, to an injury, to being pregnant, to heart problems)? Good luck, they won't touch you with a ten foot pole.

Our current system is completely ****ed up, and the cost of it isn't even half of it.

Originally posted by Lana
Or the fact that it's not unheard of for insurance companies to drop people's policies once they actually use the insurance for anything other than routine doctor visits.

Or constantly cut back what they will cover (something my family has been having a hard time with, as my brother is diabetic and our insurance keeps cutting back what stuff they'll cover).

And if you don't have insurance and can't get it through work, and have anything they deem a 'pre-existing condition' (which can be anything from seeing a doctor once for depression, to an injury, to being pregnant, to heart problems)? Good luck, they won't touch you with a ten foot pole.

Our current system is completely ****ed up, and the cost of it isn't even half of it.

Let me offer an example to compliment this: my grandfather had a stroke and can no longer move his left side or speak. Now, suddenly, all of this random shit is not covered, and it needs to come out of the pocket of the family.

So one day, the hospital calls my mother and tells them to come get my grandfather in the next two hours because he has to leave when previously they had informed us we would have at least a 24 warning before he was discharged. I'm no genius, but it was obvious before we even had a chance to talk policy again that it was because of something concerning insurance. I hate it.

You can't possibly understand the bullshit until it happens to you.

I'll co-sign that Ron Paul video Kramer posted.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
Most Western countries are in debt in proportion to their wealth anyway- it actually doesn't matter that much. Frankly, you cannot possibly advance the argument that in some way the US cannot afford it when it is the world's most affluent country.

It just needs an attitude shift, and thankfully it is at last happening because the lack of such a health care system is surprisingly backwards of the US, and something that other developed nations are rather amazed and shocked at.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
Currencies go down, currencies go up. Long-term it doesn't matter- again, you are simply straining credulity if you try and make out the US cannot afford it.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
Again, that doesn't matter. After the depression comes the boom. All countries have their cycles, yet the other western countries have run universal health care programmes during such cycles.

Stop fooling yourself. The problem is absolutely NOT that the US cannot do it. It is simply that the will has not before existed to do it. But finally the hideous immorality of a system that is not universal is becoming more and more clear to all; the failings of the system as is have been swept under the tug for ggenerations but it won't keep on like that any more.

I could just as easily argue that health care doesn't matter. And we are in an unusually serious financial problem. Sure, debt isn't a big issue usually. Usually, our economy is stabilized by the fact that other countries are in more debt to us then we are to them. Usually, our debt is because of some huge technological advancements we've focused our money on. Usually, most of our major budget areas aren't screaming for development.

Now, we have a net debt of 1 trillion. All of our major budget items (the educational system, health care system, national defense, etc) need more money just to compete with the rest of the world.

This isn't something that will go up automatically.

Originally posted by Quark_666
I could just as easily argue that health care doesn't matter.

oh please do. i like when people make themselves look silly

Originally posted by Quark_666
And we are in an unusually serious financial problem. Sure, debt isn't a big issue usually. Usually, our economy is stabilized by the fact that other countries are in more debt to us then we are to them. Usually, our debt is because of some huge technological advancements we've focused our money on. Usually, most of our major budget areas aren't screaming for development.

Now, we have a net debt of 1 trillion. All of our major budget items (the educational system, health care system, national defense, etc) need more money just to compete with the rest of the world.

This isn't something that will go up automatically.

all irrelevant. nowhere have you presented a convincing argument that we cannot afford universal healthcare (or 'socialized' healthcare as idiots like to call it).

Originally posted by Quark_666
Usually, our debt is because of some huge technological advancements we've focused our money on.

False.

Originally posted by Quark_666
Usually, most of our major budget areas aren't screaming for development.

Screaming for reform, yes.

Originally posted by Quark_666
Now, we have a net debt of 1 trillion.

False.

Originally posted by Quark_666
All of our major budget items (the educational system, health care system, national defense, etc) need more money just to compete with the rest of the world.

Education...yes. Managing it better could reduce some of the budget problems associated with this "budget item".

Health Care...yes. Managing it better could reduce some of the budget problems associated with this "budget item".

National Defense...no...not by a long shot. Maybe managed better.

Originally posted by DigiMark007
I'll co-sign that Ron Paul video Kramer posted.

That's because you're a genius. 131

If National Health Care Plan doesn't come to play in the US, I am moving to Canada, marry a Canadian and have free health care. **** insurance companies, most of the time they reject you, its bullshit.

Originally posted by Leo.M
If National Health Care Plan doesn't come to play in the US, I am moving to Canada, marry a Canadian and have free health care. **** insurance companies, most of the time they reject you, its bullshit.

It's not free.

I found out my insurance doesn't cover emergency room visits. Asses.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
I found out my insurance doesn't cover emergency room visits. Asses.

Yea, you have to pay for that LOL. $500 I believe just for ambulance showing up. Not sure if that in a nation-wide fee or just in my state.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
I found out my insurance doesn't cover emergency room visits. Asses.

Well then what the hell good is it?

As for the thread topic, the money we already spend on public health care could easily pay for universal healthcare. But what we need to remember is that "freeing" a market that is already cornered by the same drug and insurance industries will be a ueseless effort.

Originally posted by Devil King
Well then what the hell good is it?

As for the thread topic, the money we already spend on public health care could easily pay for universal healthcare. But what we need to remember is that "freeing" a market that is already cornered by the same drug and insurance industries will be a ueseless effort.

Originally posted by Bardock42
That is inaccurate. Freeing the market would bring in vast competition and could actually lower the proces. Your other point is true though, America already spends more than any other country in the world on Health Care, but it isn't done effectively.

Oh yeah, cause a guy working out of his basement is going to be able to compete with any number of companies who report a 30 billion dollar profit every year.

Originally posted by Devil King
Oh yeah, cause a guy working out of his basement is going to be able to compete with any number of companies who report a 30 billion dollar profit every year.

If they are forced not to use unfree methods, maybe. I understand you can't see it, but the doctors as well as the drug companies would have to compete on a free market giving the consumer a huge advantage again, as they can now shop and get their business where they want.

Originally posted by Bardock42
If they are forced not to use unfree methods, maybe. I understand you can't see it, but the doctors as well as the drug companies would have to compete on a free market giving the consumer a huge advantage again, as they can now shop and get their business where they want.

And what I know you can't see is that the doctors in this country are catered to and wined and dined by drug company reps. Looking at the wall in a doctor's waiting room is like looking at the back of a nascar driver's jumpsuit. They're covered with pamphlets and posters and clocks, that are all in turn covered with the names of certain drugs. When you go to sign in for your appointment, the pens are covered with drug adds. So, suddenly freeing these companies to do as they please isn't going to change anything.

Welcome to Costco, I love you.

Originally posted by Devil King
And what I know you can't see is that the doctors in this country are catered to and wined and dined by drug company reps. Looking at the wall in a doctor's waiting room is like looking at the back of a nascar driver's jumpsuit. They're covered with pamphlets and posters and clocks, that are all in turn covered with the names of certain drugs. When you go to sign in for your appointment, the pens are covered with drug adds. So, suddenly freeing these companies to do as they please isn't going to change anything.

Welcome to Costco, I love you.

What do you mean with suddenly freeing? You gave them powers beyond anything a free market would grant them. They wouldn't get more free, the consumers would.

Originally posted by Bardock42
What do you mean with suddenly freeing? You gave them powers beyond anything a free market would grant them. They wouldn't get more free, the consumers would.

I mean suddenly freeing them would result in them doing exactly what they;re already doing, which is using their money to influence the sale of their product, whether the product works or not.

It's one of the things I don't understand about people thinking that RP is talking about something new. Our government is already a subsidiary of business in this country (Both parties) and loosening the reigns and cutting their taxes isn't going to make anything better.

Originally posted by Devil King
I mean suddenly freeing them would result in them doing exactly what they;re already doing, which is using their money to influence the sale of their product, whether the product works or not.

It's one of the things I don't understand about people thinking that RP is talking about something new. Our government is already a subsidiary of business in this country (Both parties) and loosening the reigns and cutting their taxes isn't going to make anything better.

That's the problem I see. People believe for some reason that the US is a free market, capitalist society already, which is of course nonsense. The size of the government alone speaks against that. The problem the US has is not the free market running rampant, but the large government being immensely vulnerable to lobbyists, which ****s the free market so hard up the ass and only plays in the hands of big corporations and large interest groups. It's sad how capitalism is the ideologie that gets all the shit for the US being sucky, while it is really just the opposite that's doing it.