Good. It's an interesting theory and without further proof, it's a bit early to condemn it as "utterly ridiculous". Unless you can provide concrete evidence who SD really is, until then with canon sources only, we can be sure that QGJ did indeed die round and about "ten years ago." So I still consider it a possibility. Maybe an unlikely one, but not per se utterly ridiculous. After all Dooku hinted at a possibility of QGJ joining him and we also know the Sith use 95% truth and a bit of lies to seduce people...
Not early at all. I state with confidence that it is utterly ridiculous that QGJ led a double life as a Jedi Master named Sifo-Dyas, that Obi-Wan knew Sido-Dyas existed, yet did not know Qui-Gon was him.
We ALSO know, from GL's comments, that the bad guys start looking at the Cloning possibility AFTER the failure of the droids in TPM. QGJ would have been too dead to place such an order as Sifo-Dyas. Sifo-Dyas could be being impersonated, of course, but if he is being impersonated then him being QGJ becomes not only ridiculous but also pointless.
Your Dooku link is bad as well. Dooku did not join Sidious until after Mauls' death. So any idea of QGJ having done any work for his former Master in the cause of evil is hogwash.
Well u see there's a subtle trick there ... u see ... Obi Wan says SiphoDyas died 10 years back ... now ... Around the time of the events of TPM, before QGJ got killed ... we know that Dooku was part of the Jedi order. We also know that Qui Gon was a jedi that wouldnt neccessarily follow the wishes and ways of the Jedi Council, but often do things his way, even if it wasnt exactly in accord with the ideas of the Jedi Council. It would not be too much to assume that by this time, Count Dooku would also be of such a bent of mind in this respect ... i.e. willing to do things differently then from the ways of the Jedi Council if he felt it neccessary ... remember that by this time he was already disillusioned about the way in which the Jedi Council functioned, and its place in the galactic heirarchy ... ( Qui Gon's death was what basically snapped his patience and caused him to leave the council and the order ). Now ... it is possible ( maybe not PROBABLE ) ... but possible ... that QGJ and Dooku, with the idea of building an army of clones, to strengthen the military strength of the Jedi Order, approach the jedi order with this idea ... and the jedi order turn them down. However, Dooku and Qui Gon decide to go their own way, and take matters into their own hand ... and Qui Gon, secretly does commission an army of clones from the planet of Kamino ... under the name Sipho Dyas. Now u see ... at this time, it wasnt like Dooku had yet left the jedi order, and turned to the dark side ... nor that QGJ was covertly helping the forces of darkness. At this time, it was simply a move that both thought of doing, for the good of the jedi order. The jedi council DO find out about this, and obviously would decide to take punitive action against Dooku and QGJ ... however, unfortunately, before they could get to this matter, Qui Gon gets killed by Maul. For Dooku, this is what snaps his patience ... and upset at his former padawan's death ... ( and the fact, that the council might take action against him for disobeying them and going ahead with the clone army order ), quits the Jedi order. The council, apart from the death of Qui Gon, also announce the death of the jedi Sipho Dyas - the pseudonym that Qui Gon used.
The army that Dooku and Qui Gon secretly commisioned, for the benefit of the jedi order, ultimately is used by the forces of darkness i.e. Dooku himself who turns to the dark side, and his master Darth Sidious.
I agree this theory has difficulties in it, but inspite of its unlikelyhood, it does have possibilities, and it cant be discarded at this stage. Because it is a significant co-incidence that Sipho Dyas and Qui Gon both died around the same time .... both were " killed ".
This theory also does fit some of the facts well, e.g. the look that Yoda and Mace Windu exchange when Obi Wan asks about Sipho Dyas. It would be reasonable to assume, that the jedi order would hush up Qui Gon's use of a false pseudonym " Sipho Dyas " - maybe he did it on more than one occassion. They hushed it up, so as to prevent other jedi from becoming insurgent in their ways, influenced by Qui Gon, and also to sweep the incident under the carpet to prevent a "scandal" in the jedi ranks. So obviously, 10 years later, when the ugly head of the fictitious master sipho-dyas rears its ugly head - that look between Yoda and Windu.
Strange that Obi knew when SD was killed but didnt know what he looked like!!!!!!!!!!!!! The theory that QGJ should be SD is to dumb to be right. The JC didnt know about the building of the clone army at all so an early idea of a clone army would have made the JC aware of that possibility and made it harder if not impossible for the Siths to create a secret clone army.
Obi wan was a padawan of QGJ so he would have followed him around on all missions, how should QGJ be able to go to Kamino without Obi Wan
Good points. Its true this theory has a lot of difficulties ... but there are two coincidences, which are significant here ... one of the two must have a bearing on the solving of the mystery ... 1. That Sipho-Dyas died at about the same time as Qui Gon Jinn - and both were " killed " ... the other coincidence is the name itself - Sipho Dyas and Sideous. This is a mystery for the fans to solve ... and these are two clues that I can think of ... of course a simple arbitrary explanation of Sipho Dyas being a renegade Jedi who got killed is the most basic, simple and fits all the facts. However its also boring !
Two of the difficulties that u point out Finti can be accounted by a simple twist ...
Sipho Dyas was a cover name or non-de-plume ( as in espionage procedure ) used by Qui Gon on secret missions known only to a couple of people in the Jedi Council ( i.e. Yoda and Windu and Dooku who at the time was a part of the Jedi Council ) ... and himself - not even Obi Wan. There were over 200 jedi at the height of the Jedi order ... Obi Wan could not possibly be expected to know ALL the jedi by face ...it would be theoretically possible to create a fictitious cover for Qui Gon with the name Sipho Dyas. Say a lesser not to well known jedi master, from an out of the way part of the galaxy ... deliberately made out unimportant and therefore inconspicuous. The death of Qui Gon in action, would also require the jedi order to list the fictitious master " Sipho Dyas " as dead - cause of death ? " killed in action ". Of course the truth about the covername Sipho Dyas would only be known to three people in the Jedi Order i.e. Yoda, Windu and Dooku. Hence the look between Yoda and Windu at that name.
Now about the commisioning of the clone army unknown to Yoda and Windu .... it would be a secret act between Dooku and Qui Gon. They were both alike in that they disagreed with the policies and modus operandi of the Council ... and they would assume that an official request to commision a clone army for the jedi would be met with refusal by the council ... hence Qui Gon would, using his cover name, commission an army from the kaminoans, and this would be known now ONLY to Count Dooku, who would later use the clone army against the jedi, after his turn to the dark side.
It IS far fetched, but with certain manipulations, such a twist would be possible in the story line and would be FAR more interesting then a lame ( albeit perfectly satisfactory ) resolution of the mystery by making Sipho Dyas an actual master, that secretely commisioned a clone army, and subsequently got killed in action.
It's all extended nonsense. You can make ANY plot come true with enough ludicrous rationale, but to any reasonable observer such a plot remains utterly ridiculous, doubly so from a filmmaking viewpoint
The ten years back thing is PURELY a reference to a plotline that began just after TPM.
BTW, what makes you think the Order is only 200 strong?
If you ask me, this would not be a more 'interesting' twist than the conventional explanation; it would be pointless and extremely silly and crap. "SD was Qui-Gon? What sort of stupid shit is THIS?" The only reason you would be disappointed by any conventional explanation is because the whole thing has been over-analyzed and now you want a silly twist just for the sake of it. If there is going to be a twist, it is far more likely that Sifo-Dyas is not dead, and something releated to that.
BTW, two things you are forgetting, Harmax. The template for the commissioned clones was Jango. Jango was recruited by Dooku AFTER he fell to the Dark Side.
Therefore, work on the Clones did not begin until after QGJ's death. And you can make another silly rationale like "Ah, but they were PLANNING it before..." but it would remain just that- very silly. If you want me to say it is possible, then yes, it is possible. But is it credible? No.
Secondly, Sifo-Dyas is described as a Council Member. Obi-Wan does not dispute this. It is, obviously, not possible that QGJ was also a Council Member, nor that Obi-Wan would not have known his face.
It is also worth noting that Obi-Wan says to Mace and Yoda that he thought Sifo-Dyas had died BEFORE the point the Clones were ordered.
Everything we have from the films clearly indicates that the whole thing was a plot that was planned and put together AFTER TPM before it and this whole theory is just a pile of horse dung, and those proposing it know it. QGJ had nothing to do with that army.
Incidentally, if I suspect silly theories are being put forward just to wind people up, then I will close this thread.
Oooooh.... a threat!
But come on, this is good stuff. THere are possibities here and without any other clue, we can theoreticise about this. It's fun, it excercises the brain and gives a a stage to nitpick about unlikely but not entirely impossible theories. Better than sitting around and be bored until spoilers come in...
Good show, Harmax!
Good show? Anyone can make an extended justifcation of anything they want like that. Like all the people who justified Obi-Wan being Luke's father or Amidala being a Sith over time. I make justified objection to anyone presenting this sort of thing as a serious possibility, and I also feel justified in rejecting it as ridiculous. It's not as it you even believe it.
I find nothing at all interesting in such vague straw-grasping. If you want to make up ridiculous scenarios, feel free, but don;t pretend there is any validity to them.