Thanos HotU vs. PR Beyonder

Originally posted by SupremeMan

Yes.
Regardless of who in the real world made the decisions,
Pre-retcon Beyonder was God before God created anything,
the sole all-encompassing entity of his own multiverse
of which the other multiverse he was observing
was an a drop of water compared to an ocean don't blame me,
(Marvel said it).
To that pre-retcon Beyonder,
Thanos and all his toys put together would be irrelevant.
The only devices that got to the Beyonder were ones he made himself.
The Beyonder that people keep saying would be beaten by Thanos is not the pre-retcon Beyonder.
People are sneaking in elements of post-retcon
or assuming the Beyonder makes devices that can beat him
and allows Thanos to get them.

All the reason are there, but I still say stalemate.

I can't back track in my honesty,
they were both absolute "gods" ...
Thanos had a different experience,
cause he was just Thanos before acquiring said power,
while Beyonder always was said power.

Technically speaking, imo, Beyonder has the edge,
but I know everything about the Heart, and I can't uncompromise it,
so I land at a stalemate.

Originally posted by Erik-Lensherr

I'm sorry, but when discussions get to this point ..

This is becoming ridiculous.

Originally posted by Erik-Lensherr

Thinking TOAA = writers is ridiculous enough

The Kirbiesk avatar "god" (the Artist) admitted,
that he did not know what will happen next
until he drew the ideas given to him by the writer,
signifying Humanity:

..............................................................................................

Here's the scene:

Where "god" (Artist) and his "collaborator" (Writer)
are envisioning their next comic book arcs,
that will take place in Marvel Comic Books: (which WE Read)

This is obviously a fictional representation of Real Human beings.

..............................................................................................

Even more obvious:

WHAT does "god" (the Artist) use to CREATE?

"The wellspring of ALL Reality is a Yellow Stick" (a Pencil) 😬

...............................................................................................

Ben Grim asked "god" (the Artist)

"I gotta go home like this?" (as the Thing)

"god" (the Artist) replies:

You were gonna wake in Reed's healing tank, anyway,
I just condensed your SUBPLOT a little"

..............................................................................................

In the end, "god" (the Artist) sends the FF home, notice the BACKGROUND!

It's a freakin SKETCH obviously made by the PENCIL!

The SKETCH becomes their Reality:

Originally posted by Erik-Lensherr

but now using this to debate certain charactes,
going as far as to talk about editors and such,
is idiotic, no offense intended

But, if you have a issue with what was presented On Panel above,
take it up with Marvel, after all, they made the above depictions canon.

I have the bios if you wish. 🙂

Here's your mistake, MM... TOAA isn't any specific writer, it's marvel in general. Just like how it WASN'T Jack Kirby and Stan Lee who did FF #511, it's not any specific writer. Marvel doesn't have different Gods for every comic, and LT doesn't have a different boss every time he appears in a new title. That would just be stupid.

Originally posted by King Kandy

Here's your mistake, MM...
TOAA isn't any specific writer, it's marvel in general.

Point that out for me.

Tooa/god is not Marvel in general,
it's the writerS/ArtistS of Marvel in general.

If that's what you meant, we agree.

Originally posted by King Kandy

Just like how it WASN'T Jack Kirby and Stan Lee who did FF #511,
it's not any specific writer.

I been saying for ever,
that Toaa/god is a representitive of Marvel's writerS & ArtistS as depicted on panel.

Originally posted by King Kandy

Marvel doesn't have different Gods for every comic,
and LT doesn't have a different boss every time he appears in a new title.
That would just be stupid.

Toaa/god is the writer and artist of ANY given story.

Toaa/god (writerS/artistS)
have to of course do their best to adhere to a character's power-set and history.

And that's where the problem lies,
cause some times writer's produce stories like they don't read comics.

So basically what you are saying is that if LT appears in an X-Men comic, he has a different boss then he would if he'd appeared in Spider-Man.

Originally posted by King Kandy
So basically what you are saying is that if LT appears in an X-Men comic, he has a different boss then he would if he'd appeared in Spider-Man.

MM just means the WRITER in general. Don't think of the TOAA as a person...Marvel writers will come and go...and different writers only write for certain characters or storylines. You can't think of the TOAA as being the particular writer of the story..at the time. Just think of the POSITION...WRITER....the WRITER is the LT's boss. If you look at it that way...it becomes much more clear.

For instance...let's say the LT made 10 appearances in 2008...and that each appearance he made in a comic was written by a different writer. Well, the LT wouldn't have 10 different bosses....he would just have one boss....the WRITER. Forget about who wrote the comic...just concern yourself with the TOAA's position...as a writer...not as a human being. Like I said, writers will come and go...but, that one thing that stays the same...is that there will ALWAYS be a WRITER. Unless Marvel goes out of business, there will always be a writer to perpetuate the stories of everyone in Marvel. So, Mister Master is write...the TOAA is not so much the PERSON...but, the POSITION, or JOB that the Marvel employee has.

Beyonder wins, he has the hos and the white leisure suit.

I have hard time accepting that one avatar of the wrtier is powerful than another one due to the way he's potrayed.
One of the avatars are flying through the Multiverse making things into existence by willing them into existience while the other is grasping a pen in a distant place writing them into existence.

Now of course you could use the argument that the second avatar of the wrtier was outside creation. But the second avatar of the writer wasn't, he was in the fictional world standing next to Reed Richards holding an argument, unless Reed Richard was outside creation (comics) then they weren't outside creation. Since everything within the comics is within the creation sort to speak.

To explain it better, creation = all that is potrayed in the comics.
If it was outside creation it would be in the real world, and we all know that Richard hasn't been here more than perhaps in the dreams of children.

And the actual writer isn't a part of the fictional Marvel universe, so I see no reason in adding him into a hierarchy of any sort.
It would be like asking: "Who is the most powerful being in Dragonball?" - "Well that has to be Akira Toriyama."

A writer can wish to potray his avatar in any way he like. Even through a already existing character like Thanos.
As long as the writer of the comics is protecting the character through fire and flames he will not lose.

Originally posted by Southern_Rebel

MM just means the WRITER in general. Don't think of the TOAA as a person...Marvel writers will come and go...and different writers only write for certain characters or storylines. You can't think of the TOAA as being the particular writer of the story..at the time. Just think of the POSITION...WRITER....the WRITER is the LT's boss. If you look at it that way...it becomes much more clear.

For instance...let's say the LT made 10 appearances in 2008...and that each appearance he made in a comic was written by a different writer. Well, the LT wouldn't have 10 different bosses....he would just have one boss....the WRITER. Forget about who wrote the comic...just concern yourself with the TOAA's position...as a writer...not as a human being. Like I said, writers will come and go...but, that one thing that stays the same...is that there will ALWAYS be a WRITER. Unless Marvel goes out of business, there will always be a writer to perpetuate the stories of everyone in Marvel. So, Mister Master is write...the TOAA is not so much the PERSON...but, the POSITION, or JOB that the Marvel employee has.

I'm being honest, it's not all cause you're in agreement with me right now,
but I'm sincerely amazed that you
and some others have understood what I'm saying to a T,
and yet others I lose in my explanation.
(I really don't get it, they're equally intelligent/reasonable members)
yet, they don't see what I feel is a comprehensible somewhat simple report,
perhaps I think it's a simple exposition when it's really not,
and so I don't see this myself because it's simple to me,
or perhaps I'm not descrbing it as clearly as I thought I did,
but then individuals such as yourself (and others)
come in and hit the nail in one shot.

Bah, I'm ranting,
in the end, happy to see you (and there's others) see what I see. 🙂

Originally posted by Southern_Rebel
MM just means the WRITER in general. Don't think of the TOAA as a person...Marvel writers will come and go...and different writers only write for certain characters or storylines. You can't think of the TOAA as being the particular writer of the story..at the time. Just think of the POSITION...WRITER....the WRITER is the LT's boss. If you look at it that way...it becomes much more clear.

For instance...let's say the LT made 10 appearances in 2008...and that each appearance he made in a comic was written by a different writer. Well, the LT wouldn't have 10 different bosses....he would just have one boss....the WRITER. Forget about who wrote the comic...just concern yourself with the TOAA's position...as a writer...not as a human being. Like I said, writers will come and go...but, that one thing that stays the same...is that there will ALWAYS be a WRITER. Unless Marvel goes out of business, there will always be a writer to perpetuate the stories of everyone in Marvel. So, Mister Master is write...the TOAA is not so much the PERSON...but, the POSITION, or JOB that the Marvel employee has.

Originally posted by King Kandy

I understand that. That was always my position.
It was Master that I thought didn't understand it.

SR is actually agreeing with me, while you were disagreeing with me,
so how is it that now SR is agreeing with what you were saying?

Clarify K,
cause now I don't know what your offical stance is.

I think we lost each other somewhere,
while instead, we were both in agreement.

Right. I was never disagreeing with you. The statements I made were supposed to sarcastically illustrate what I thought YOU believed. And I was in error.

We are all in agreement, that there is only one TOAA, correct?

Originally posted by King Kandy

Right. I was never disagreeing with you.
The statements I made were supposed to sarcastically illustrate
what I thought YOU believed. And I was in error.

We are all in agreement, that there is only one TOAA, correct?

The only detail to that is,
this one, Toaa/god, is represented by any given writer/artist in Marvel.

Now, SR brought up a good point,
stories involving high end uber cosmics are seldom seen,
and even less stories involving the LT or the truly hardly ever mentioned Oaa/god.

So even if Toaa/god switches from writer/artist to writer/artist,
they're usually swtiched by writers
that have a good concept of what the uber cosmology is like.

So, no harm is really done.

Unfortunately/rearely, we'll get a rogue writer,
that makes a mess of things with ridiculous Pis (hence Last Planet Standing)
Thankfully, this is rare.

I'm sorry if it was too much for ya.

What was too much ?

Toaa/god of FF#511 does in fact = an avatar representitive of the Writers/Artists,
clearly depicted in said issue, if you never read it or saw it,
I suggest you pick up a copy beofre making ridiculous statements.

The Kirbiesk avatar "god" (the Artist) admitted,
that he did not know what will happen next
until he drew the ideas given to him by the writer,
signifying Humanity:

..............................................................................................

Here's the scene:

Where "god" (Artist) and his "collaborator" (Writer)
are envisioning their next comic book arcs,
that will take place in Marvel Comic Books: (which WE Read)

This is obviously a fictional representation of Real Human beings.

..............................................................................................

Even more obvious:

WHAT does "god" (the Artist) use to CREATE?

"The wellspring of ALL Reality is a Yellow Stick" (a Pencil) erm

...............................................................................................

Ben Grim asked "god" (the Artist)

"I gotta go home like this?" (as the Thing)

"god" (the Artist) replies:

You were gonna wake in Reed's healing tank, anyway,
I just condensed your SUBPLOT a little"

..............................................................................................

In the end, "god" (the Artist) sends the FF home, notice the BACKGROUND!

It's a freakin SKETCH obviously made by the PENCIL!

The SKETCH becomes their Reality:

Too bad that was only how the Fantastic Four percieved him :

„What you see is what I am to you”

„That’s what my creations do. They try to find humanity in God”

This directed at me obviously, and I'm not offended at you calling me an idiot.

But, if you have a issue with what was presented On Panel above,
take it up with Marvel, after all, they made the above depictions canon.

I have the bios if you wish. smile

I'm not calling you an idiot, I'm arguing the angle in which you are approaching this debates (using the writers and editors) idiotic. There's a difference.

And yes, I do have the issue.

Oh yeah, that's a good point. I forgot about that one.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Shooter abusing his power is not my problem.

He noticeably got away with it,
because the Beyonder was created,
and with exaggerated power as Shooter intended.

With also speaks for him getting away with it, all major writers at that time was furious with his creation and meddling in there comics and story lines which his creation was during.

I think you have your dates mix up there friend.

Jim Shooter was the Editor-in Chief,
through out Beyonder's entire existence in Secret Wars I and II,
in fact, Tom DeFalco was his successor in 1987 (Two Years after SS-II)

I don't even think Englehart was ever Editor-in chief of anything,
certainly not in the mid or late 80's (that was Shooter and DeFalco)[/B]

I didn't say he wasn't 😉 However you claim was that a Editor In Chief was required to Retcon the Beyonder, that isn't the case since EngleHart has said that he was going to retcon the Beyonder into having a link to the Beyonders, and he wasn't editor in chief, however a Editor (Englehart never gives a name) wanted the Beyonder removed from marvel cosmetology, and Englehart did this but in the way that he saw fit, It fits perfectly with what you are discussing further on Writer (job) = Toaa

There ya go, as I stated in this same page.

It was DeFalco (Marvel's Editor-in chief after Shooter) that retconned Beyonder.

The ONLY authoritative power able to do so. [/B]

It wasn't DeFalco since he wasn't the writer of the Story I'm not fully aware of the Editor does he supervise every single Comic going into the print, but it was still Englehart that was writing and hence it was him that retconned the Beyonder and again he was going to retcon the Beyonder, and yes in some way you are right it was the Editor however there are numerous Editors within Marvel and nowhere did I find a reference to it being the Editor in Chief authorizing the retcon, which according to you would be the only one to authorize such a change.

Originally posted by Erik-Lensherr

Too bad that was only how the Fantastic Four percieved him :

"What you see is what I am to you”
..................................................................................................

Precisely, he's their Comic Book artist. 🙂

Or better yet,

WHY would the FF be able to conceive that this "god" actually draws pictures,
that will be published in REAL World comic books?

How do the FF know that there's a Comic book in the REAL World.
of the Silver Surfer, or the Black Panther? (as Toaa/god is depicted working on them)

Originally posted by Erik-Lensherr

„That’s what my creations do. They try to find humanity in God”

"They FIND the humanity in God"
(which is true, since this "god" obviously represents real Human beings)

...............................................................................................................

You tried to come out your face in WC Phoenix mini gauntlet thread,
trying to throw around debating lectures ... wait, 😆

Now I'll give you some advice in your own words,
don't think cause you post over-sized scans, you'l be able to say to yourself,

Originally posted by Erik-Lensherr

"hey,
if somebody enters the thread
they will see my" (OVER-Sized) "scans and think I'm right."
This probably works on the naive ones,
but respectfull debaters actually read most of the discussion
in order to make an opinion, so your strategy isn't exactly a good one.

You got jokes, coming from the dude that got CAUGHT Fabricating scans,
in order to try and seduce "naives ones" into believing the Ultraverse wasn't Canon.

Nice try.

As for your over-sized scan,
here's an over-sized scan in reply:

AGAIN!

WHAT are the FF doing perceiving Real World occurrences?

Like this "god" working on REAL World titles such as Silver Surfer and Black Panther,
Real World titles that will obviously pertain to the Real World?

Originally posted by Erik-Lensherr

I'm not calling you an idiot,
I'm arguing the angle in which you are approaching this debates
(using the writers and editors) idiotic. There's a difference.

Wasn't God seen in Spider-Man recently too?

I would say Thanos as much as I hate to admit it, Beyonder was only ever mutiversal anyways.

Originally posted by The Great Galen
I would say Thanos as much as I hate to admit it, Beyonder was only ever mutiversal anyways.