School shooting at Northern Illinois University

Originally posted by dadudemon
He meant the right to bare arms I think. The supreme court will not specifically define it so right now, that means you can own a gun.

If your country does not have school shootings...then maybe would should try it. Of course, that would greatly increase illegal arms dealing..............................................................................I DON"T KNOW WHAT THE BEST SOLUTION IS!!!!!!!!

I think organized crime would be what increased illegal arms dealing, not school shootings. Here we have the occasional stabbing, it usually leads to one person being injured or dying, never dozens of people dying and more being injured.

Originally posted by chillmeistergen
I think organized crime would be what increased illegal arms dealing, not school shootings. Here we have the occasional stabbing, it usually leads to one person being injured or dying, never dozens of people dying and more being injured.

Deaths as a function of violent crimes is your measurement of success, right?

What about violent crimes period? Did they decrease in the UK or increase in the UK when guns were illegalized?

Edit- I could look that up.....but you could probably find it faster.

Decreased.

Originally posted by chillmeistergen
Decreased.

Do you have a source for that?

I would love to support the illegalization of guns IF I had concrete evidence that it not only prevented deaths...but also lead to the decrease in violent crimes over all.

I learnt about it in sociology, I'll have a look for an online source and post it later.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Do you have a source for that?

I would love to support the illegalization of guns IF I had concrete evidence that it not only prevented deaths...but also lead to the decrease in violent crimes over all.

It makes sense though, you might be mad but if you can just buy a gun it makes it easier to do crazy stuff. Its like the fact that you can just buy a gun gives you an option that was not there initially.

I can't find any statistics which reach as far back as 1996 to present, I have however found recent statistics highlighting a recent decrease in gun crime. http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/crime-victims/reducing-crime/gun-crime/

Also take not of this

the overall level of gun crime in England and Wales is very low – less than 0.5% of all crime recorded by the police.

Originally posted by chillmeistergen
I stay firm in my belief that it's the gun policy in the U.S that's the problem. Without a gun you can't shoot up a school full of people, I'm sure people's replies are going to be that they'd find some other way, though to be honest, where else in the world has so many school killing sprees? I can't think of one other country.

It's not the policy. It's the people.

Policies/laws are objective themselves and are called good or bad depending on how well the people under said jurisdiction handle that law.

Jim Crow, for example, was an unwritten doctrine that would be objectively considered immoral but it was "good" to the white majority of the U.S. in their mindset at the time (only meant to be used in context; not a race rant).

People who want guns will get their hands on guns on way or another, similar to bootleg cable. It's illegal but oh well?

I'm not sure how rare school shootings really are though. In Memphis, TN the schools have a kid caught with a gun every other week and a shooting here and there (normally there is not more than one target because they have one person in mind, not just a random spree).

Certain things are publicized, some are not. Stop letting the media guide how you understand these things.

Originally posted by chillmeistergen
I can't find any statistics which reach as far back as 1996 to present, I have however found recent statistics highlighting a recent decrease in gun crime. http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/crime-victims/reducing-crime/gun-crime/

Also take not of this That's certainly a contrast to the U.S percentage.

Thanks for the info.

I now have a little more time to do some research.

It doesn't look good, though.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article568214.ece

"A UNITED Nations report has labelled Scotland the most violent country in the developed world, with people three times more likely to be assaulted than in America."

This one doesn't help either.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2006/may/28/ukcrime.immigrationpolicy

"In 1980, the first full year of the last Tory government, police in England and Wales recorded 4,390 'woundings or other acts endangering life'. In 1997...the figure was 12,531. In 2004-5 it reached 19,425, nearly four times the level 20 years earlier. Convictions rose, but they did not keep pace. In 1980, 1,277 people were found guilty of life-threatening attacks, 29 per cent of the recorded total. In 1997, 1,864 were convicted - 14.8 per cent of perpetrators. In 2004-5 the number convicted was just 1,897, despite the increase in crimes - a rate of only 9.7 per cent."

Also, I read about a violent crime reduction act in 2006...something done to help curb the crime problems faced in the UK. The information you posted is almost misleading. (Not that you did that on purpose.)

Your country does not help the position that guns should be made illegal.

However, I can see that maybe your country's crime is so bad even without guns because population density is much greater in the UK than in the US...however, I am no criminologist.

I need more data.

Edit-For people like me who are on the fence about the subject still...a few studies about other countries without guns would help sway my potential vote.

What has to be remembered though, is that violent crime is inclusive of an awful lot of different kinds of crime. There's GBH, ABH, domestic violence, manslaughter, murder etc. By no means do these always involve guns. I think you have to look at firearm statistics in particular to fully gauge a contrast between our two countries.

Originally posted by chillmeistergen
What has to be remembered though, is that violent crime is inclusive of an awful lot of different kinds of crime. There's GBH, ABH, domestic violence, manslaughter, murder etc. By no means do these always involve guns. I think you have to look at firearm statistics in particular to fully gauge a contrast between our two countries.

I disagree. Violent crimes have to be looked at, per capita, before and after the illegalization of firearms to truly gage the law's effectiveness.

I have heard the argument that guns actually prevent violent crimes by a small margin and that is why we should keep guns legalized.

The UK MAY prove that statement...however that is an immature conclusion on my part.

Like I said, I need more data.

Isn't AC really into this? I am sure he could provide nice swaying evidence for me.

Originally posted by dadudemon
I disagree. Violent crimes have to be looked at, per capita, before and after the illegalization of firearms to truly gage the law's effectiveness.

I have heard the argument that guns actually prevent violent crimes by a small margin and that is why we should keep guns legalized.

They UK MAY prove that statement...however that is an immature conclusion on my part.

Like I said, I need more data.

Isn't AC really into this? I am sure he could provide nice swaying evidence for me.

There's a lot more influences and causes that change over time though, not just whether people have guns or not.

Originally posted by chillmeistergen
There's a lot more influences and causes that change over time though, not just whether people have guns or not.

I agree whole heartedly with that type of logic, but that will not be what makes a major change in America on gun control.

If that type of logic were employed and adhered to, Marijuana would be legal in the US and we would have quite a few LESS* "in the system".

*People AND money.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Thanks for the info.

I now have a little more time to do some research.

It doesn't look good, though.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article568214.ece

"A UNITED Nations report has labelled Scotland the most violent country in the developed world, with people three times more likely to be assaulted than in America."

This one doesn't help either.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2006/may/28/ukcrime.immigrationpolicy

"In 1980, the first full year of the last Tory government, police in England and Wales recorded 4,390 'woundings or other acts endangering life'. In 1997...the figure was 12,531. In 2004-5 it reached 19,425, nearly four times the level 20 years earlier. Convictions rose, but they did not keep pace. In 1980, 1,277 people were found guilty of life-threatening attacks, 29 per cent of the recorded total. In 1997, 1,864 were convicted - 14.8 per cent of perpetrators. In 2004-5 the number convicted was just 1,897, despite the increase in crimes - a rate of only 9.7 per cent."

Also, I read about a violent crime reduction act in 2006...something done to help curb the crime problems faced in the UK. The information you posted is almost misleading. (Not that you did that on purpose.)

Your country does not help the position that guns should be made illegal.

However, I can see that maybe your country's crime is so bad even without guns because population density is much greater in the UK than in the US...however, I am no criminologist.

I need more data.

Edit-For people like me who are on the fence about the subject still...a few studies about other countries without guns would help sway my potential vote.

Yeah mate Glasgow has or had a highier murder rate than New York, but its mainly knife crime. I mean the thing is as far as im concerned getting rid of guns dont stop people commiting crime but it may make crime worse because its much easier to kill people.....or rob a bank etc.

Originally posted by Lana
Heard about this one on the news a few minutes ago (NIU is about 2 hours from where I live)...

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/chi-niu-gunman_webfeb15,0,1760508.story

(only news article I've found so far)

As it just happened there's not a huge amount about it yet, but last I heard on the TV they believe there might be 3 people dead, 3 injured. That's not confirmed, though.

Kinda scary to think, though, if things had gone the way I'd intended, I'd actually be there right now with this all going on.

Originally posted by dadudemon
He meant the right to bare arms I think. The supreme court will not specifically define it so right now, that means you can own a gun.

If your country does not have school shootings...then maybe would should try it. Of course, that would greatly increase illegal arms dealing..............................................................................I DON"T KNOW WHAT THE BEST SOLUTION IS!!!!!!!!

Correct,

How often do school shootings really happen I think its just that its kids getting shot. What about all the people who are killed by guns daily. I think people are so outraged by it because its kids being killed. I can think of four school shootings, Columbine, VT, Northern Illinois, I believe one in Minnesota. I'm sure theres more but these are the ones that were all over the media for weeks. I am not saying that outlawing guns wouldn't work I just don't think it's a possible solution. I mean really do you have any idea how many rednecks live in the country....

Wait, so non-gun related violent crimes count towards gun-related violence?

"A UNITED Nations report has labelled Scotland the most violent country in the developed world, with people three times more likely to be assaulted than in America."

you could probably narrow that down...to Glasgow...although in all my visits there i've never even seen a single violent incident...bar one...which was started by me

I absolutely love Glasgow.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Yeah mate Glasgow has or had a highier murder rate than New York, but its mainly knife crime. I mean the thing is as far as im concerned getting rid of guns dont stop people commiting crime but it may make crime worse because its much easier to kill people.....or rob a bank etc.

"knife crime"? Holy shit, you guys don't mess around even without guns. Remind me to hold off on the smart ass comments when I visit the UK.