Darth Maul vs Kas'im

Originally posted by MythLord
Or maybe, just maybe, Bane's a better duelist than Kas'im is in a combative sense due to his superior strength in the Force that Kas'im's technical skill couldn't overcome?

He won because of a better connection to the force, not because he was more skilled.

That's not the point its the fact for all of Kas'im's technical skill he couldn't come up with a new sequence or moveset to win, and he died a failure who had to cheat and still lost

Yeah, he should have had a sense of fair play and instead invented a move on the spot that's more effective than the techniques he spent decades creating to maximise effectiveness, to defeat an opponents who's superior to him in strength, power and speed and knows all he can do while getting reamed in an enclosed space. Instead of just taking advantage of a weakness he knew he could easily exploit.

So I'm guessing that you still have no excuse that for someone whose "mastered every aspect of lightsaber combat" he couldn't actually come through with his supposed mastery? Lmao, keep making excuses 👆

Originally posted by carthage
He won because of a better connection to the force, not because he was more skilled.

That's not the point its the fact for all of Kas'im's technical skill he couldn't come up with a new sequence or moveset to win, and he died a failure who had to cheat and still lost

Indeed, so that means, *gasps*, innate talent > technical skill? It's not like that's a running theme in Star Wars or anything...

Kas'im did apply a new sequence, he just didn't invent one on the spot with a bloodlusted Bane breathing down his neck. That's like saying Mace Windu sucks as a duelist because he didn't magically invent a new sequence to deal with Sora Bulq or Asajj Ventress on the spot but had to resort to, *gasps again*, Vaapad. So yeah, take your pathetic double standards elsewhere.

Originally posted by carthage
That's not the point its the fact for all of Kas'im's technical skill he couldn't come up with a new sequence or moveset to win, and he died a failure who had to cheat and still lost

Well as far as dueling goes, Kasim was winning, and didn't even truly loose a contest of Force powers. He quickly and instinctively nullified bane's wave, and only died as a result of the environment they were in. I can't see Maul surviving the sort of collateral damage caused By Bane's power and I certainly don't see him producing it. So how is Kasim's death relevant to Maul? so far no one's anyone answering that question. The Novel literally spells out how Bane overcame the technical gap - we even have Kasim emphasizing power over technicality. Do you think Anakin is more technically skilled than Dooku? Someone who's dedicated a little more than 7 decades to master the art of saber combat?

What a about the battle master Cin Drallig - who's presumably learned in every fighting form - and has even mastered Juyo... something that was deliberately restricted from Anakin's practice (Jedi Path) by the blade master himself. Surely if Cin was so skilled and refined, he should have been able to surprise Anakin with the very form he forbade him to learn. But he didn't. And was swatted asunder in a single strike. Is he also a "failure" as someone who had already constrained Anakin's skills, but lost without a fight? What about Dooku being disarmed by Savage, the latter of whom only getting a few weeks training, most of that coming from himself?

When you compare the two, Kasim starts to look less like a failure, don't you think?

Originally posted by Ziggystardust
There is not a sound interpretation that can rationalize a "clowning" here. Unless you think Maul wanted to get slapped in the face and dropped from a 5 story height.

Moving on.

And let's go back full circle. How does this make him better than Kasim? Secondly, standing a chance is exactly what Qui Gon did. And given the ludicrous circumstances that Obi Wan reclaimed, there is certainly room for most everybody to have "a chance" against Maul.

Maul appeared able to orchestrate the fight in a no-holds-barred struggle to the death. Supple and quick, he fought with a confidence and ease that threatened to eclipse the skills of the two Jedi.

- Star Wars Fact File 001

Though of course as objectively one of the most skilled and deadly Sith warriors in galactic history, Kas'im really has no advantage here anyway.

And no, he didn't stand a chance, of winning. Or rather Maul would beat him every time, 10/10, as he would Kas'im. Why? Well first of all he well exceeds Kas'im in training, who was taught by a "great Sith Lord" of the Ruusan-era and essentially came to represent the Sith lightsaber talent of that era par excellence. Supposedly perfecting all known saber techniques and inventing hundreds of his own.

Maul on the other hand is essentially his analogue, except after 1,000 years of the Banite Sith refining and improving their lightsaber techniques, studying at the feet of the perhaps the greatest Banite lightsaber combatant ever, to become one of the most highly trained Sith in the Order's history:

He was one of the most highly trained Sith in the history of the order.

Source : Star Wars: Fact Files #01

Darth Maul is one of the most dangerous and highly trained Sith in the history of the Order.

Source : Star Wars / Encyclopedia Databank

One of the deadliest, most efficiently trained Sith in the Order's history, Darth Maul's tattooed face is as symbolic of his utter devotion to the dark side.

Source : Ultimate Star Wars

Maul was described by Sidious as his "myrmidon", a "blazing lightsaber aimed directly at the hear of the Jedi Order", and a "perfect Sith weapon", and with the ultimate goal of the Banite Sith being the eradication of its Order, this would essentially make him an embodiment of its martial ability par excellence, just like Kas'im. Yet again in the contexts of a significantly more advanced Order, one where an individual like Venamis was regarded as capable of doing well in the Bane era, but entirely out of his depth in the current age. Whereas Maul by Palpatine's appraisal is anything but.

In fact multiple sources indicate that Palpatine regarded Maul as a true apprentice and a potential successor. With George Lucas stating Maul was never intended to die, and Sidious favouring him as a right hand over Mother Talzin. Point being? Not only does he possess better training than Kas'im, but a greater level of innate talent as well. He's objectively superior, and altogether possess a level of talent that well exceeds Kas'im's pay-packet. 👆

Originally posted by Ziggystardust
If you're not going to represent my argument properly, how about not addressing it at all, yeah? And you might want to tell me what aspect of 'lightsaber combat' has been mastered or who casts judgement on his aptitude?

Hahah! Fine then.

Kenobi is stated to have mastered lightsaber combat by the out of universe source Fact File.

He is continuously praised as an extreme talent by Yoda.

Jinn views the young apprentice as a skilled duelist.

Furthermore Kenobi is considered the best of the Padawans of his day, which would include legendary lightsaber virtuous Soara Antana(whose Lightsaber skills set her apart even as a child) and Siri Tachi the "best fighter in the temple" during her youth.

Is it the saber-to-saber combat side considered too outdated to be popularized? Or is it the type of combat focused on contemporary weapons, like blasters? I'm thinking the latter considering the humiliation Dooku (an actual duelist) gave his older and more experienced self. Kudos for not getting slaughtered by the droids on Geonosis (spelling).

You do understand Dooku knew Ataru inside and out right? A huge advantage would be given to him because of this no?

First point, you're going have to tell me who that is. Second, I imagine this isn't a planet of trained Force sensitives we're talking about... right.

Ona Norbis, what's more impressive is she immediately rendered Jinn powerless while Kenobi completely outwitted her and bested her despite the fact that she eas using a lethal lightwhip

He surpassed physical blurs alongside two masters? It helps me if your points are more coherent. But if you don't want me to expose their superficial nature , then by all means continue an typing.

Go ahead, I am oh so terribly bored.

Otherwise, I Imagine we have a generic speed feat that has been matched by novices. Not that it's the be-all-end-all of combat either. If the TPM novel is to be trusted, Obi Wan was faster than Qui-gon, but not as skilled.

So basically, no one special.

If you're an imbecile, then yeah, why not?

Originally posted by Ziggystardust
Well as far as dueling goes, Kasim was winning, and didn't even truly loose a contest of Force powers. He quickly and instinctively nullified bane's wave, and only died as a result of the environment they were in. I can't see Maul surviving the sort of collateral damage caused By Bane's power and I certainly don't see him producing it. So how is Kasim's death relevant to Maul? so far no one's anyone answering that question. The Novel literally spells out how Bane overcame the technical gap - we even have Kasim emphasizing power over technicality. Do you think Anakin is more technically skilled than Dooku? Someone who's dedicated a little more than 7 decades to master the art of saber combat?

What a about the battle master Cin Drallig - who's presumably learned in every fighting form - and has even mastered Juyo... something that was deliberately restricted from Anakin's practice (Jedi Path) by the blade master himself. Surely if Cin was so skilled and refined, he should have been able to surprise Anakin with the very form he forbade him to learn. But he didn't. And was swatted asunder in a single strike. Is he also a "failure" as someone who had already constrained Anakin's skills, but lost without a fight? What about Dooku being disarmed by Savage, the latter of whom only getting a few weeks training, most of that coming from himself?

When you compare the two, Kasim starts to look less like a failure, don't you think?

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Moving on. Well first of all it makes short work Kas'im being praised by Bane has "perhaps the greatest duelist ever", considering Jinn was regarded as one of the greatest Jedi the Order had ever produced, over its 25,000 year history. Yet Maul well exceeded his talents:

Maul appeared able to orchestrate the fight in a no-holds-barred struggle to the death. Supple and quick, he fought with a confidence and ease that threatened to eclipse the skills of the two Jedi.

- Star Wars Fact File 001

This doesn't make short work of anything. Jinn's accolade holds no weight next to 90% of anyone we talk about. Neither does Mauls. These "one of the greatest" quotes mean nothing as a comparison to a duelist on Kas'im's level.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Though of course as objectively one of the most skilled and deadly Sith warriors in galactic history, Kas'im really has no advantage here anyway.

This doesn't mean that at all.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Well first of all he well exceeds Kas'im in training, who was taught by a "great Sith Lord" of the Ruusan-era and essentially came to represent the Sith lightsaber talent of that era par excellence. Supposedly perfecting all known saber techniques and inventing hundreds of his own.

Maul on the other hand is essentially his analogue, except after 1,000 years of the Banite Sith refining and improving their lightsaber techniques, studying at the feet of the perhaps the greatest Banite lightsaber combatant ever, to become one of the most highly trained Sith in the Order's history:

He was one of the most highly trained Sith in the history of the order.

Source : Star Wars: Fact Files #01

Darth Maul is one of the most dangerous and highly trained Sith in the history of the Order.

Source : Star Wars / Encyclopedia Databank

One of the deadliest, most efficiently trained Sith in the Order's history, Darth Maul's tattooed face is as symbolic of his utter devotion to the dark side.

Source : Ultimate Star Wars

Neat. You know who else Maul exceeds in training? Obi-Wan Kenobi.

Considering Maul apparently had so much better training than Kas'im yet failed to master as many forms as him, kek. Kas'im had decades more training than he did anyway. And that's decades more training after mastering all lightsaber forms, something Maul never did, spent entirely on perfecting every move of every form for every style.

but no mauls one of the best in history obviously hes better hurr duur.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Maul was described by Sidious as his "myrmidon", a "blazing lightsaber aimed directly at the hear of the Jedi Order", and a "perfect Sith weapon", and with the ultimate goal of the Banite Sith being the eradication of its Order, this would essentially make him an embodiment of its martial ability par excellence, just like Kas'im.

Yeah but Kas'im was called "Darkness's Darkest Dark Knight", "Literally a black hole with a face" and "a weapon to surpass Metal Gear". Hyperbole checkmate. excellent

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Yet again in the contexts of a significantly more advanced Order, one where an individual like Venamis was regarded as capable of doing well in the Bane era, but entirely out of his depth in the current age. Whereas Maul by Palpatine's appraisal is anything but.

In fact multiple sources indicate that Palpatine regarded Maul as a true apprentice and a potential successor. With George Lucas stating Maul was never intended to die, and Sidious favouring him as a right hand over Mother Talzin. Point being? Not only does he possess better training than Kas'im, but a greater level of innate talent as well. He's objectively superior, and altogether possess a level of talent that well exceeds Kas'im's pay-packet. 👆

Literally the only thing you posted in this entire thing is a bunch of quotes about Maul being one of the best evar. Absolutely worthless garbage for comparing combatants on this level. 0/10 waste of time 👇

Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
Furthermore Kenobi is considered the best of the Padawans of his day, which would include legendary lightsaber virtuous Soara Antana(whose Lightsaber skills set her apart even as a child) and Siri Tachi the "best fighter in the temple" during her youth.

how was obi-wan better than siri if siri was the best tho

Later she admits he is her better this is prior to their kissy face stuff so i take it pretty serious

Originally posted by Ziggystardust
Which is nothing other than a poor attempt at lowballing. At least in the context of PoD, the principles of lightsaber combat, and what makes a master duelist are nicely defined. I don't think it needs repeating. POD Bane was winning through his superior force connection, something he has in leagues above the Maul. And when it comes to Kasim and Maul, bane is more powerful than either.

Yeah, but the Rule of One, per Bane's own admission, were weak. Therefore, he decided they needed to be destroyed. So, being a master duelist and what makes one in the context of PoD means shit, tbh. And the fact that PoD Bane was winning by his superior Force connection also means shit, considering that at this point, Maul is his superior in terms of power. Yeah, PoD Bane isn't more powerful than TCW Maul.

"You're training is complete, they won't stand a chance against you". Warning - quote accuracy. Regardless of semantics, the meaning is correct. So you are wrong as per Sidious' own words. Not that Maul was ever trained as a proper 'sith' given that he can barely fend off sparkly lightning bolts, and wasn't worthy of producing them. Furthermore, as his training was supposedly complete, it's logical to assume sidious wouldn't teach him anything more than the limited set of tasks he's been bread for. Maul is really more of a dark jedi, than a 'true sith'. A tool to be used and then disposed of.

Yeah, Bane completing his training totally compares to Maul, considering he'd been training under the most powerful Sith Lord of all time since he was a child. 🙄 Completed training in the context of PoD << Maul's actual completed training under Sidious.

It has never been stated that Maul wasn't trained as a proper Sith or that he was intended to die or be replaced anytime soon. And I wouldn't call taking on two Jedi simultaneously and being tasked to kill/capture the Queen of Naboo as exactly trivial or limited.

It was certainly a mistake on Mauls part, rather than some miraculous godsend for the Jedi learner. But it really doesn't look good. Either he chose not to react to Kenobi, or simply hadn't the ability to. You can pick one, but either option musters his skill with a stinking log. From an out-of-universe perspective, it's slapstick writing. But I put it down to the philosophy of Juyo. And his poor defense has creeped up more than one time since.

Yeah, but that's still not the point. He was pushing both Jedi fighting together, and he defeated each of them individually. So whatever happened afterwards is irrelevant. TPM Maul > TPM Jinn and Kenobi together, and that only means TCW is even farther in terms of skill and power.

Bring forth the quote, the source's name and I will examine it from there. Logically, halving one's midi-chlorian count would make one weaker. So I can't see how a power increase is possible.

Provided my MythLord in another thread:

"Maul had grown more powerful since the last time he’d been in Sidious’s presence, before the Neimoidian invasion of Naboo had turned disastrous and Obi-Wan had bested him inside the Theed power core. His hermitage on Lotho Minor, his lessons on Unbara, his restoration by Mother Talzin, and his training of Savage had all strengthened him, made him a more worthy vessel for the dark side to fill with its power."

- Shadow Conspiracy

The relationship between Maul and Kenobi is capricious. Regardless, Kenobi is probably better. He likely grew at faster rate than Maul during the time of, and after TCW. And it makes perfect sense, Maul was one of the only beings in the PT to be trained for actual combat with live opponents. You can't say the same for Kenobi, who was travelling around acting as some sort of 'galactic sherif' until the clone wars. Maul then looses potential via bisection. Capping his fantasies short. He admits he can't beat Vader in his 50's while Kenobi is nigh-stalemating him.

As per the quote provided up there, he doesn't get weaker, he gets stronger. And at least as of season 5 of TCW, Kenobi is certainly not his better. Whenever they duel Kenobi seems outclassed and always running for it or on the defensive. And Kenobi wasn't nigh-stalemating Vader. Their duel in ANH is ambiguous and unclear at best, and it ends up with Kenobi being turned into a pile of clothes.

And how are you measuring duelists from different eras? There aren't any comparisons between Kasim or Mace Windu, so claiming one is better than the other is just baseless speculation. You are right, Kasim was the top-dog of his era, as was Mace. The difference being that Mace lives in an era that doesn't expect saber-to-saber confrontations - or really any confrontation at all. The routine practice for Jedi of that time, was one of diplomatic character.

Seriously? You're saying there's nothing to suggest that the guy who gave Sidious a run for his money and was stated to be above every other PT Jedi barring Yoda has nothing going for him against Kas'im, a guy from an era of mediocre Sith who has zero feats to his name?

The fact that the PT doesn't expect saber to saber confrontations means shit, considering how Kenobi and Jinn did against Maul, how a lot of other Jedi perform against Grievous or Ventress during the war, and how Mace and Yoda performed against the most powerful Sith Lord of all time.

TPM, SoD, and Rebels Maul all beat Kas'im.