Originally posted by Da Pittman
So I guess that both of you are saying that God only cares about the people in modern cities with open lines of communication, so if you are on a small island and never heard of Christ then you are F’ed up and doom to go to hell. Sounds like a so very loving god to me. So what about all the people that were born before Christ and all the people that the word of him haven’t reached during his life which was about 99% of the worlds population.
Actually, I'm saying a fair bit more than that.
I'm saying that God only cares about those whom He chooses to care about. Given that we are His creation and thus His property, it is His absolute right to regard us as He pleases.
"What then are we to say? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! For He says to Moses, 'I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.' So it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God who shows mercy." [Romans 9:14-16/NRSV]
The Bible makes it crystal clear that only a minority will ever come to faith in Christ and be saved. Even of those who hear about Jesus at length, only a few will believe. The gospel isn't about a Christian's love for God; it's about God's love for the soon-to-be Christian [1 John 4:10].
Originally posted by Tim Rout
Actually, I'm saying a fair bit more than that.I'm saying that God only cares about those whom He chooses to care about. Given that we are His creation and thus His property, it is His absolute right to regard us as He pleases.
"What then are we to say? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! For He says to Moses, 'I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.' So it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God who shows mercy." [Romans 9:14-16/NRSV]
The Bible makes it crystal clear that only a minority will ever come to faith in Christ and be saved. Even of those who hear about Jesus at length, only a few will believe. The gospel isn't about a Christian's love for God; it's about God's love for the soon-to-be Christian [1 John 4:10].
Yes, the god of the bible is a war god. 😉
Originally posted by Tim RoutSo all of those that would truly believe and love Christ with all their heart and soul but never have been exposed or hear of him would be doomed to an eternity of damnation just because of where they lived? As I have said before if the god of the Bible does truly exist then he is the most vindictive and cold hearted bastard that has ever existed and the idea that God is the essence of love is laughable to say the least.
Actually, I'm saying a fair bit more than that.I'm saying that God only cares about those whom He chooses to care about. Given that we are His creation and thus His property, it is His absolute right to regard us as He pleases.
"What then are we to say? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! For He says to Moses, 'I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.' So it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God who shows mercy." [Romans 9:14-16/NRSV]
The Bible makes it crystal clear that only a minority will ever come to faith in Christ and be saved. Even of those who hear about Jesus at length, only a few will believe. The gospel isn't about a Christian's love for God; it's about God's love for the soon-to-be Christian [1 John 4:10].
Originally posted by Da Pittman
So all of those that would truly believe and love Christ with all their heart and soul but never have been exposed or hear of him would be doomed to an eternity of damnation just because of where they lived? As I have said before if the god of the Bible does truly exist then he is the most vindictive and cold hearted bastard that has ever existed and the idea that God is the essence of love is laughable to say the least.
I wonder if Tim Rout is one of those few people who will make it into heaven or one of the multitudes that think they are one of the few?
Originally posted by Da Pittman
So you are saying if you are a good person you don't need to believe in Christ even if you know who and what he is?
* it is inside the premise - "if Christianity never reached you"... so there's no contradiction at all... please take a look at the premise on the very first post... i just answered it... 😉
Originally posted by Tim Rout
Actually, I'm saying a fair bit more than that.I'm saying that God only cares about those whom He chooses to care about. Given that we are His creation and thus His property, it is His absolute right to regard us as He pleases.
"What then are we to say? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! For He says to Moses, 'I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.' So it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God who shows mercy." [Romans 9:14-16/NRSV]
The Bible makes it crystal clear that only a minority will ever come to faith in Christ and be saved. Even of those who hear about Jesus at length, only a few will believe. The gospel isn't about a Christian's love for God; it's about God's love for the soon-to-be Christian [1 John 4:10].
* don't spread Biblical lies, read the context first... to counter your weird beliefs, just these:
"I exhort therefore, first of all, that supplications, prayers, intercessions, thanksgivings, be made for all men;
For kings and all that are in high place; that we may lead a tranquil and quiet life in all godliness and gravity.
This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
Who would have all men to be saved, and come to the knowledge of the truth."
I Timothy 2:1-4
"For to this end we labor and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of them that believe."
I Timothy 4:10
Originally posted by peejayd
* don't spread Biblical lies, read the context first... to counter your weird beliefs, just these:"I exhort therefore, first of all, that supplications, prayers, intercessions, thanksgivings, be made for all men;
For kings and all that are in high place; that we may lead a tranquil and quiet life in all godliness and gravity.
This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
Who would have all men to be saved, and come to the knowledge of the truth."
I Timothy 2:1-4"For to this end we labor and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of them that believe."
I Timothy 4:10
So, if Christianity is the absolute truth, then why do you two disagree? Sense you are both born again and filled with the holly spirit, shouldn't the absolute word of god be the same for both of you?
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
So, if Christianity is the absolute truth, then why do you two disagree? Sense you are both born again and filled with the holly spirit, shouldn't the absolute word of god be the same for both of you?
An excellent point.
Actually, while I don't pretend to know the totality of our friend's theological convictions, and as strongly opposed as we might seem to be, the issue at hand is not essential to the core of Christian doctrine. That is to say, a person may hold that Jesus died to make salvation available to absolutely everyone (as my friend suggests), or that Jesus died to make salvation available to a select group (as I propose), and still be an authentic, born again disciple of the Lord.
Christian theologians sometimes refer to this particular debate as the "atonement conundrum". How is it that well meaning, Bible believing Christians can disagree on this and many other issues of theological interest? Well, assuming we limit the debate to those who fall within a conservative evangelical sphere, you will find that our disagreements fall beyond the core of essential Christian doctrine.
For example, the Bible makes it undeniably clear that the shed blood of Jesus Christ was offered in payment for people's sins [1 John 2:2]. All born again Christians must believe this, or they aren't born again Christians. But just because the Bible teaches something clearly, does not mean it provides exhaustive details about it. Thus theologians are left to debate and discuss the possibilities. In this case, there are two possibilities each with its own merits.
First, it is possible that God responds to anyone who wants to become a follower of Jesus. Thus, the person goes first, and God reacts by saving him.
Second, it is possible that the person responds to the conviction and prompting of the Holy Spirit, and is therefore supernaturally urged to become a follower of Jesus. Thus, God goes first, and the person responds in faith.
It seems my friend holds the former view, while I hold the latter. There are a few million Christians on either side of the conversation whose perspectives reflect either option. There are also evangelicals who try to synthesize a third option -- often a hybrid of the two positions. My friend and I could argue this thing from now until Jesus comes, and we'd never solve it. There is simply insufficient data in Scripture to provide a definitive answer. But thankfully, it doesn't matter.
I have mentioned in the past that there are only five essential doctrines that a person must believe in order to be saved. These are:
1. The doctrine of Scripture
2. The doctrine of God
3. The doctrine of humanity
4. The doctrine of sin
5. The doctrine of salvation
Fortunately, the "atonement conundrum" falls outside the purview of these core doctrines, and thus Christians are free to disagree about them. That said, the fault lies with the inadequacy of human understanding, and not with the Bible. The Bible wasn't engineered to answer every question a person might dream up. The Bible was engineered to bring people to faith in Christ -- and it performs this task with unparalleled proficiency.
Originally posted by peejaydThat could also mean that it never reached your heart that they people that delivered the message got it wrong or delivered it incorrectly as just with you and Tim who are both in the same faith but have totally different messages. How would a non-believer ever be convinced or converted if its own followers don’t even know the message of Christ? This would be the same if I lived on an island.
* it is inside the premise - "if Christianity never reached you"... so there's no contradiction at all... please take a look at the premise on the very first post... i just answered it... 😉
Originally posted by Da Pittman
That could also mean that it never reached your heart that they people that delivered the message got it wrong or delivered it incorrectly as just with you and Tim who are both in the same faith but have totally different messages. How would a non-believer ever be convinced or converted if its own followers don’t even know the message of Christ? This would be the same if I lived on an island.
You know...while it might not have been your intention to do so, you also raise another valid issue. I do not know the theological convictions or spiritual condition of other contributors who identify themselves as Christians. Like you, I must evaluate their beliefs based on the limited words they choose to share. But assuming for a moment that my friend and I are both authentic Christians, your above observation serves as an important wake up call for me -- and I suspect for every Christian on this forum. When disciples of Christ have a legitimate theological disagreement, there is nothing wrong with hammering out the details (with all due love and respect, of course). But such debates should take place behind closed doors. Placing our disputes out here for all to see can only leave our audience scratching their heads and pondering the very thought you propose; how can anyone ever become convinced of the Bible's message when Christians can't seem to agree on what that message is?
As a theologian, I see great benefit to the debates and discussions Christians share on various doctrinal issues. Any system that does not permit questions is a system doomed to ultimate implosion. However, when Christians take the debate into a public forum, and especially when they start slinging dirt at one another, this can result in nothing but dishonor to the name of Christ. Consequently, unless I see someone grossly misquoting or misrepresenting Scripture, I think I will bite my tongue and save it for a PM. Please don't think me evasive.
Originally posted by Tim Rout
An excellent point.Actually, while I don't pretend to know the totality of our friend's theological convictions, and as strongly opposed as we might seem to be, the issue at hand is not essential to the core of Christian doctrine. That is to say, a person may hold that Jesus died to make salvation available to absolutely everyone (as my friend suggests), or that Jesus died to make salvation available to a select group (as I propose), and still be an authentic, born again disciple of the Lord.
Christian theologians sometimes refer to this particular debate as the "atonement conundrum". How is it that well meaning, Bible believing Christians can disagree on this and many other issues of theological interest? Well, assuming we limit the debate to those who fall within a conservative evangelical sphere, you will find that our disagreements fall beyond the core of essential Christian doctrine.
For example, the Bible makes it undeniably clear that the shed blood of Jesus Christ was offered in payment for people's sins [1 John 2:2]. All born again Christians must believe this, or they aren't born again Christians. But just because the Bible teaches something clearly, does not mean it provides exhaustive details about it. Thus theologians are left to debate and discuss the possibilities. In this case, there are two possibilities each with its own merits.
First, it is possible that God responds to anyone who wants to become a follower of Jesus. Thus, the person goes first, and God reacts by saving him.
Second, it is possible that the person responds to the conviction and prompting of the Holy Spirit, and is therefore supernaturally urged to become a follower of Jesus. Thus, God goes first, and the person responds in faith.
It seems my friend holds the former view, while I hold the latter. There are a few million Christians on either side of the conversation whose perspectives reflect either option. There are also evangelicals who try to synthesize a third option -- often a hybrid of the two positions. My friend and I could argue this thing from now until Jesus comes, and we'd never solve it. There is simply insufficient data in Scripture to provide a definitive answer. But thankfully, it doesn't matter.
I have mentioned in the past that there are only five essential doctrines that a person must believe in order to be saved. These are:
1. The doctrine of Scripture
2. The doctrine of God
3. The doctrine of humanity
4. The doctrine of sin
5. The doctrine of salvationFortunately, the "atonement conundrum" falls outside the purview of these core doctrines, and thus Christians are free to disagree about them. That said, the fault lies with the inadequacy of human understanding, and not with the Bible. The Bible wasn't engineered to answer every question a person might dream up. The Bible was engineered to bring people to faith in Christ -- and it performs this task with unparalleled proficiency.
There are Christians who's scripture is different then yours. People like the Mormons have an additional book (of Mormon), while Catholics and Ethiopians have additional books within their bible.
So, the truth, as you would call it, is not an absolute. An absolute would be like 1+1=2. If the bible was the absolute truth there would be only one bible and one church, and everyone would believe the same.
Originally posted by Da Pittman
That could also mean that it never reached your heart that they people that delivered the message got it wrong or delivered it incorrectly as just with you and Tim who are both in the same faith but have totally different messages. How would a non-believer ever be convinced or converted if its own followers don’t even know the message of Christ? This would be the same if I lived on an island.
* read the Bible, and you'll know the truth... truth is not achieved by believing anti-Bible persons who bash God always...
Originally posted by Da Pittman
So all of those that would truly believe and love Christ with all their heart and soul but never have been exposed or hear of him would be doomed to an eternity of damnation just because of where they lived? As I have said before if the god of the Bible does truly exist then he is the most vindictive and cold hearted bastard that has ever existed and the idea that God is the essence of love is laughable to say the least.
"For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and the love which ye showed toward his name, in that ye ministered unto the saints, and still do minister."
Hebrews 6:10
* then tell me what you think of this verse... 😉