Originally posted by StunI understand your frustration, I really do, but as Darth Sexy has said multiple times, this is a debate forum. Opinion doesn't really matter here. We debate based on the logic and facts of the issues at hand (at least most of us). So while Ivalice's methods may be abrasive to some people, he's actually right in requesting proof or what have you.
Its called an opinion. deal with it like an adult - got that?
Having said that, as much as i love Vader, I don't see him winning here. At least in sabers. Force would be closer, but Mace is no slouch in the force department. One thing that VAder has going for him, is 20 years personal tutelage under the greatest sith lord ever. He's learned incredible control and mastery of the force. I think that would be his only path to victory.
I fail to see how his tutelage under Sidious means anywhere near as much as it's been made out to in the past. Sure, Sidious probably possesses more knowledge of the Force than any other, but considering that, by his own words, he chooses to limit exactly how much knowledge he gives to his apprentices, to make sure they would never be able to surpass him, I don't think Vader'd be receiving the full benefits of his knowledge as his apprentice, say, in comparison to if he were apprenticed under someone like Naga Sadow, who possessed quite the knowledge base himself, and, unlike Sidious, was "far too generous with [it]."
That's true. But the flip side of that is that Sidious can teach him an immense amount about the dark side without teaching Vader as much as he himself knows. Plus, one would figure that were someone to challenge the Sith duo, he would want Vader as capable as possible (without surpassing Sidious, of course). But i do see what you're saying. I just think that would help Vader more than say, him developing solely on his own.
Vader takes this hands down. He beat Dooku at such a young age. Dooku was very almost a match for Yoda, and definetely in his league. So Vader has to be a match for Mace with lightsaber skills. Basically just because hes so damn powerful... hes got like DOUBLE the midi-chlorin count of Sidious! and has mastered the Force.
Also in Force powers hes almost a match for Sidious, so overall hes better and wuld win like 7/10 against Mace. He would have easily been a match for Mace in ROTS when he took down Dooku!
And although I agree his injuries might have limited his almost limitless potential, i dnt buy that he was greatly weakened and not as mobile or fast anymore. End of the day he still had the same midichlorin count, and its the force that gives them there mobility and speed, not their bodies.
Also General Grevious was much more messed up physically than Vader... all he had left was a heart, eyes and brain! lol! but we saw how fast and agile hes was, and im sure Darths technology was just as good. The Emporer would have given him nothing less than the best.
It was just a matter of no CGI in those days when the Original trilogy was made, and also Darth didnt need to jump around at super speeds. We saw Luke doing a really fast jump in ESB... and still he was no match for Vader. Vader could easily keep up, and could do those things if he needed to. In ROTJ when Lukes fully trained, Vader keeps up with him in a fast paced fight, and when Luke kicks him, Vader rolls back doing a backflip. To be honest thats about as good as the stunts and special effects in the original trilogy lightsaber fights got! lol!
Re: Mace Wndu vs Drath Vader
Originally posted by Mr Marvel
I was wondering, Since Mace has like the best Saber skills there is, partially b/c he created his own unique highly difficult to master Style Vapaad and Darth Vader is supposed to be One If not The Best when it comes to the force.Who would win?
Give reasons!!!
is this pre-suit vader?
Originally posted by DARTH POWER: Also General Grevious was much more messed up physically than Vader... all he had left was a heart, eyes and brain! lol! but we saw how fast and agile hes was, and im sure Darths technology was just as good. The Emporer would have given him nothing less than the best.
If I'm not mistaken, Sidious gave vader not top o' the line bionics for fear that he would overthrow him.
It states it in "Dark Lord: The Rise of Darth Vader" I think.
Also General Grevious was much more messed up physically than Vader... all he had left was a heart, eyes and brain! lol! but we saw how fast and agile hes was,That's exactly why. The fact that he wasn't Force-sensitive meant that they could get rid of everything that wasn't necessary, and put the rest in a shell that made him positively superhuman. The Emperor could've done that to Vader, too, but then he would've been useless; if he wanted more super-droids, he could have them made, but turning Vader into something like Grievous would destroy whatever Force potential he had left.
Originally posted by Faunus
That's exactly why. The fact that he wasn't Force-sensitive meant that they could get rid of everything that wasn't necessary, and put the rest in a shell that made him positively superhuman. The Emperor could've done that to Vader, too, but then he would've been useless; if he wanted more super-droids, he could have them made, but turning Vader into something like Grievous would destroy whatever Force potential he had left.
Very true.