Originally posted by leonidas
hence the reason i said there will always be a 'but'. and thor's only been in warrior madness a couple times so it's hard to tell WHERE exactly he should be at and just how effectively he can use his powers. however, it has been shown on panel that he is 10x is strong and can't feel pain. i've seen regular thor do as well against the hulk as wm thor did in that book. thor x 10 should have been able to stomp him. thor 10x SHOULD have looked like he did in blood and thunder. which is why i like to think that arc depicts him much more accurately.of course you can. like i could show thor effortlessly absorbing ss's amped power bolts and using a fist to shatter his force field . . . and i'm about 90% certain that in the past thor has absorbed magneto's force field AND busted radioactive man's. 😬 these no cis battles are almost impossible because any high feat i say you'll say it worked only because SOMEONE ELSE was displaying cis.
generally speaking i do as well, but that hulk story was really crap, imo. be like looking at 2 issues of spidey and factoring in his defeat of firelord as one of his showings then trying to average spidey's powers based on the fact that he beat a herald. doesn't work. obviously spidey has more showings to 'average', but you get the point. there really aren't many showings of WM thor, but a thor who is 10x more powerful than a regular thor otta be the beast we saw in blood and thunder.
so . . . i agree with guy. 🙂 [/B]
Now you want to say that the Blood and Thunder arc is a valid portrayal of WM because of it's limited number of appearances, then you should apply the same standard to everyone. For instance, why don't we take a look at one the only instances of Surfer in an insane/enraged state...
http://img70.imageshack.us/img70/2213/silversurferv3105p12mk3.jpg
http://img254.imageshack.us/img254/5638/silversurferv3105p13ak7.jpg
http://img254.imageshack.us/img254/1125/silversurferv3105p16bg8.jpg
http://img70.imageshack.us/img70/7110/silversurferv3105p17ec7.jpg
http://img254.imageshack.us/img254/2818/silversurferv3105p18yz0.jpg
And compare it to Thor performance against Super Skrull while in Warrior Madness mode...
http://img70.imageshack.us/img70/3900/thor46511vl6.jpg
http://img254.imageshack.us/img254/4760/thor46512ss4.jpg
http://img46.imageshack.us/img46/4149/thor46513gh5.jpg
http://img46.imageshack.us/img46/4094/thor46514cu9.jpg
http://img70.imageshack.us/img70/1433/thor46515ys6.jpg
http://img254.imageshack.us/img254/6956/thor46516zf8.jpg
http://img70.imageshack.us/img70/1047/thor4651718nx7.jpg
http://img266.imageshack.us/my.php?image=thor46519sf8.jpg
Who's seemed more powerful in your opinion?
that's all well and good except going warrior mad is a viable, in-character option for thor. going insane is NOT in-character for ss who is a pacifist at heart. regardless, thor is the consumate energy absorber -- no matter how much energy ss puts out thor should be able to deal with it if there is no stupidity involved. i've never understood why he couldn't do the same thing to ss as he did to the presence, who was quite uber as well. his hammer>ss which is why i take thor over ss in any debate.
and imo berserker state IS warrior madness.
Originally posted by leonidas
that's all well and good except going warrior mad is a viable, in-character option for thor. going insane is NOT in-character for ss who is a pacifist at heart. regardless, thor is the consumate energy absorber -- no matter how much energy ss puts out thor should be able to deal with it if there is no stupidity involved. i've never understood why he couldn't do the same thing to ss as he did to the presence, who was quite uber as well. his hammer>ss which is why i take thor over ss in any debate.and imo berserker state IS warrior madness.
And the berserker state CAN'T be the same as Warrior Madness. We know that because one of them is an accepted practice in battle while one of them is an absolute cultural taboo. Until it's stated to have the same strength increase assigning one is simply speculation.
And what's to stop Surfer from handling Thor just as he did Durok(who Thor was pretty much completely ineffective against)?
Originally posted by darthgoober
CIS is off, whether or not it's "in character" is irrelevant. And I'm not denying Thor's ability to absorb energy, he's one of the best at it and I fully credit him as such. But Quasar is right on par with him in that department and still had some problems with Surfer's energy...
http://img403.imageshack.us/img403/2526/quasar5038mh0.jpgAnd the berserker state CAN'T be the same as Warrior Madness. We know that because one of them is an accepted practice in battle while one of them is an absolute cultural taboo. Until it's stated to have the same strength increase assigning one is simply speculation.
And what's to stop Surfer from handling Thor just as he did Durok(who Thor was pretty much completely ineffective against)?
no cis doesn't imply we change the nature of a character. in any event it wouldn't matter if ss were insane or not. insane ss v wm thor, i still take thor. quasar had some trouble with ss but got the best of ss in that battle, imo. ss was going all out, q was holding back and let him win. and i'll take mjollnir over the quantum bands.
as for madness vs berserk: until i see evidence that one is actually 'more powerful' than the other, i'll consider them the same in that regard -- i think most consider them the same. madness is taboo because it is dishonorable in a sense that they lose a form of respect for their foe, they strike only in anger, without pity or mercy. how that's different from berserk, i've no idea but a mad or insane thor certainly has proven to be immensely powerful.
and . . . how is ss going to handle thor like durok?? didn't ss take durok through time on his board or something ridiculous like that to win? pretty nonsensical if i recall it correctly. and i also seem to recall durok ko'ing ss in that battle AND breaking his board. thor fought him for 3 issues. minus the pis ending, i'd say NEITHER was very effective against durok . . .
anyway, i doubt you'll alter your stance, and i've deabted thor v ss enough to know i'll take thor. ergo my friend, we're at an impasse. besides, i've already debated this longer than i intended.
Uhm, a green lantern without CIS?
Hal stomps anyone?
Originally posted by leonidas
no cis doesn't imply we change the nature of a character. in any event it wouldn't matter if ss were insane or not. insane ss v wm thor, i still take thor. quasar had some trouble with ss but got the best of ss in that battle, imo. ss was going all out, q was holding back and let him win. and i'll take mjollnir over the quantum bands.as for madness vs berserk: until i see evidence that one is actually 'more powerful' than the other, i'll consider them the same in that regard -- i think most consider them the same. madness is taboo because it is dishonorable in a sense that they lose a form of respect for their foe, they strike only in anger, without pity or mercy. how that's different from berserk, i've no idea but a mad or insane thor certainly has proven to be immensely powerful.
and . . . how is ss going to handle thor like durok?? didn't ss take durok through time on his board or something ridiculous like that to win? pretty nonsensical if i recall it correctly. and i also seem to recall durok ko'ing ss in that battle AND breaking his board. thor fought him for 3 issues. minus the pis ending, i'd say NEITHER was very effective against durok . . .
anyway, i doubt you'll alter your stance, and i've deabted thor v ss enough to know i'll take thor. ergo my friend, we're at an impasse. besides, i've already debated this longer than i intended.
You mean Durok who Thor later beat WITHOUT Mjolnir?
Originally posted by llagrok
Uhm, a green lantern without CIS?Hal stomps anyone?
Exactly what I was thinking, to be honest.
The power of a Lantern is stated in-canon to be limited only by what we common refer to as 'CIS'.
I'd still put him about on par with the Surfer though; even if the Surfer wasn't explicitly stated to be limited by nothing but CIS.
Originally posted by leonidas
no cis doesn't imply we change the nature of a character. in any event it wouldn't matter if ss were insane or not. insane ss v wm thor, i still take thor. quasar had some trouble with ss but got the best of ss in that battle, imo. ss was going all out, q was holding back and let him win. and i'll take mjollnir over the quantum bands.
BTW why do you still give insane Surfer vs WM Thor to Thor when Surfer's showing against a common foe was much more impressive?
Originally posted by leonidas
as for madness vs berserk: until i see evidence that one is actually 'more powerful' than the other, i'll consider them the same in that regard -- i think most consider them the same. madness is taboo because it is dishonorable in a sense that they lose a form of respect for their foe, they strike only in anger, without pity or mercy. how that's different from berserk, i've no idea but a mad or insane thor certainly has proven to be immensely powerful.
Originally posted by leonidas
and . . . how is ss going to handle thor like durok?? didn't ss take durok through time on his board or something ridiculous like that to win? pretty nonsensical if i recall it correctly. and i also seem to recall durok ko'ing ss in that battle AND breaking his board. thor fought him for 3 issues. minus the pis ending, i'd say NEITHER was very effective against durok . . .
http://img504.imageshack.us/img504/2946/thor19327zt8.jpg
http://img407.imageshack.us/img407/9743/thor19328hv7.jpg
So Surfer was able to knock the guy out, which was something Thor was unable to do in that particular instance.
Originally posted by leonidas
anyway, i doubt you'll alter your stance, and i've deabted thor v ss enough to know i'll take thor. ergo my friend, we're at an impasse. besides, i've already debated this longer than i intended.
Originally posted by Soljer
Exactly what I was thinking, to be honest.The power of a Lantern is stated [b]in-canon
to be limited only by what we common refer to as 'CIS'.I'd still put him about on par with the Surfer though; even if the Surfer wasn't explicitly stated to be limited by nothing but CIS. [/B]
Originally posted by darthgoober
Unless I'm mistaken, the Power Cosmic's been described as being able to do anything and also as being limited only by Surfer's imagination. It's not nearly as well established as it is for GL's, but it's been mentioned at least once or twice. I'll look through some of my Surfer stuff and see if I can track down the instances...
Originally posted by Soljer
👆.
The Power Cosmic can accomplish anything...
http://img403.imageshack.us/img403/1075/fantasticfour07205ps3.jpg
Dr Doom using Surfer's powers can create any kind of weapon he wants(similarly to a GL's ability to create anything they can imagine)...
http://img504.imageshack.us/img504/1690/9itemcreationls7.jpg
Originally posted by SoljerMaybe pre-Crisis this was true. The ring has limits. I think the power of a Green Lantern is more limited then the Surfer's.
Exactly what I was thinking, to be honest.The power of a Lantern is stated [b]in-canon
to be limited only by what we common refer to as 'CIS'.I'd still put him about on par with the Surfer though; even if the Surfer wasn't explicitly stated to be limited by nothing but CIS. [/B]
Re: CIS free Battle Royal...
Avlon, just list the variables and make an informed decision:
Thor
- Overall power: Near or at the top of this group (even minus Odinforce)
- Most powerful attack: Godblast, which wouldn't do too much since it takes a while to focus the energies, leaves him exhausted and apparently hasn't been shown to be all-encompassing.
- Trump card: Warrior madness, Mjolnir and plot device magic he has regularly employed in the past.
- Of special note: Immune to Warlock's karmic blast and Mjolnir can be used to deflect just about anything.
Silver Surfer
- Overall power: Near or at the top of this group (amped since 'Annihilation.'😉
- Most powerful attack: Black hole creation, among other things
- Trump card: Cosmic awareness and high end matter/energy manipulation which includes absorption and redirection.
- Of special note: Has had a historically tough time against Thor and probably Warlock who melded his soul with him.
Adam Warlock
- Overall power: Rivals most in the group (assuming circa 'Infinity Watch'😉
- Most powerful attack: Soul steal, which he's used on very high-level beings. But I've never seen it done to multiple opponents, so at best might be a one-shot kill.
- Trump card: Can control Surfer's board, karmic blast
- Of special note: He is probably the only one who fights better when he is calm and cool-headed rather then bloodlusted. His karmic blast would give everyone trouble... except Thor who is immune.
Quasar
- Overall power: Although underrated, still near the bottom (assuming Wendell Vaughn)
- Most powerful attack: Nothing special
- Trump card: Good energy manipulator, but still outclassed by Surfer
- Of special note: Apparently there have been several beings who have absorbed his Quantum energy, including Skeletron and Annihilus.
Superman
- Overall power: Near or at the top of this group
- Most powerful attack: T-Vo, hate it all you want, but its there, but I've never seen it used against more then one foe and other then agreeing to a duel, apparently it takes time to expand a theta field to draw an opponent in.
- Trump card: Would probably fly people into the sun and amp himself.
- Of special note: Has shattered Green Lantern constructs. Unfortunately, he has the most exploitable weaknesses since three characters could synthesize kryptonite and red sun radiation and two other characters could use magic/magical weapons against him.
Green Lantern (Hal)
- Overall power: Lil bit lower but can still rival some in the group
- Most powerful attack: Nothing special comes to mind
- Trump card: Matter/energy manipulation
- Of special note: Unfortunately, against the high-end capabilities listed, he'd probably have to focus an incredible amount of willpower while attacking/defending and his personal fields would suffer. He's also vulnerable to intense backlash should his contructs be shattered by pure force.
Firestorm
- Overall power: Rivals most in the group, sorely underrated IMHO
- Most powerful attack: Nothing special comes to mind
- Trump card: Instantaneous high-end matter/energy manipulation
- Of special note: Although relatively inexperienced, even current Firestorm has a large amount of feats under his belt. But he does seem to be a little bit out of his depth and might feel overwhelmed. Now that's not CIS, he just happens to not be as battle-tested as others and requires guidance/advice during some of his feats.
Wonder Woman (standard gear, plus sword, and sandals)
- Overall power: Rivals most in this group, sorely underrated IMHO
- Most powerful attack: Godwave, can amp her to an unknown degree but it can kill her if used for too long.
- Trump card: Lasso is versatile and she possesses nearly impenetrable defense. Some say invulnerable, but I've seen comics where even she admits that the bracelets won't protect her.
- Of special note: She can and has hung tough with a bloodlusted Superman, twice. Magical weapons would give Superman a tough time.
Hmmm. I'm going to go with Thor. He's near the top for strength, speed, fighting ability, versatility, defensive capabilities and he has no exploitable weaknesses. I think Surfer would still have a tough time against Thor and Warlock would honestly screw around with Surfer IMHO. I wanted to pick Adam Warlock as a dark horse candidate because of his cunning, but bottom-line is, he could find no answer against Thor if it ever turned into a 1v1.
