I'd give it to Krayt in a lightsaber battle, personally. As A'Sharad, he was considered extremely strong in the Force, and very talented. As Krayt, he's got over a century's worth of experience under his belt, as well as lightsaber resistant armour that covers the vast majority of his body, on top of that. He'd clearly be a pretty effective combatant without the armour (I'd argue on the level of someone like Anakin Skywalker, easily); with it, I think he'd be too much for Yoda to handle.
Originally posted by 666.4
I'd give it to Krayt in a lightsaber battle, personally. As A'Sharad, he was considered extremely strong in the Force, and very talented.[/uote]
More talented and stronger than YODA?
As Krayt, he's got over a century's worth of experience under his belt, as well as lightsaber resistant armour that covers the vast majority of his body, on top of that.
You're aware is doesn't do a thing for him on his sides, neck or head, right? Nor that Yoda has 9 times the experience Krayt does? Especially when Krayt's spent so much time in stasis?
[Quote]
He'd clearly be a pretty effective combatant without the armour (I'd argue on the level of someone like Anakin Skywalker, easily); with it, I think he'd be too much for Yoda to handle.
Originally posted by Lightsnake
More talented and stronger than YODA?
Firstly, I'd like to point out that my intention was not to form a comparison between the two, but just to substantiate how effective Krayt would be even without his armour, based on his talent and experience.
Secondly, I really don't see why you're using the CAPLOCKS there as if Yoda was renowned for his strength in the Force or talent, because as far as we know, he wasn't. His mastery of the Force was unparalleled, as was his wisdom, and those are what he was acknowledged for. He was a freaking 900 year old Jedi Master, it's not like he needs to have possessed above average Force potential or talent to reach the level that he has.
You're aware is doesn't do a thing for him on his sides, neck or head, right?
I'm well aware of the holes in the armour, Lightsnake, and really, I personally find the idea that you'd completely disregard what the armour does offer, and focus on something relatively insignificant, preposterous. The armour still covers the majority of his body, and it's a huge advantage that Krayt possesses over the Jedi Grand Master.
Nor that Yoda has 9 times the experience Krayt does?
Age =/= experience.
Up until the PT times, he hadn't even practised with his lightsaber in years (as is stated in the Power of the Jedi Sourcebook under his section). Months after the Clone Wars had begun (In Jedi: Mace Windu), he's asked by Mace on whether he wanted to spar with him or not, and replies that his duel with Count Dooku was "practise enough." In a demonstration to a class of padawans, as described in Shadowhunter, after using his force mastery to dodge the attacks of three extremely adept lightsaber masters, he states that mastery of the force is an "infinitely greater" asset than actual battle prowess. It's stated at the start of Dark Rendezvous that as Grand Master of the Order, he rarely left the Temple, and that his participation in the Clone Wars was minimal.
It's pretty clear that he didn't feel the need to consistently work on his lightsaber technique, and it's pretty clear that by the time of the Clone Wars, he was pretty out of practise with the weapon.
Especially when Krayt's spent so much time in stasis?
So much time in stasis? We know that he's spent some time in stasis, but from what I remember, it was never for any extended period of time, but more so for short intervals every one in a while. Either way, as he explains to Cade in a recent Legacy issues, he's had a tonne of experience under his belt, where he's honed his skills to enormous heights. The point remains: he's clearly had the experience to largely realise his potential, so when you factor in the VC armour, I'd be willing to bet that he'd give Yoda an extremely hard fight, and possibly win.
Anakin Skywalker? So without the armor he's got...no chance against Yoda with a saber, then? With it, he has...still no chance?
Given Anakin's casual and quick defeat of a Jedi Weapons Master like Cin Drallig, I'd be willing to bet that he'd have more than "no chance" against Yoda if they were to engage each other, especially if he were to be thinking clearly.
Either way, you've yet to even substantiate how Yoda even compares to someone who -- when surrounded by four top Imperial Knights -- was able to face them all at the same time, and slaughter them in moments.
Neither Yoda, not his peers or rivals, have demonstrated that kind of ability with a lightsaber, and based on what we know about their respective attributes and such, I fail to see how Yoda stacks up to someone like Darth Krayt.
Originally posted by 666.4Firstly, I'd like to point out that my intention was not to form a comparison between the two, but just to substantiate how effective Krayt would be even without his armour, based on his talent and experience.
Secondly, I really don't see why you're using the CAPLOCKS there as if Yoda was renowned for his strength in the Force or talent, because as far as we know, he wasn't.
His mastery of the Force was unparalleled, as was his wisdom, and those are what he was acknowledged for. He was a freaking 900 year old Jedi Master, it's not like he needs to have possessed above average Force potential or talent to reach the level that he has.
I'm well aware of the holes in the armour, Lightsnake, and really, I personally find the idea that you'd completely disregard what the armour does offer, and focus on something relatively insignificant, preposterous. The armour still covers the majority of his body, and it's a huge advantage that Krayt possesses over the Jedi Grand Master.
Age =/= experience.
Up until the PT times, he hadn't even practised with his lightsaber in years (as is stated in the Power of the Jedi Sourcebook under his section).
Months after the Clone Wars had begun (In Jedi: Mace Windu), he's asked by Mace on whether he wanted to spar with him or not, and replies that his duel with Count Dooku was "practise enough."
In a demonstration to a class of padawans, as described in Shadowhunter, after using his force mastery to dodge the attacks of three extremely adept lightsaber masters, he states that mastery of the force is an "infinitely greater" asset than actual battle prowess.
It's stated at the start of Dark Rendezvous that as Grand Master of the Order, he rarely left the Temple, and that his participation in the Clone Wars was minimal.
It's pretty clear that he didn't feel the need to consistently work on his lightsaber technique, and it's pretty clear that by the time of the Clone Wars, he was pretty out of practise with the weapon.
So much time in stasis? We know that he's spent some time in stasis, but from what I remember, it was never for any extended period of time, but more so for short intervals every one in a while.
Either way, as he explains to Cade in a recent Legacy issues, he's had a tonne of experience under his belt, where he's honed his skills to enormous heights.
The point remains: he's clearly had the experience to largely realise his potential, so when you factor in the VC armour, I'd be willing to bet that he'd give Yoda an extremely hard fight, and possibly win.
Given Anakin's casual and quick defeat of a Jedi Weapons Master like Cin Drallig, I'd be willing to bet that he'd have more than "no chance" against Yoda if they were to engage each other, especially if he were to be thinking clearly.
Either way, you've yet to even substantiate how Yoda even compares to someone who -- when surrounded by four top Imperial Knights -- was able to face them all at the same time, and slaughter them in moments.
Neither Yoda, not his peers or rivals, have demonstrated that kind of ability with a lightsaber, and based on what we know about their respective attributes and such, I fail to see how Yoda stacks up to someone like Darth Krayt. [/B]
Originally posted by 666.4Which would be why Obi-Wan in TPM notes - with obvious surprise - that Anakin's midichlorian count is "even higher than [Yoda's]." Not to mention that he was said to possess raw power equivalent to that of Anakin Skywalker or Kar Vastor by Mace, who also claimed Yoda was far above him in terms of power on mulitple occasions.
Firstly, I'd like to point out that my intention was not to form a comparison between the two, but just to substantiate how effective Krayt would be even without his armour, based on his talent and experience.Secondly, I really don't see why you're using the CAPLOCKS there as if Yoda was renowned for his strength in the Force or talent, because as far as we know, he wasn't. His mastery of the Force was unparalleled, as was his wisdom, and those are what he was acknowledged for. He was a freaking 900 year old Jedi Master, it's not like he needs to have possessed above average Force potential or talent to reach the level that he has.
Yoda has an extremely high level of power lying underneath everything else.
I'm well aware of the holes in the armour, Lightsnake, and really, I personally find the idea that you'd completely disregard what the armour does offer, and focus on something relatively insignificant, preposterous. The armour still covers the majority of his body, and it's a huge advantage that Krayt possesses over the Jedi Grand Master.This is true, and thanks to that he'll stay alive longer than he would've without it. But it's just delaying the inevitable.
It's pretty clear that he didn't feel the need to consistently work on his lightsaber technique, and it's pretty clear that by the time of the Clone Wars, he was pretty out of practise with the weapon.And apparently, he doesn't need to. Despite the purported "lack of practice," Yoda fought off Count Dooku twice, and did just fine against Sidious - who, by the way, managed to slaughter three Jedi Masters in seconds and hold his own against Mace Windu with very little recent training.
So much time in stasis? We know that he's spent some time in stasis, but from what I remember, it was never for any extended period of time, but more so for short intervals every one in a while. Either way, as he explains to Cade in a recent Legacy issues, he's had a tonne of experience under his belt, where he's honed his skills to enormous heights. The point remains: he's clearly had the experience to largely realise his potential, so when you factor in the VC armour, I'd be willing to bet that he'd give Yoda an extremely hard fight, and possibly win.Well what showings had he had that would put him on par with someone like Anakin, let alone Yoda? As far as I can recall, he killed some Force-sensitive Imperial Guards and ruled over an army of garbage Dark-siders. Hardly the best credentials.
Given Anakin's casual and quick defeat of a Jedi Weapons Master like Cin Drallig, I'd be willing to bet that he'd have more than "no chance" against Yoda if they were to engage each other, especially if he were to be thinking clearly.He'd still lose, and it wouldn't be all that much of a fight.
Either way, you've yet to even substantiate how Yoda even compares to someone who -- when surrounded by four top Imperial Knights -- was able to face them all at the same time, and slaughter them in moments.In a passage you cited above, he easily evades the strikes of three Jedi Masters working in concert without even using his lightsaber, one of whom, I believe, was Depa.
That's not even touching on the likely superiority of his opponents in comparison to those of Krayt. The PT era Jedi Masters are likely far more skilled than the Imperial Guards, and its made quite clear that they pose little threat to him.
Neither Yoda,See the above.
not his peers or rivals, have demonstrated that kind of ability with a lightsaber, and based on what we know about their respective attributes and such, I fail to see how Yoda stacks up to someone like Darth Krayt.His peers? Really? How about Count Dooku casually manhandling Sora Bulq and Tholme at the same time, and replicating that feat in RotS against Anakin and Obi-Wan? And I guess you missed the part where a relatively "out-of-practice" Palpatine took apart three renowned Jedi Masters in seconds, then proceeded to duel Mace Windu almost to a standstill. Sorry, but no. Krayt doesn't have a prayer.
Originally posted by Faunus
Which would be why Obi-Wan in TPM notes - with obvious surprise - that Anakin's midichlorian count is "even higher than [Yoda's]." Not to mention that he was said to possess raw power equivalent to that of Anakin Skywalker or Kar Vastor by Mace, who also claimed Yoda was far above him in terms of power on mulitple occasions.Yoda has an extremely high level of power lying underneath everything else.
You're right, I'm actually genuinely quite surprised that I forgot about that stuff, given how many times I've brought it up in past debates. Anyways, my bad, but the point remains that there's absolutely nothing that points to Yoda's natural talent with a lightsaber having been anything special, which is what Lightsnake was implying.
This is true, and thanks to that he'll stay alive longer than he would've without it. But it's just delaying the inevitable.
No, there's more to possessing such armour than simply being able to last longer against your opponent; it adds to the effectiveness of one's offence. A few examples: Krayt would be able to focus almost completely on his offence without having to sacrifice his defence (think Ataru with few defencive weaknesses), he'd be able to use his body parts to block Yoda's attacks and immediately (given the blocking isn't being done by his weapons) be able to follow up on the counterattack with his twin sabers, and he'd be able to throw melee attacks without having to worry about his limbs being sliced off.
The protection that the armour provides, and being able to fight without the need to protect yourself are huge advantages, that shouldn't be nitpicked at, and just accepted as being what they are: the sh1t.
Also, it's not as if he sucks without the armour, given the fact that he was clearly an extremely talented and force strong Jedi, and as a Sith, has received decades worth of battle experience to hone that potential.
And apparently, he doesn't need to. Despite the purported "lack of practice,"
No, it's not "purported." As I explained, it's outright stated in the Power of the Jedi Sourcebook that nobody had even seen him with a lightsaber for years, in reference to his TPM self, and during the Clone Wars, not only is it explicitly stated that as Jedi Grand Master, he rarely left the temple, but he apparently still didn't feel the need to work on his skills, as is evident by his attitude towards training, as is seen in Jedi: Mace Windu.
Yoda fought off Count Dooku twice, and did just fine against Sidious - who, by the way, managed to slaughter three Jedi Masters in seconds and hold his own against Mace Windu with very little recent training.
I know full well what they've both achieved, Faunus, and had you actually payed attention to the argument that you jumped into, you would have noticed that I was simply pointing out that Yoda's experience with a saber is largely made void by how little he practised by the time period we're dealing with. I never denied the fact that Yoda is clearly a hell of a saber combatant with his force mastery alone, but technique is a factor that should be taken into consideration, and it's something that Krayt logically has Yoda beat in.
Well what showings had he had that would put him on par with someone like Anakin, let alone Yoda? As far as I can recall, he killed some Force-sensitive Imperial Guards and ruled over an army of garbage Dark-siders. Hardly the best credentials.
You can argue from personal opinion all you want, it doesn't make it any less of a fallacy.
Now, we know that the Imperial Knights were clearly some of Roan Fell's best, given he trusted them over any others to hold back the Sith long enough so that he and his party could escape. Aside from that, the circumstances that he defeated them in suggests an extremely high level of ability, being surrounded by all four of them, and casually slaughtering them all in moments. As a showing, it puts nearly any other to shame.
He'd still lose, and it wouldn't be all that much of a fight.
Faunus, if you're going to go out of your way to reply to someone else's argument, at least substantiate your claims. Yoda isn't exactly the type of guy who's gonna be able to exploit Anakin's emotional vulnerabilities any time soon, and with a clear mind, he's shown some extremely impressive ability with a saber, examples being his defeat of Cin Drallig in seconds whilst dueling another opponent, as well as his quick defeat of Count Dooku, who was able to at least out up a fight against Yoda.
In a passage you cited above, he easily evades the strikes of three Jedi Masters working in concert without even using his lightsaber, one of whom, I believe, was Depa.
In a prearranged demonstration that, for all we know, could well have been exaggerating the effectiveness of Yoda's mastery of the Force to further drive the intended message through to the padawans: that mastery of the Force is a far greater asset to a Jedi than sheer lightsaber prowess. We don't know either way, making what we see inadmissible as evidence.
That's not even touching on the likely superiority of his opponents in comparison to those of Krayt. The PT era Jedi Masters are likely far more skilled than the Imperial Guards,
"Likely?" You're again arguing from personal opinion, making claims without substantiating them because something simply seems to be the case.
Never mind the fact that unlike the PT Jedi Order, the Imperial Knights didn't restrict themselves by following some code, or the fact that, unlike the PT Jedi, they were far more focused on the combat related aspects of being a Jedi, made to act as bodyguards and soldiers, rather than diplomats and negotiators.
No, the PT Jedi must be better... because... they were in the movies?
and its made quite clear that they pose little threat to him.
And you'd expect nothing less from his peace keeping allies and students.
See the above.
I have, and the "above" doesn't prove a thing given that we don't know the full circumstances behind what's shown in the demonstration.
His peers? Really? How about Count Dooku casually manhandling Sora Bulq and Tholme at the same time,
I love how you fail to mention the fact that the only proven impressive combatant of the Jedi duo - Sora Bulq, was working with the Count at the very time the duel took place.
Really, that point alone pretty much negates anything that might have been impressive about the showing, given how little Tholme has shown in situations that would call for it.
and replicating that feat in RotS against Anakin and Obi-Wan?
666.4: Neither Yoda, not his peers or rivals, have demonstrated that kind of ability with a lightsaber.
He took them down using his superior force powers, he didn't take them both on and eliminate Obi-Wan through his lightsaber prowess.
And I guess you missed the part where a relatively "out-of-practice" Palpatine took apart three renowned Jedi Masters in seconds, then proceeded to duel Mace Windu almost to a standstill.
The first two: Agen and Saesee, were renowned for their prowess with a lightsaber, which was made irrelevant by how Palpatine, rather than engaging them in battle, caught them off guard and took them down in one hit. As far as force powers go, they've displayed nothing, meaning that there's nothing that suggests their reflexes were up to par, and nothing that makes the first part of Palpatine's showing anything special.
Now sure, his take down of Kit Fisto, and performance against Mace Windu was extremely impressive, but in comparison to the way in which Krayt - after being completely surrounded - casually demolished four impressive Imperial Knights in moments? It's lacking.
Sorry, but no. Krayt doesn't have a prayer.
Please. His showings go beyond anything we've seen from Yoda (as well as his equals and inferiors), and looking at their respective attributes, on paper, Krayt would logically win. His armour is simply too big an advantage to ignore, and without it, he's clearly got Yoda beat by a fair amount in technical prowess. Yoda has one advantage: his (from what we know) superior force mastery, but taking into account the armour and superior technique on Krayt's part, Yoda's logically going down.