Originally posted by 666.4
[B]You're right, I'm actually genuinely quite surprised that I forgot about that stuff, given how many times I've brought it up in past debates. Anyways, my bad, but the point remains that there's absolutely nothing that points to Yoda's natural talent with a lightsaber having been anything special, which is what Lightsnake was implying.
No, there's more to possessing such armour than simply being able to last longer against your opponent; it adds to the effectiveness of one's offence. A few examples: Krayt would be able to focus almost completely on his offence without having to sacrifice his defence (think Ataru with few defencive weaknesses), he'd be able to use his body parts to block Yoda's attacks and immediately (given the blocking isn't being done by his weapons) be able to follow up on the counterattack with his twin sabers, and he'd be able to throw melee attacks without having to worry about his limbs being sliced off.
The protection that the armour provides, and being able to fight without the need to protect yourself are huge advantages, that shouldn't be nitpicked at, and just accepted as being what they are: the sh1t.
Also, it's not as if he sucks without the armour, given the fact that he was clearly an extremely talented and force strong Jedi, and as a Sith, has received decades worth of battle experience to hone that potential.
No, it's not "purported." As I explained, it's outright stated in the Power of the Jedi Sourcebook that nobody had even seen him with a lightsaber for years,
in reference to his TPM self, and during the Clone Wars, not only is it explicitly stated that as Jedi Grand Master, he rarely left the temple, but he apparently still didn't feel the need to work on his skills, as is evident by his attitude towards training, as is seen in Jedi: Mace Windu.
I know full well what they've both achieved, Faunus, and had you actually payed attention to the argument that you jumped into, you would have noticed that I was simply pointing out that Yoda's experience with a saber is largely made void by how little he practised by the time period we're dealing with.
I never denied the fact that Yoda is clearly a hell of a saber combatant with his force mastery alone, but technique is a factor that should be taken into consideration, and it's something that Krayt logically has Yoda beat in.
Now, we know that the Imperial Knights were clearly some of Roan Fell's best, given he trusted them over any others to hold back the Sith long enough so that he and his party could escape.
Aside from that, the circumstances that he defeated them in suggests an extremely high level of ability, being surrounded by all four of them, and casually slaughtering them all in moments. As a showing, it puts nearly any other to shame.
Faunus, if you're going to go out of your way to reply to someone else's argument, at least substantiate your claims. Yoda isn't exactly the type of guy who's gonna be able to exploit Anakin's emotional vulnerabilities any time soon, and with a clear mind, he's shown some extremely impressive ability with a saber, examples being his defeat of Cin Drallig in seconds whilst dueling another opponent, as well as his quick defeat of Count Dooku, who was able to at least out up a fight against Yoda.
In a prearranged demonstration that, for all we know, could well have been exaggerating the effectiveness of Yoda's mastery of the Force to further drive the intended message through to the padawans: that mastery of the Force is a far greater asset to a Jedi than sheer lightsaber prowess. We don't know either way, making what we see inadmissible as evidence.
Never mind the fact that unlike the PT Jedi Order, the Imperial Knights didn't restrict themselves by following some code, or the fact that, unlike the PT Jedi, they were far more focused on the combat related aspects of being a Jedi, made to act as bodyguards and soldiers, rather than diplomats and negotiators.
No, the PT Jedi must be better... because... they were in the movies?
And you'd expect nothing less from his peace keeping allies and students.
I have, and the "above" doesn't prove a thing given that we don't know the full circumstances behind what's shown in the demonstration.
I love how you fail to mention the fact that the only proven impressive combatant of the Jedi duo - Sora Bulq, was working with the Count at the very time the duel took place.
Really, that point alone pretty much negates anything that might have been impressive about the showing, given how little Tholme has shown in situations that would call for it.
666.4: Neither Yoda, not his peers or rivals, have demonstrated that kind of ability with a lightsaber.He took them down using his superior force powers, he didn't take them both on and eliminate Obi-Wan through his lightsaber prowess.
The first two: Agen and Saesee, were renowned for their prowess with a lightsaber, which was made irrelevant by how Palpatine, rather than engaging them in battle, caught them off guard and took them down in one hit.
As far as force powers go, they've displayed nothing, meaning that there's nothing that suggests their reflexes were up to par, and nothing that makes the first part of Palpatine's showing anything special.
Now sure, his take down of Kit Fisto, and performance against Mace Windu was extremely impressive, but in comparison to the way in which Krayt - after being completely surrounded - casually demolished four impressive Imperial Knights in moments? It's lacking.
Please. His showings go beyond anything we've seen from Yoda (as well as his equals and inferiors), and looking at their respective attributes, on paper, Krayt would logically win.
His armour is simply too big an advantage to ignore, and without it, he's clearly got Yoda beat by a fair amount in technical prowess.
Yoda has one advantage: his (from what we know) superior force mastery, but taking into account the armour and superior technique on Krayt's part, Yoda's logically going down. [/B]
Originally posted by darthsith19not totally saber proof, it's only resistant to quick contact, and yoda would still win, making that him win everything
I can see how Krayt might be able to win a saber duel since about 90% of his body is covered by lightsaber-proof armor. But otherwise Yoda wins all of them. He might win the saber duel anyways, I am not to certain where Krayt stands.
Nebaris, your entire argument (once again) hinges on one thing: Krayt's defeat of the Imperial Knights. The fact remains that you've yet to prove that they are anything worth considering in terms of skill and ability, so before you go and prattle on how "please he has logically shown more than Yoda", remember that you are required to prove such a thing before doing so. Otherwise, as is the case now, no one is going to take you seriously.
It will be interesting to see Faunus's rebuttal.
Originally posted by Faunus
*sigh* Do I have to? I may as well just wait until his next post, seeing as how LS already hit this one.
That's traditionally how it works. Besides, give me a break; Lightsnake and I have been taking turns slapping Nebaris around for months upon months. About damn time you start taking over. 😛
On second thought...
Originally posted by 666.4
You're right, I'm actually genuinely quite surprised that I forgot about that stuff, given how many times I've brought it up in past debates. Anyways, my bad, but the point remains that there's absolutely nothing that points to Yoda's natural talent with a lightsaber having been anything special, which is what Lightsnake was implying.
No, it's not "purported." As I explained, it's outright stated in the Power of the Jedi Sourcebook that nobody had even seen him with a lightsaber for years, in reference to his TPM self, and during the Clone Wars, not only is it explicitly stated that as Jedi Grand Master, he rarely left the temple, but he apparently still didn't feel the need to work on his skills, as is evident by his attitude towards training, as is seen in Jedi: Mace Windu.
I know full well what they've both achieved, Faunus, and had you actually payed attention to the argument that you jumped into, you would have noticed that I was simply pointing out that Yoda's experience with a saber is largely made void by how little he practised by the time period we're dealing with. I never denied the fact that Yoda is clearly a hell of a saber combatant with his force mastery alone, but technique is a factor that should be taken into consideration, and it's something that Krayt logically has Yoda beat in.And "logically," Yoda doesn't need the practice. His technique and form are obviously not so diminished by the lack of said practice that they visibly lessen his ability, so this is irrelevant. You've used this same argument before against Sidious, and it doesn't work.
No, there's more to possessing such armour than simply being able to last longer against your opponent; it adds to the effectiveness of one's offence. A few examples: Krayt would be able to focus almost completely on his offence without having to sacrifice his defence (think Ataru with few defencive weaknesses), he'd be able to use his body parts to block Yoda's attacks and immediately (given the blocking isn't being done by his weapons) be able to follow up on the counterattack with his twin sabers, and he'd be able to throw melee attacks without having to worry about his limbs being sliced off.Which would be the reason he'd last longer against Yoda.The protection that the armour provides, and being able to fight without the need to protect yourself are huge advantages, that shouldn't be nitpicked at, and just accepted as being what they are: the sh1t.
Also, it's not as if he sucks without the armour, given the fact that he was clearly an extremely talented and force strong Jedi, and as a Sith, has received decades worth of battle experience to hone that potential.As a Jedi he was skilled, but that's it. He still got hiss ass handed to him by an "out of practice" Kenobi.
You can argue from personal opinion all you want, it doesn't make it any less of a fallacy.Hypocrite, much?
Now, we know that the Imperial Knights were clearly some of Roan Fell's best, given he trusted them over any others to hold back the Sith long enough so that he and his party could escape. Aside from that, the circumstances that he defeated them in suggests an extremely high level of ability, being surrounded by all four of them, and casually slaughtering them all in moments. As a showing, it puts nearly any other to shame.Bullshit. As LS pointed out, they - alongside the decoy - were sent to die. And as previously stated, this was a feat previously replicated by Sidious against Jedi Masters.
Faunus, if you're going to go out of your way to reply to someone else's argument, at least substantiate your claims. Yoda isn't exactly the type of guy who's gonna be able to exploit Anakin's emotional vulnerabilities any time soon, and with a clear mind, he's shown some extremely impressive ability with a saber, examples being his defeat of Cin Drallig in seconds whilst dueling another opponent, as well as his quick defeat of Count Dooku, who was able to at least out up a fight against Yoda.Since, among other things, Palpatine himself is of the opinion that Yoda would have tooled Anakin, you really have no case.
RoDV:
"I wasn't strong enough to defeat Obi-Wan."
"... so imagine what Yoda would have done to you."
In a prearranged demonstration that, for all we know, could well have been exaggerating the effectiveness of Yoda's mastery of the Force to further drive the intended message through to the padawans: that mastery of the Force is a far greater asset to a Jedi than sheer lightsaber prowess. We don't know either way, making what we see inadmissible as evidence.Right. So Jedi Masters faked a presentation to the impressionable younglings whom they're training to become the next generation of galactic peacekeepers. There's an argument.
"Likely?" You're again arguing from personal opinion, making claims without substantiating them because something simply seems to be the case.The PT Jedi are better because the Imperial Knights have done nothing. The only times we see them in action they get slaughtered by Krayt, so yeah, fantastic showings considering who you're comparing them to,Never mind the fact that unlike the PT Jedi Order, the Imperial Knights didn't restrict themselves by following some code, or the fact that, unlike the PT Jedi, they were far more focused on the combat related aspects of being a Jedi, made to act as bodyguards and soldiers, rather than diplomats and negotiators.
No, the PT Jedi must be better... because... they were in the movies?
I have, and the "above" doesn't prove a thing given that we don't know the full circumstances behind what's shown in the demonstration.They walk in and ignite their lightsabers. He stands up, activates his, and charges them. They die. Mace lives, and fights. No further circumstances; he's just that good.
Although I have to admit, that was hands down the worst fight in the series.
I love how you fail to mention the fact that the only proven impressive combatant of the Jedi duo - Sora Bulq, was working with the Count at the very time the duel took place.Lying, now? At least Wiki it if you don't know for sure.Really, that point alone pretty much negates anything that might have been impressive about the showing, given how little Tholme has shown in situations that would call for it.
""Twisted my mind?! He opened it! After defeating me on Bakura, Dooku tended to my wounds and reasoned with me! He showed me the anger at the core of my being—and made me acknowledge its power!"
666.4: Neither Yoda, not his peers or rivals, have demonstrated that kind of ability with a lightsaber.Uh, Obi-Wan dismantling a cyborg who could manage 20 strikes a second? The aforementioned Jedi vs. Sidious duel?(which you choose to ignore) Hell, Grievous' MagnaGuards have shown more ability than Fel's wannabes, and Kit tooled two of those himself.He took them down using his superior force powers, he didn't take them both on and eliminate Obi-Wan through his lightsaber prowess.
We don't really need to substantiate anything until you prove that the Imperial Knights were worth something in combat.
The first two: Agen and Saesee, were renowned for their prowess with a lightsaber, which was made irrelevant by how Palpatine, rather than engaging them in battle, caught them off guard and took them down in one hit."Caught them off guard?" Which would be why they were standing there staring at him for five full seconds between the time he activated his lightsaber and the beginning of his assault. Don't make things up.
As far as force powers go, they've displayed nothing, meaning that there's nothing that suggests their reflexes were up to par, and nothing that makes the first part of Palpatine's showing anything special.... Right. Considering Agen Kolar was apparently a notch above Quinlan Vos, and Saesee Tiin was the best Jedi pilot this side of Anakin, it would appear that their Force-attunement and reflexes are rather impressive.
Now sure, his take down of Kit Fisto, and performance against Mace Windu was extremely impressive, but in comparison to the way in which Krayt - after being completely surrounded - casually demolished four impressive Imperial Knights in moments? It's lacking.No, it completely eclipses Krayt's feat. And again; you need to prove that the Knights were actually good, especially in comparison to some of the most talented Jedi Masters of an era.
Please. His showings go beyond anything we've seen from Yoda (as well as his equals and inferiors), and looking at their respective attributes, on paper, Krayt would logically win. His armour is simply too big an advantage to ignore, and without it, he's clearly got Yoda beat by a fair amount in technical prowess. Yoda has one advantage: his (from what we know) superior force mastery, but taking into account the armour and superior technique on Krayt's part, Yoda's logically going down.You're hopeless. Aside from the socking, I don't think you deserve to be treated the way you are. But this is absolutely ridiculous.
Originally posted by GideonHey. I had Numan and tommyvercetti. QED.
That's traditionally how it works. Besides, give me a break; Lightsnake and I have been taking turns slapping Nebaris around for months upon months. About damn time you start taking over. 😛
At least Nebaris knows how to type. And he's had some decent arguments in the past.
Originally posted by darthsith19still that doesnt make the armour completely saber proof, just to yoda who would problly change form or something
Well Yoda uses Ataru which focuses on quick, light blows, so "quick contact" = Yoda.
and did somebody actually say that krayt showed more power than yoda? he electricuted some people and killed some pathetics, yoda would have absorbed the lightning then stormed the jedi temple and killed all the clones....again, and yes i know there were only a few clone compared to the army that went in there
Originally posted by Faunus
Hey. I had Numan and tommyvercetti. QED.At least Nebaris knows how to type. And he's had some decent arguments in the past.
Nebaris isn't stupid, but that doesn't prevent him from making some bullshit points. I mean, come on, this is one of the most ridiculous approaches that one can make. There is absolutely no suggestion of evidence that would compel a reasonable person to conclude that Krayt is anything near Yoda.
Originally posted by Faunus
This is true. And the whole 30+(?) sock think is more than little bit ridiculous.But at least we have Man of Christ to balance things out. He's a blast.
I don't understand it, either. Especially from a person who thinks he's God's gift to humor (you should see his lectures on banter); it's just not funny. And when people ask, he always declines to answer.
Though you did seem to send him scurrying. Points to you. 😄
Noobaris, it almost seems that you like coming back to be banned and pwned, so let me help you along on your path to catharsis (spiritual renewal to anyone who doesn't know what that means) in the form of being banned yet again.
(clears throat)
Get your worthless ideas and your worthless sock accounts out of the forums so we can finally have some peace and quiet after over 30 of your pathetic attempts at debating your ideas here.
...
As for the fight, I'd give all three to Yoda, although I think that the Vonduun Skerr Kyrric would not make it easy. But then again, as Bane, Andenddu (I hope I spelled that right) and Nihilus said, Krayt is just a pretender. He would put up a fight, no doubt about that, but Yoda would triumph.