Safer Sephiroth vs. Kain

Started by Burning thought13 pages

Originally posted by Terryc250
I call them WEAK remnants, all 3 of them obviously don't add up to Sephiroth.

Sephiroth TK is in its path, you must have a POWERFUL TK to hold it, if you have a weak TK obviously Holy will just force its way through it, you're saying Kain can hold Holy? Haha, Kain can't even carry 2 ppl at once.

I didn't literally mean Slashing with a weapon, however; it did make a slashing noise as i recall, and No Cloud doesn't say "try and move"

Here is the direct FF7 Script:

Scene 141
- Judgmet Day - The One-Winged Angel -

(Cloud falls in slow-motion through blackness. The only light is from a glowing white sphere in the center of the screen. It pulsates with energy as though it were a beating heart. Cloud continues to fall toward it.)

Li......ght......
A light........
Is this.......
Is this light...... Holy?

(He falls into the light. . The core of the Planet. In the undulating green glow is a round, red stone structure. It forms tendrils, almost but not quite concealing what is inside- a pulsating white sphere. The structure is surrounded by many smaller stone platforms. The entire party rests unconscious on these. After a moment, Barret stand.)

Barret
"Oww... damn, man!"

(Cloud gets to his feet.)

Cloud
"Barret!?"

(The rest of the party comes to.)

Barret
"What...? So everyone's together again...?"

(Suddenly, a ring of white fire shoots from the center of the sphere. The party is levitated, struggling, into the air.)

"Uuuugh...!!"

(Sephiroth's face flashes in front of the camera for a split second. His theme begins to play as he vanishes, only to reappear, materializing from the center of the sphere.)

Cloud
"...Sephiroth!!"

(Another ring of white fire emanates from the sphere, driving the party further from Sephiroth.)

Barret
"Ugh...! Is this...... the true power of Sephiroth?"

Cid
"My... my body... I can't control my body...... Uuugh!?"

(Sephiroth draws the party nearer with his mental powers, only to torment them with another fire ring.)

Red XIII
"My front legs...... my hind legs...... my tail's about to tear off!!"

Cait Sith
"This is definitely not good...... He's way outta our league..."

Yuffie
"I, I don't know if I can... go on..."

(The screen flashes and the party spins in the air like toys.)

then goes on to talk about holy and aeris

Cloud
"Aerith's memories... Our memories..."
"We came... to tell you... our memories... Come Planet! Show us your answer!"
"And Sephiroth! To the settling of everything!!"

(The screen flashes. The rock structure and green haze begin to waver, undulate, and finally collapse in on themselves, leaving the party and Sephiroth suspended in darkness. Sephiroth draws the party in to him and transforms.)

(Boss battle with Bizzaro Sephiroth)

If you really are trying to accuse that the building somehow coincidently falls as Sephiroth and Cloud stands there and Sephiroth saying all those things then Sephiroth looking up at it, and somehow it magically falls.. i guess Sephiroth can see the future, either that or you're just trying too hard.

First of all he moves about 4 meters, 5 at most

I put it a bit above Kain because he is leaning forward and bending his legs

Second of all, if you actually watch it he LAUNCHES himself and moves with MOMENTUM, people can leap with momentum 4 meters in less then a second as well.

... Raziel basically just reached in and pulled out his heart rofl, what durability feats does Kain even have? Real feats, not ridiculous assumption ones.

Huh? Its not IN a battle.. there is no hitpoints there is no NUMBERs period, its just as gameplay as your video was.

How does it contradict it? Its the same.. The effects might be slightly different only because one game is half a decade older, heartless angel is exactly the same except in FF7 a little noise effect happens, whereas KH there is no special effect, Sephiroth both times teleports instant, except in KH Sephiroth teleports have a little flash thing when he teleports whereas FF7 he just instantly appears.

SO then answer me this, where have the spells gone to? Why have they never been heard of again? Why can't Kain use them again? Why aren't they in any other game?

The fact is, they were optional, had nothing to do with the story, and never actually stayed with the character.

Storywise, Cloud doesn't gain every weapon, thats why they are uncanon, in AC Cloud doesn't have any of the weapons, in DOC, Cloud doesn't have any of the weapons.

Soul Reaver is canon because it is canon to the storyline, however if there was an optional weapon that Kain could get like a wooden sword in BO1 and it had nothing to do with the story, then after BO1, that wooden sword is unheard of again, then that wooden sword, is uncanon.

You couldn't bust out an omnislash anytime you wanted in the game, nor could Cloud bust it out any time he wanted in the movie, or else he would've just used it to insta kill the SHM.

Sephiroth obviously was just tormenting Cloud, the SHM were using magic all the time, if the SHM were able to, obviously Sephiroth can, he just didn't want to, not only did it say Sephiroth didn't exert himself in the UOG, it was just plain obvious in the fight, as he kept him alive, and didn't use any of his powers.

Cool, Luke Cage can smash rocks as well.

oh i see, but their remnants? exactley, so your contradicting yourself, their part of sephiroth, and what has sephiroth shown? getting pwned by Cloud at the end ftw....

Well yeh, Kain would easily hold Holy, its just energy particles afterall, and no your inventing this again and again, Holy is by your assumption hard to hold, and where does it say Sephiroths TK was in front of holy? he could easily do the same as what Kain does to poeple, just grab them, he doesnt create a wall of TK to catch things, your argument here is slaughtered and now your being stubborn because theres nothing to say Holy is hard to hold, its power level is moot.

erm no id rather watch the video and see what happens instead of your in bracket interpretations:

YouTube video

he says "lets go everyone, one more time", why would he say this if their not all moving at him? (8:23) then they do move towards him...beating his TK. Then they start splitting up in groups, once again beating sephiroths TK.

No or its obvious, the sounds and everything of an enormous chunk of building, he just looks up at it and it doesnt fall when he looks up, he looks down at Cloud again and stands close to the building letting the rock fall past him, theres nothing in there about TK, the buildings crumbling apart, your the one trying too hard.

no, first of all, watch it properly, did not put the vid in properly:

YouTube video

Your wrong, he does not start off where you say he does, he starts off near moebius' staff which you can see by looking in comparison to the hole in the middle is far off from where your arrow goes, you cant see in that image where Kain starts because if you loo carefully, Kain is near the edge of the circle.

also L2 measure, thats not a metre your counting, thats far larger, infact thats nearly 2 1/2 metres give or take, thats nearly over Kains entire height and Kain is not a metre tall.

He moves faster than any human, and more than fast enough to escape any speed blitz from Loz and speed featless sephiroth, until you show me a human doing the same, ill reconsider but no human can move without moving their legs anyway as well, so your talking some madness.

I just showed you, Raziel has great strength level, and he did just "reach in" or did you forget they had just battled and Kain took a hit from the reaver into his chest as well.

Its hitting Cloud, thats more than enough to bring into play game mechanics to keep the player alive etc.

LMAO! your really really trying hard, sephiroth flashes into the world for about 6+ seconds and you call that as fast as KH? BS, it contradicts it and Sephiroth has never teleported that fast in the canon games.

if the developers decide it to be so thats why, ask them dude not me, they prob wanted to give kain new abilties and it would be hard enough to control the character if he had all BO 1 and 2 spell and abilities, all the abilities and control of his teleport (which players cant choose but he has shown to use in all games anyway) same with batflight, then add the moves he has in Defiance, you have to realise a player in a real time game wouldnt be able to use all these powers and it would be unbalanced since then Kain would not even try to use his sword to win, they even nerfed the sword in gameplay so you cant one hit people.

U cant prove they didnt stay with the character simply on the fact he never uses them after other games....that could be fault to 101 things including PIS, CIS or gameplay mechanics or developers balance, developers not interested in adding old abilties, and what i said above.

What are clouds weapons? if you just pick them up because their a random drop off a monster then no their uncanon, but if when he gains it its from a special character and Cloud actually says that he can use it, not just a game message saying "you have found etc etc", but Cloud or another story character saying something on the weapon.

What? ofc he does not have any of the weapons, how could he possibly carry 50+ weapons...that does not mean they dont excist somewhere in the game, or he has put them somewhere if they are spoken of like i said above

-continue from last page

weapons like the fire sword and wraith armor are canon, just because their not used in other games or Kain doesnt have 7 swords tied to his back doesnt mean they never excisted, but in VS characters can only use items specific to them over a duration and have been seen constintantly wearing, like the reaver/buster sword, that does not mean none of the items however are canon, you would just have to add them specially to the fight.

well you keep saying "in-game" does not matter ,so why not? as i said, the same reason why Kain doesnt use his powers, PIS, CIS and it would be overbearing.

Depends what magic, if their all useless time wasters, whats the point if your sword attacks are faster, he would try and cast a barrier and realise Cloud doesnt have to stand still in real time and gets his head cut off.

Originally posted by Terryc250
So... wheres the proof that no other vampires can learn the spells?

The big fact here is that, the spells are optional, not relavent to the story, Kain never is able to use them after the game, and never heard of again after BO1

If they had nothing to do with the story, and were optional, and never heard of again after the game, then they are uncanon.

Just told you 🙂

false, their canon if their in the game full stop and given acknowledgement by main story characters especially, a lot of things in fiction are optional, half of Dantes moves, half of Kratos', doesnt make them uncanon tho

Originally posted by Burning thought
oh i see, but their remnants? exactley, so your contradicting yourself, their part of sephiroth, and what has sephiroth shown? getting pwned by Cloud at the end ftw....

They're WEAK remnants, they are NOT part of sephiroth, they were created by Sephiroth.


Well yeh, Kain would easily hold Holy, its just energy particles afterall, and no your inventing this again and again, Holy is by your assumption hard to hold, and where does it say Sephiroths TK was in front of holy? he could easily do the same as what Kain does to poeple, just grab them, he doesnt create a wall of TK to catch things, your argument here is slaughtered and now your being stubborn because theres nothing to say Holy is hard to hold, its power level is moot.

.. Kain can hold holy? Holy is not just energy particles, its a powerful energy force, it was stated a number of times, not only in the FF7 games, but in the novels that Sephiroth held Holy back with his willpower, stopping its movement. Wow, my argument is being slaughtered? Your intelligence its becoming a laugh. Thats like saying a a detonated nuke be easy to stop with TK, energy of a powerful force IS hard to stop.


erm no id rather watch the video and see what happens instead of your in bracket interpretations:

YouTube video

he says "lets go everyone, one more time", why would he say this if their not all moving at him? (8:23) then they do move towards him...beating his TK. Then they start splitting up in groups, once again beating sephiroths TK.


Erm, did i say it was MY bracket interpretation? No, its bracket interpretation the actual SCRIPT genious.
http://www.vtutorials.com/phoenixgenesis/ff7/ff7script/part20/ff7pt20sc141.html

And if you actually played the game Cloud doesnt say "lets go everyone, one more time" haha

You get to choose between, "Lets go everyone" and "One more time"

Because before that you picked GROUPS for the teams, "Lets go everyone" is to gather the team

Choosing "one more time" lets you go back to the menu and re-pick the teams.


No or its obvious, the sounds and everything of an enormous chunk of building, he just looks up at it and it doesnt fall when he looks up, he looks down at Cloud again and stands close to the building letting the rock fall past him, theres nothing in there about TK, the buildings crumbling apart, your the one trying too hard.

Are you serious?
Watch at 3:35
YouTube video

I guess Sephiroth can see the future, and just made it look like he did it to be cool.. yeah or not.


no, first of all, watch it properly, did not put the vid in properly:

YouTube video

Your wrong, he does not start off where you say he does, he starts off near moebius' staff which you can see by looking in comparison to the hole in the middle is far off from where your arrow goes, you cant see in that image where Kain starts because if you loo carefully, Kain is near the edge of the circle.

also L2 measure, thats not a metre your counting, thats far larger, infact thats nearly 2 1/2 metres give or take, thats nearly over Kains entire height and Kain is not a metre tall.


Umm, Moebius' staff is Just off screen to where i put the line, because that was the direction he came from.

No thats not 2 and a half metres, that measurement is the exact same size of Kain, i used photoshop and just flipped it, unless your trying to say Kain is well over 8 feet which is BS

Those measurements should actually be 0, 1.8, 3.6 meters away, Kain moved roughly about 4 meters.

How i got it was:
-estimate Kains height is 6 feet tall, which is 1.8 meters.
-Find where moebius staff is, should be at the end of the circle, but which side of the end of the circle? The direction of where Kain comes from, whcih is where i put the marker
-now use the estimate of Kains height which is 1.8 meters, and keep going in the direction where Kain comes from to where he stops, and its roughly 3.6 - 4 meters.


He moves faster than any human, and more than fast enough to escape any speed blitz from Loz and speed featless sephiroth, until you show me a human doing the same, ill reconsider but no human can move without moving their legs anyway as well, so your talking some madness.

I've yet to see Kain move faster then any normal human, if he does, not by much, Loz would EASILY speedblitz any human effortlessly, Kain would get speedblitz by Loz, Sephiroth is by FAR Loz' superior, and would effortlessly blitz' Kain as well.


I just showed you, Raziel has great strength level, and he did just "reach in" or did you forget they had just battled and Kain took a hit from the reaver into his chest as well.

Yeah and Cloud has great durability, but did it matter to Sephiroths sword?


Its hitting Cloud, thats more than enough to bring into play game mechanics to keep the player alive etc.

So if Cloud gets hit outside of a battle, its just game mechanics to keep him alive even though no HP, or number value is involved outside of battles, but if its Raziel moving things, its not gameplay mechanics, or if its Kain getting hit its not gameplay mechanics either? Wow i like your logic on that one.


LMAO! your really really trying hard, sephiroth flashes into the world for about 6+ seconds and you call that as fast as KH? BS, it contradicts it and Sephiroth has never teleported that fast in the canon games.

..Sephiroth appears instantly, wtf does the flashing effect have to do with anything? He can flash for the rest of his life and it wouldnt matter, what matters is his teleport was instant.


if the developers decide it to be so thats why, ask them dude not me, they prob wanted to give kain new abilties and it would be hard enough to control the character if he had all BO 1 and 2 spell and abilities, all the abilities and control of his teleport (which players cant choose but he has shown to use in all games anyway) same with batflight, then add the moves he has in Defiance, you have to realise a player in a real time game wouldnt be able to use all these powers and it would be unbalanced since then Kain would not even try to use his sword to win, they even nerfed the sword in gameplay so you cant one hit people.

If Kain had them ANY of the spells, then they would show that he does, but have they? No, even if they're not usable it could've been possible the creators showed that Kain has them by letting him use it in a cutscene or something.

But like most optional things, they don't stick with the character canonically.

You can't one hit kill people with swords in just about any game.

If Kain was so uber powerful they wouldn't make him fight regular humans as common enemies, or atleast make him fight an army of humans at a time.

Like Dante fights demons, and finaly fantasy characters fight huge monsters.


U cant prove they didnt stay with the character simply on the fact he never uses them after other games....that could be fault to 101 things including PIS, CIS or gameplay mechanics or developers balance, developers not interested in adding old abilties, and what i said above.

Since when do optional things ever stay with the character canonically?


What are clouds weapons? if you just pick them up because their a random drop off a monster then no their uncanon, but if when he gains it its from a special character and Cloud actually says that he can use it, not just a game message saying "you have found etc etc", but Cloud or another story character saying something on the weapon.

If he gains the weapon in the canon story, then its canon, if he buys them or finds them from some random shop or picks them up off some monster, and had nothing to do with the story them its not canon.


What? ofc he does not have any of the weapons, how could he possibly carry 50+ weapons...that does not mean they dont excist somewhere in the game, or he has put them somewhere if they are spoken of like i said above [/B]

the 50++ weapons aren't canon, the only weapon that is canon to CLoud was his buster sword.

der r sum serious kain nut huggers ere (dnt correct my spelling, dnt giv a damn) also i may add, master cheif and ryu hayabusa.

in d past i use to see alot of pyron and dante nut huggers (but dey r more acceptable coz of how powerful dey realy r)

not much of a contribution to the debate but more of me sayin my thoughts on dis forum.

not really, the Kain nut huggers as you call em are prob the only ones who know the LOK games, the rest of the haters like yourself simply dont have a clue and are interested in the beautiful flashy graphics you get in games like DMC which i have played all of (except DMC 4) and its clear to me that because many games like DMC are more obvious in feats (like comics, well not as bad as comics but in DMC, GOW games the feats are obvious, you dont have to look into it none so simple people can see them), in LOK you have to look deeper than just someone stabbing another, oh and look deeper than the latest 1 or 2 games.

But as i said before Fascist crusader ime not interested, these threads are for debates, but Terry for emotional reasons ime not taking part anymore, just look at my post before your latest one, its basicaly the same stuff.

Originally posted by ScreamPaste

Oh no you didn't! 😠

Oh, yes I did. :} This thread needs to be redone, there's new blood in Sephiroth's corner and BT's gotten more creative with his interpretation of Kain.

kain loses safer destroys the sun and kain's planet with super nova. no chance for kain since luigi beat him badly and luigi cant beat sephiroth.

And Seph lost to Dante.

sephiroth would not lose to dante. get real

I think he did in the Seph vs Dante topic, soooo...

AC sephiroth??? i didnt read the thread but AC sephiroth is a weakling compared to the ff7 final boss sephiroth. dante wouldnt stand a chance against either. maybe cloud but not sephiroth.

Dante>Cloud. And Cloud technially can't stand a chance against Sephiroth as well

yea dante would beat cloud but not by sword skill alone. devil trigger.

He wouldn't need DT. Nero>Cloud, and Dante would fvck with Cloud, and beat his ass like he did Nero.

cloud would **** nero up. if we are talking sword skills. if cloud had materia vs nero demon shit then idk

So, who do you guys think wins, and why!?

Lol, no. DB along would destroy Cloud. End of story. As for sword skills, Cloud might win that.

EDIT: Nero, because of his Devil Bringer.

I meant in this thread. Sephiroth of Kain?

Sephiroth has his infamous theory fueling will, and Kain has his.. misinterpretted status as a magic regulator.