Well, his exceptional force powers (to the extent of being able to rip an engine out of a star destroyer,) the ability to wedge himself in the heart of the force to block Raynar Thul's power channeled with the Kliks (Which essentially made him immovable), his combat abilities (Slicing through an army of Vong to eliminate numerous elite slayers on his own when Kyp freaking Durron couldn't even take an injured and dying one, is described as moving so insanely fast, he might as well have been wielding twenty sabers in place of one, took out Shimrra in a straight up fight, as well in the Black Fleet crisis, having enough power to:
A. rebuild his father's CASTLE and then shatter it piece by piece using only the force
B. Cloaking an entire planet from sight and the Force and then leaving it in a state to last forever.
Not counting the boosts he's receive from increasing his knowledge from the Tedryn Holocron, Arca's holocron and many others. When it comes to it, Luke is a monster by NJO
I'm going to play devil's advocate here...
Well, his exceptional force powers (to the extent of being able to rip an engine out of a star destroyer,)
Yoda has displayed the ability to keep a room pressurized during a breach as in Dark Rendenvouz. While no doubt ripping a Star Destroyer's engine out is impressive (Assuming here that the context is not PIS, or misconstrued; I would like to hear much more about the specifics if you would please), Yoda could potentially do the same. He could lift an X-Wing that was partially submerged in a swamp, throw around senate pods which must weight a good ton or so, and catch the crane Dooku threw in AotC. He also does a fine job with the missile in DR, too.
the ability to wedge himself in the heart of the force to block Raynar Thul's power channeled with the Kliks (Which essentially made him immovable),
According to Nebaris' post, this was a plot device. While I note that Nebaris is not the most respected individual here, I think this instance should be properly explained. Was Luke boosted? Was it his own raw power stacked? How does this apply to a Force battle against two noted powerful Jedi Masters.
his combat abilities (Slicing through an army of Vong to eliminate numerous elite slayers on his own when Kyp freaking Durron couldn't even take an injured and dying one, is described as moving so insanely fast, he might as well have been wielding twenty sabers in place of one, took out Shimrra in a straight up fight,
Again, Nebaris' fresh take on this makes me doubt. I would like to hear more specifics. Nebaris countered that the Vong's primary advantage is being unable to be properly sensed in the Force, but in this instance Luke was boosted and could actually sense them, making their one advantage null. What do you say to this? Likewise, Kyp didn't have this same advantage, or so I've been told. And how can we substantiate Shimrra as a fighter? What were the circumstances of the fight? Was Luke boosted then too?
as well in the Black Fleet crisis, having enough power to:
A. rebuild his father's CASTLE and then shatter it piece by piece using only the force
B. Cloaking an entire planet from sight and the Force and then leaving it in a state to last forever.
1. What are the circumstances? How long did this take? Why is building a castle and then destroying it somehow better than the TK displayed by PT Jedi Masters? Dooku could rip chunks from a ceiling, break a huge crane in seconds, Yoda could deflect missiles, hold in oxygen from the incredibly strong pull of space, and lift an X-Wing as easily as breath. None of them have ever had to really build anything using the Force, but what's to say they didn't have the ability? Qui-Gon and padawan Obi-Wan actually deactivate droids internally using the Force in TPM, and Qui-Gon manipulates rolling dice as easy as can be.
2. What are the conditions of this cloaking ability? What are its limitations? How difficult was it supposed to be? We see people making massive illusions all the time, from Naga Sadow to the weakling Aleema. Can they defeat Yoda and Mace by virtue of having a unique ability?
Not counting the boosts he's receive from increasing his knowledge from the Tedryn Holocron, Arca's holocron and many others. When it comes to it, Luke is a monster by NJO
Substantiate the knowledge gained from these sources. How does it compare with Yoda having the entire Jedi library at his disposal for 800 plus years? How can this knowledge assist him in defeating both Mace Windu and Yoda at once?
A lot of questions need to be asked, before the fight can just be given over to one side or the other. Burden of proof, if you will. I'd like thinks properly substantiated, with sources and specifics, not "I read somewhere" or "someone told me" type answers, because we all tend to remember things differently. I had forgotten portions of Shatterpoint and I read it two months ago.
No offense, Janus, but the point regarding Darth Vader's fortress is ridiculous. None of the feats of telekinesis that you've cited compares to reconstructing an enormous castle with only the Force and then destroying it, handling the weight involved and the precision and control. But I don't recall the length of time it took.
Edit: The Yuuzhan Vong are anamalous. Essentially, they exist within the Force, but cannot be sensed on the level of the Force that the Jedi were functioning, thus Vergere's cryptic remarks and Jacen's conclusion that the Force must be "expanded".
Which makes your objection moot, Escape. If you don't even know the specifics of it, how can you call my concern invalid? If you sat Qui-Gon Jinn down, he could likely remake a castle from existing materials. Yoda? Most definitely. The amount of Force power and precision required to divert an oncoming missile or deactivate a droid, or even still stabilize a vacuum is goddamn impressive. The latter feat Yoda did instantly while in combat, no less.
Again, substantiate how the building and destruction of Vader's castle was monumentally better than the respective feats and powers of Mace and Yoda. Then further substantiate how it has a bearing on this fight using source.
If you can't do that, don't support the claim. This is pretty evident, don't you think?
If you sat Qui-Gon Jinn down, he could likely remake a castle from existing materials.
Sure. If you give him a few days and the services of the Republic's finest construction company. All I don't know the specifics of is the time it took, not exactly lagging on anything else. Now, in the meantime, I'm sure you'll make a spectacular argument for Qui-Gon Jinn's telekinesis and how it compares. I'll take a look when I get back.
Originally posted by Janus Marius
I'm going to play devil's advocate here...Yoda has displayed the ability to keep a room pressurized during a breach as in Dark Rendenvouz. While no doubt ripping a Star Destroyer's engine out is impressive (Assuming here that the context is not PIS, or misconstrued; I would like to hear much more about the specifics if you would please), Yoda could potentially do the same. He could lift an X-Wing that was partially submerged in a swamp, throw around senate pods which must weight a good ton or so, and catch the crane Dooku threw in AotC. He also does a fine job with the missile in DR, too.
According to Nebaris' post, this was a plot device. While I note that Nebaris is not the most respected individual here, I think this instance should be properly explained. Was Luke boosted? Was it his own raw power stacked? How does this apply to a Force battle against two noted powerful Jedi Masters.
Again, Nebaris' fresh take on this makes me doubt. I would like to hear more specifics. Nebaris countered that the Vong's primary advantage is being unable to be properly sensed in the Force, but in this instance Luke was boosted and could actually sense them, making their one advantage null.
What do you say to this? Likewise, Kyp didn't have this same advantage, or so I've been told.
And how can we substantiate Shimrra as a fighter? What were the circumstances of the fight? Was Luke boosted then too?
1. What are the circumstances? How long did this take? Why is building a castle and then destroying it somehow better than the TK displayed by PT Jedi Masters? Dooku could rip chunks from a ceiling, break a huge crane in seconds, Yoda could deflect missiles, hold in oxygen from the incredibly strong pull of space, and lift an X-Wing as easily as breath. None of them have ever had to really build anything using the Force, but what's to say they didn't have the ability? Qui-Gon and padawan Obi-Wan actually deactivate droids internally using the Force in TPM, and Qui-Gon manipulates rolling dice as easy as can be.
2. What are the conditions of this cloaking ability? What are its limitations? How difficult was it supposed to be? We see people making massive illusions all the time, from Naga Sadow to the weakling Aleema. Can they defeat Yoda and Mace by virtue of having a unique ability?
Substantiate the knowledge gained from these sources. How does it compare with Yoda having the entire Jedi library at his disposal for 800 plus years? How can this knowledge assist him in defeating both Mace Windu and Yoda at once?
A lot of questions need to be asked, before the fight can just be given over to one side or the other. Burden of proof, if you will. I'd like thinks properly substantiated, with sources and specifics, not "I read somewhere" or "someone told me" type answers, because we all tend to remember things differently. I had forgotten portions of Shatterpoint and I read it two months ago.
Originally posted by LightsnakeWe only see him destroy four or five, IIRC.
He is also able, with a single gesture, annihilate an army of advanced battle droids.
He is also able to create a practical fleet of illusionary ships. (Dark Nest for the latter, Black Fleet for the former)I'm pretty sure he only created one replica of Mara's ship, and the effort burned him out so much that his features were temporarily distorted to the point that he looked like Palpatine.
Originally posted by Faunus
We only see him destroy four or five, IIRC.
I'm pretty sure he only created one replica of Mara's ship, and the effort burned him out so much that his features were temporarily distorted to the point that he looked like Palpatine.
Originally posted by Faunus
I'm pretty sure he only created one replica of Mara's ship, and the effort burned him out so much that his features were temporarily distorted to the point that he looked like Palpatine.
You're correct; I purchased the entire Swarm War trilogy, read two thirds of the first book, got bored, and stopped. It's now collecting dust and other strange organisms on by bookshelf. Anyways, Skywalker was in immediate danger and had to quickly summon an illusion of the ship, and unfamiliarity with the technique combined with the sudden demand for its use began to cause considerable damage to his body, drawing on more energy than his body was conditioned to use, and the book said "according to Mara, this is what had happened to Palpatine". Though Wookipedia mentions that he later mastered the technique in the trilogy to the point that such an effect did not take place.
If even half of that shit listed under his Force powers is true, I have to concede. That's just a ridiculous laundry list of feats.
Originally posted by Janus Marius
Luke's profile.If even half of that shit listed under his Force powers is true, I have to concede. That's just a ridiculous laundry list of feats.
I've been meaning to ask you, Janus, what you think of two particular characters: Gilad Pellaeon and Boba Fett.