So much for the definition of a Christian being one who follows Christ, Grand Moff.
You're telling me that I should go confess my sins to a flawed creature who is also a sinner and that is supposed to take the place of confessing my sins directly to God and then repenting? You're telling me I should pray to saints who really were more flawed creatures? You're telling me that Pope John Paul the Second, who believed that non-Catholics could get into Heaven and Pope Benedict, who believes only Catholics can get into Heaven BOTH were selected by God to be His representatives here on Earth?
Don't dismiss someone who is a Christian yet not a Catholic. Our love and obedience to God is just as strong as anyone else's.
Originally posted by willofthewisp
So much for the definition of a Christian being one who follows Christ, Grand Moff.
>>Actually, that is the precise definition of a Christian. At the same time, one ought to be extremely careful to examine one's conscience very carefully, perhaps even on a daily basis, against Our Lord and Saviour's chilling words in Matthew's Gospel, the seventh chapter, beginning the twenty first verse:
21 Not every one that saith to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven: but he that doth the will of my Father who is in heaven, he shall enter into the kingdom of heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day: Lord, Lord, have not we prophesied in thy name, and cast out devils in thy name, and done many miracles in thy name? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, you that work iniquity. 24 Every one therefore that heareth these my words, and doth them, shall be likened to a wise man that built his house upon a rock, 25 And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and they beat upon that house, and it fell not, for it was founded on a rock. 26 And every one that heareth these my words and doth them not, shall be like a foolish man that built his house upon the sand, 27 And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and they beat upon that house, and it fell, and great was the fall thereof.
Which is the house that is founded upon a rock? It is the Catholic Church, which Christ calls "my Church". If one is a Christian, one follows Christ, one obeys Christ, one cleaves to His Church which is founded upon the rock (Peter).
Originally posted by willofthewisp
You're telling me that I should go confess my sins to a flawed creature who is also a sinner and that is supposed to take the place of confessing my sins directly to God and then repenting?
>>No, it is instead Christ Who is telling you exactly that. I beg you to consider how dangerous it is that you should publicly scorn His commands, given directly to you, below:
John Chapter 20
19 Now when it was late the same day, the first of the week, and the doors were shut, where the disciples were gathered together, for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood in the midst and said to them: Peace be to you. 20 And when he had said this, he shewed them his hands and his side. The disciples therefore were glad, when they saw the Lord. 21 He said therefore to them again: Peace be to you. As the Father hath sent me, I also send you. 22 When he had said this, he breathed on them; and he said to them: Receive ye the Holy Ghost. 23 Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them: and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained.
Isn't that remarkable? You have reasoned your way to a religion where it were ridiculous to confess your sins to a "flawed creature". Christ, remarkably enough, has just told you that He has empowered these flawed creatures" with His Own power not only to forgive your sins, but even to retain them.
What will you do now, I wonder?
So often, we are confronted with the fact that our best thinking puts us in direct opposition to Christ the Lord.
It is my sincere prayer that you will renounce your best thinking, and obey the Lord.
Originally posted by willofthewisp
You're telling me I should pray to saints who really were more flawed creatures?
>>It is Jesus Christ who commands you to hear the Church, which teaches infallibly, with His Own infallibility. It is apparent that you would prefer a religion in which there were no flawed creatures to get in the way of your personal communion with Jesus.
It is perfectly understandable that you should find this preferable. We all enjoy creating our own religions, it is so much easier that way.
It is necessary to point out, however, that Jesus Christ did not command this. He instead commanded you to obey the Church, in the person of His apostles and their successors, who down to this very day continue to exercise, as flawed creatures, the flawless and uncreated Power of Jesus Christ unto salvation.
Amen.
Originally posted by willofthewisp
You're telling me that Pope John Paul the Second, who believed that non-Catholics could get into Heaven and Pope Benedict, who believes only Catholics can get into Heaven BOTH were selected by God to be His representatives here on Earth?
>>You are simply mistaken in your understanding above. There is not a smidgeon of difference between the teachings of the two Popes on this matter. It remains an infallible, unchangeable dogma of the Catholic Church that outside the Church, there is no salvation whatsoever.
It is possible to speculate on what means God might choose to employ, to unite a soul to the Catholic Church through extra-sacramental means.
It is also possible to speculale on what means God might have chosen to save a soul not aboard Noah's Ark when the floods came upon the Earth. It would certainly be foolish to maintain "God could not save anyone outside the Ark, if He chose to do so".
It is also important to recall, that He did not in fact choose to do so.
The point being, of course, that one ought, all things considered, to climb aboard the Ark while there is still time.
Originally posted by willofthewisp
Don't dismiss someone who is a Christian yet not a Catholic. Our love and obedience to God is just as strong as anyone else's.
>>To the contrary, not only do I not dismiss you, I have a deep respect for you. It is certainly possible to be obedient to God, and yet through ignorance remain outside the Ark. In such a case, God's mercy and grace will certainly bring that soul to the Ark, should the soul truly desire to obey God, and not obey its own best arguments from Scripture instead.
the history of the catholic church is filled with persecution, corrpution, open manipulation of teachings for empowerment and political purposes as well as straight out denial of facts proven later. so much for god appointed men, its been filled with all sorts of assholes in positions of authority over the years. the church was NOT founded by christ as it was not founded by peter, it is PAUL, the person, who perhaps WROTE the doctrine on crucifixion and its understanding as christianity sees it today which wasnt there in the actual words of jesus as well as many other inventions like the trinity and the rapture.
having said that, in this day and age, where the zeolot portestant christianity in america seems to have practically shut its ears to any logical criticism and is affecting the whole world as a power now, the many milder parts and extensions of the catholic church actually seem preferrable to the alternative.
lol. i cant WAIT for JIA to start debating with TRANSINFINITUM, clash of the ignorant titans COMMENCE!
Originally posted by leonheartmm
the history of the catholic church is filled with persecution, corrpution, open manipulation of teachings for empowerment and political purposes as well as straight out denial of facts proven later.
>>Gosh. Sounds mighty serious. Perhaps you might share one of these "straight out denials of facts proven later"? :-)
Originally posted by leonheartmm
so much for god appointed men, its been filled with all sorts of assholes in positions of authority over the years.
>>It is certainly true, that where one finds men, one is pretty likely to find assholes. As Christ said: "I did not come to save the righteous, but sinners". I always chuckle when I think of someone reading those words, and imagining themselves to fall into the first category :-)
Originally posted by leonheartmm
the church was NOT founded by christ as it was not founded by peter,
>>Sorry, pal. Perhaps you forgot to consult the historical record in this regard. You can find it in Matthew's Gospel, the 16th chapter, beginning with the 18th verse:
18 And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. 19 And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven.
Originally posted by leonheartmm
it is PAUL, the person, who perhaps WROTE the doctrine on crucifixion and its understanding as christianity sees it today which wasnt there in the actual words of jesus as well as many other inventions like the trinity and the rapture.
>>All Scripture is inspired by God, and hence has always been accepted as authoritative by the Church. Paul wrote nothing apart from the Holy Spirit, and hence only unbelievers imagine that they can attempt to pit one Scripture over and against another. As for the Trinity, it is clearly taught in Scripture, indeed it is the subject of Christ's final Great Commission:
Matthew 28:
18 And Jesus coming, spoke to them, saying: All power is given to me in heaven and in earth. 19 Going therefore, teach ye all nations: baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost. 20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you. And behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world.
Originally posted by leonheartmm
having said that, in this day and age, where the zeolot portestant christianity in america seems to have practically shut its ears to any logical criticism and is affecting the whole world as a power now, the many milder parts and extensions of the catholic church actually seem preferrable to the alternative.
>>It would appear you like your Christianity "mild" and compromised. I have bad news for you. The Catholic Church is a huge disappointment to the worldlings, always and everywhere. Certainly she wishes to extend the medicine of mercy, but she can never compromise one iota of the Revelation of Jesus Christ.
Please believe me when I tell you, all those who willfully reject her teaching will perish.
straight out denials of fact? well trans lets see here......hmmm where shall we start down the long rode of catholic follies? the inquisition, the crusades, the churchs treatment of galileo, of all scientists, martin luther and his 99 thesis about the corruptness of the church. i could go on but id love to see u flail a bit 😄
Gosh. Sounds mighty serious. Perhaps you might share one of these "straight out denials of facts proven later"? :-)
lmao, you sure you wanna go there? creation of the world/age of the world, evolution, earth not being the centre of the universe, there are a million different things
>>It is certainly true, that where one finds men, one is pretty likely to find assholes. As Christ said: "I did not come to save the righteous, but sinners". I always chuckle when I think of someone reading those words, and imagining themselves to fall into the first category :-)
yes, but then why shud you follow the church, if it is led by assholes, which YOU claim, are divinely guided and you are DIVINELY asked to beleive in them??? and the church that THEY represent,
>>Sorry, pal. Perhaps you forgot to consult the historical record in this regard. You can find it in Matthew's Gospel, the 16th chapter, beginning with the 18th verse:
lmao, the BIBLE is NOT historical record. FAR from it. it contains absurdities and contradictions from history as well as contradictions inside itself
>>All Scripture is inspired by God, and hence has always been accepted as authoritative by the Church. Paul wrote nothing apart from the Holy Spirit, and hence only unbelievers imagine that they can attempt to pit one Scripture over and against another. As for the Trinity, it is clearly taught in Scripture, indeed it is the subject of Christ's final Great Commission:Matthew 28:
then why dont you start accepting the quran now, or the naz hamadi scrolls, they are also scriptues, and their authors also claim to have been inspired by god. how many of these GOD inspired scriptures were thrown out by constantine/paul and the church at its formation???? the word trinity doesnt even exist in the bible{and definately not the red letter bible} as well as many of the references were thrown out by bible scholars but reinstated after certain church denominations threatened to part ways with bigger churches as well as the catholic church and protest.
>>It would appear you like your Christianity "mild" and compromised. I have bad news for you. The Catholic Church is a huge disappointment to the worldlings, always and everywhere. Certainly she wishes to extend the medicine of mercy, but she can never compromise one iota of the Revelation of Jesus Christ.Please believe me when I tell you, all those who willfully reject her teaching will perish.
lol, i dont like christianity at all, but i merely prefer the milder forms to the more extreme ones. the church has many a times compromised on the teachings of christ, like the time in the middle ages when pardons were being granted for money by the church officials. or simply the fact that you dont notice that the church has many a times deined the teachings of jesus concerning love and always concentrating on the teachings of the church concerning hate{oftne not of christ's mouth} .
i do not beleive you. all men perish due to age. it has nuthing to do with the church or any other silly organisation. death is a simpe fact of life. i will experience it, just the same as you.
Originally posted by leonheartmmbtw if god is real i hope that i either get into heaven or cease to exist. because if god is truly real and truly created sin, i dont deserve to suffer for his cruel joke
lmao, you sure you wanna go there? creation of the world/age of the world, evolution, earth not being the centre of the universe, there are a million different thingsyes, but then why shud you follow the church, if it is led by assholes, which YOU claim, are divinely guided and you are DIVINELY asked to beleive in them??? and the church that THEY represent,
lmao, the BIBLE is NOT historical record. FAR from it. it contains absurdities and contradictions from history as well as contradictions inside itself
then why dont you start accepting the quran now, or the naz hamadi scrolls, they are also scriptues, and their authors also claim to have been inspired by god. how many of these GOD inspired scriptures were thrown out by constantine/paul and the church at its formation???? the word trinity doesnt even exist in the bible{and definately not the red letter bible} as well as many of the references were thrown out by bible scholars but reinstated after certain church denominations threatened to part ways with bigger churches as well as the catholic church and protest.
lol, i dont like christianity at all, but i merely prefer the milder forms to the more extreme ones. the church has many a times compromised on the teachings of christ, like the time in the middle ages when pardons were being granted for money by the church officials. or simply the fact that you dont notice that the church has many a times deined the teachings of jesus concerning love and always concentrating on the teachings of the church concerning hate{oftne not of christ's mouth} .
i do not beleive you. all men perish due to age. it has nuthing to do with the church or any other silly organisation. death is a simpe fact of life. i will experience it, just the same as you.
[QUOTE=10660332]Originally posted by Transfinitum
[B]>>Actually, that is the precise definition of a Christian.
Yes, it is the definition of a Christian. I respect your faith, Trans, don't get me wrong. But I have never in my life heard of a Catholic that did not believe Protestants were following God's Word, and I know many Catholics personally. I don't believe I'm outside the kingdom of Heaven as you have implied. I have felt the Holy Spirit and truly feel close to God not only privately in prayer, but also at church. I have a profound respect in church and I attend. It renews my faith and gives me a spiritual counselor and a spiritual community. In no way does it, or my conscience, tell me I am doing without something.
Sorry for the jacked-up quote. I must have backspaced too much.
Originally posted by leonheartmm
lmao, you sure you wanna go there? creation of the world/age of the world, evolution, earth not being the centre of the universe, there are a million different thingsyes, but then why shud you follow the church, if it is led by assholes, which YOU claim, are divinely guided and you are DIVINELY asked to beleive in them??? and the church that THEY represent,
lmao, the BIBLE is NOT historical record. FAR from it. it contains absurdities and contradictions from history as well as contradictions inside itself
then why dont you start accepting the quran now, or the naz hamadi scrolls, they are also scriptues, and their authors also claim to have been inspired by god. how many of these GOD inspired scriptures were thrown out by constantine/paul and the church at its formation???? the word trinity doesnt even exist in the bible{and definately not the red letter bible} as well as many of the references were thrown out by bible scholars but reinstated after certain church denominations threatened to part ways with bigger churches as well as the catholic church and protest.
lol, i dont like christianity at all, but i merely prefer the milder forms to the more extreme ones. the church has many a times compromised on the teachings of christ, like the time in the middle ages when pardons were being granted for money by the church officials. or simply the fact that you dont notice that the church has many a times deined the teachings of jesus concerning love and always concentrating on the teachings of the church concerning hate{oftne not of christ's mouth} .
i do not beleive you. all men perish due to age. it has nuthing to do with the church or any other silly organisation. death is a simpe fact of life. i will experience it, just the same as you.
blasphemy.
Originally posted by leonheartmm
yes, but then why shud you follow the church, if it is led by assholes, which YOU claim, are divinely guided and you are DIVINELY asked to beleive in them??? and the church that THEY represent,lmao, the BIBLE is NOT historical record. FAR from it. it contains absurdities and contradictions from history as well as contradictions inside itself
According to archaeologists Nicholas Rau and Tudor Parfitt, the artifacts excavated and dated to have been from Biblical times support what the Bible says about history. Why don't you back up your claim that the Bible does not accurately portray history with some passages? Much of the Old Testament really doesn't discuss God and is more or less a recording of historical events. Want to contest those? Or is it just your opinion that the Bible is full of historical contradictions, much like it's your opinion the church is full of assholes? I'm sure you're talking about the Catholic church and I'm not Catholic, but it's so great that you've met all 860 MILLION Catholics in the world and have judged them all to be assholes. You have to tell me how you network, because I don't think I know 860 MILLION people, let alone 860 MILLION CATHOLICS. Wow, when you take into consideration the fact that 2.1 BILLION people in the world call themselves Christians, that makes a lot of assholes, doesn't it? I guess such a varied, diverse group of people deserve to be stereotyped and each one of them dismissed as deluded...yep, all 2.1 BILLION.
Catholic, only because most Catholics I know don't give a shit about all that "Kill the gays" crap. I know there are Protestant churches which are very liberal but i can't get over all the bible thumping ones. It creeps me out. You walk into a Protestant church and its so friendly and inviting, but the Pastor might very well have a gay or muslim hating agenda. At least when you walk into a catholic church you know what's up.
Originally posted by chickenlover98
straight out denials of fact? well trans lets see here......hmmm where shall we start down the long rode of catholic follies? the inquisition, the crusades, the churchs treatment of galileo, of all scientists, martin luther and his 99 thesis about the corruptness of the church. i could go on but id love to see u flail a bit \
>>Well I will be delighted to accomodate you, just as soon as you post an example of a "straight out denial of fact later proven to be true".
Remember, you must first provide evidence of:
1. A fact
2. The Church's denial of that fact
3. Subsequent proof of the fact.
Good luck.
I'll be waiting :-)