King Ommin & Warb Null vs. AOTC Kenobi and Anakin

Originally posted by Allankles
Considering they both took Dooku one on one I consider them good/decent displays.

Logical fallacy, much?

And it's amazing how you picked the least relevant point for Null. Null is no Dooku, he isn't even on Maul's level or do you have evidence to the contrary?

If he got the jump on him why was Null able to apply a dark side attack on Ulic (which Ulic resisted)? Once Ulic got into a saber-to-saber contenst Null was a pushover.

4 Jedi not comparable to Ulic let alone Anakin or Obi Wan. Plenty of characters in Star Wars have held their own against lesser force users. Case in point Palpatine destroying 3 Jedi Masters in less than 10 seconds. We know that Mace was able to put up (by himself) a much better fight.

Way to forget that Obi Wan acquited himself better than Qui Gin Jin in the one-on-one duel and slayed Maul (as a bonus). Did Maul's overconfidence help? Yes! But it only became a factor after the duel was over.

Even more than that Anakin really pushed Dooku (Dooku expended far more effort than he liked) and Obi Wan got beat by Dooku's strength, not so much his skill (Dooku used his superior strength in the saber lock).

This is desperation, bias, or sheer stupidity; you can pick one.

Dooku was the only living master of a form designed for lightsaber duels, had over twice Kenobi's level of experience, and was vastly more powerful. To say that he wasn't considerably above him in dueling skill would be, again, a statement born of desperation, bias, or sheer stupidity.

The one thing Dooku wouldn't have had on Kenobi would be physical strength. You really think an eighty year-old man is stronger than a thirty-five year-old?

Is Obi-Wan really 35 at the time of Rots?

And it's amazing how you picked the least relevant point for Null. Null is no Dooku, he isn't even on Maul's level or do you have evidence to the contrary?

You mean the same Maul who lasted all of 16 seconds against a pissed-off Padawan before having his weapon broken and being put on his ass?

Impressive...most impressive.

4 Jedi not comparable to Ulic let alone Anakin or Obi Wan. Plenty of characters in Star Wars have held their own against lesser force users. Case in point Palpatine destroying 3 Jedi Masters in less than 10 seconds. We know that Mace was able to put up (by himself) a much better fight.

Well let's use your logic.
Those 3 Jedi Masters aren't comparable to Ulic thus the feat is not that impressive.

Bias against Exar's era? Nope. Some characters are elite in any era (Obi Wan and Anakin) and some are not (Warb Null).

AOTC Anakin and Obi-Wan are not elite. Not even close.

Futhermore using Dooku's achievement as a counter argument doesn't do much to support Null's chances - he got beat even more embarrasingly by Ulic.

You mean Ulic who used a surprise attack?
Dooku disposed of Anakin even more embarrassingly in AOTC because he shot Anakin with lightning Ani wasn't ready for.
Obi-Wan embarrassed Maul by getting the drop on him and cutting him in half.
Vader embarrassed Sidious by getting the drop on him and thrwoing him down a hole.

Even more than that Anakin really pushed Dooku (Dooku expended far more effort than he liked) and Obi Wan got beat by Dooku's strength, not so much his skill (Dooku used his superior strength in the saber lock).

It's called Force power. Yoda does the same with Dooku and Sidious and no way the muppet is stronger than either of them physically.

And Dooku could easily destroy AOTC Obi-Wan with skill alone.

Originally posted by Faunus
That's idiotic. Ood Bnar took on Exar Kun by himself, therefore the battle was impressive.

Logical fallacy, much?

How can Ood Bnar's performance against Kun be comparable? It's fine to try to make a point but you're ignoring the evidence. They both acquitted themselves well considering they were both overpowered.

And looking at the specifics of their performances (especially Anakin's) they weren't shamed ala Null against Ulric, they actually held their own long enough that it wasn't embarrassing IMO.

Originally posted by Faunus
He jumped in and cut off his head; that was the duel.

Have you actually looked at the comic? Because such statements don't make it seem like you did.

Null had enough time to attack Ulic with the force, it wasn't like he was blind sided and attacked. He faces off with Ulic delivers a dark side attack which Ulic resists. He swings his lightsaber once at Ulic before getting his head chopped off. The fact that he couldn't even protect his neck after only one swing of his saber is testament to his deficiencies in the skill department.

Originally posted by Faunus
After the duel was over, Obi-Wan hanging on for dear life and Maul was laughing in his face. But yeah, fantastic argument.

Pointing out what I've already pointed out is redundant. Conveniently ignoring the gist of my point again.

...

Originally posted by Faunus
This is desperation, bias, or sheer stupidity; you can pick one.

I pick none. This is just overexxegeration.

Originally posted by Faunus
Dooku was the only living master of a form designed for lightsaber duels, had over twice Kenobi's level of experience, and was vastly more powerful. T

Again ignoring the gist of my statement. Obi Wan was at this point a master of soresu and did well defensively against Dooku. You will also notice that I acknowledged Dooku's superiority (even with my first statement on the matter when I made consideration to the fact that they fought him one-on-one).

Originally posted by Faunus
The one thing Dooku wouldn't have had on Kenobi would be physical strength. You really think an eighty year-old man is stronger than a thirty-five year-old? 🙄 🙄

Rolleyes at yourself. This is Star Wars, Dooku is not Christopher Lee in the mythos he's an exceptionally powerful force user who can use the force to augment his physical ability, you bet your bottom dollar he was stronger (as of AOTC maybe that changed). If you actually remembered the fight, you'd know Dooku defeated Obi Wan by overpowering him in the saber-lock.

Originally posted by Pyron_Knight

AOTC Anakin and Obi-Wan are not elite. Not even close.

Really? Because they couldn't beat Dooku in one-on-one fights?

Originally posted by Pyron_Knight

It's called Force power. Yoda does the same with Dooku and Sidious and no way the muppet is stronger than either of them physically.

I'm aware of that, it's still translates to greater physical strength in this context.

Really? Because they couldn't beat Dooku in one-on-one fights?

That and the fact they lack feats to support being "elite".

Again ignoring the gist of my statement. Obi Wan was at this point a master of soresu and did well defensively against Dooku. You will also notice that I acknowledged Dooku's superiority (even with my first statement on the matter when I made consideration to the fact that they fought him one-on-one).

Funny...since when did Obi-Wan use Soresu in AOTC?

Rolleyes at yourself. This is Star Wars, Dooku is not Christopher Lee in the mythos he's an exceptionally powerful force user who can use the force to augment his physical ability, you bet your bottom dollar he was stronger (as of AOTC maybe that changed). If you actually remembered the fight, you'd know Dooku defeated Obi Wan by overpowering him in the saber-lock.

After toying with him for a little while where Obi-Wan expresses exertion and effort while the Count is distinctly unphased and mocking him.
Dooku was vastly more skilled than Kenobi then as well as physically stronger.

Physically stronger? Only when relying on the Force in combat, which is what Dooku has to do. Otherwise, Kenobi would break his old ass in half without a second's hesitation.

Originally posted by Pyron_Knight
You mean the same Maul who lasted all of 16 seconds against a pissed-off Padawan before having his weapon broken and being put on his ass?

Impressive...most impressive.

Taking this particular feat out of context can be irksome; if it is your suggestion that Obi-Wan's momentary advantage over Darth Maul suggests either superiority or parity with the Sith Lord, you are most grievously mistaken. It's a well known fact that Force users who "give into their anger!" or more baser instincts will achieve a temporary boost of ability in combat. This is why Emperor Palpatine urged Luke Skywalker to summon his hatred in order to battle his father aboard the second Death Star, because the untrained Jedi was hardly a match for his more powerful and experienced father; this is why Palpatine urged Anakin Skywalker to do the exact same thing in his battle against Count Dooku, who emerged victorious despite the Sith Lord's greater experience and technique; this is why Maul himself, despite being wounded and greatly fatigued, would summon his aggression against Darth Sidious himself and attack in such a frenzy that the Dark Lord "barely" deflected the blows, in a time where Sidious's technique with a lightsaber would be at its pinnacle.

We know from various sources that Maul is a ridiculously skilled combatant with an enormous command of various martial arts, who has "pushed his physical and Force assisted abilities to the utmost", who was able to decimate the ranks of Black Sun, slay Anoon Bondara (a Jedi whose abilities were "second to none" in the Order), defeat Darsha Assant at a time where "no Jedi lived in the Force as deeply as [Darsha]", and nearly defeat the most powerful Sith Lord in history in close quarters combat. Not to mention that Maul's chosen form, Juyo, is only wielded by "high level masters of various forms" according to Fight Saber.

Kenobi doesn't look that strong physically, Dooku looks big though. I think he probably has more physical strength than Kenobi does even without the Force - Kenobi is probably more agile, though.

To back up Gideon's point Obiwan says the following in the jedi vs sith guide:

"When the last door lifted,I gave into my anger as I charged the dark warrior. I absolutely wanted to destroy him. He used my anger against me,actually fed off my fury,gaining strength as I exhausted my own. I lost my lightsaber and he had me."

And Obi-Wan had Maul too.
Except he conveniently decided to -flip- over Maul instead of striking the killing blow after simultaneously breaking Maul's weapon and putting him on his ass.
It was just major PIS he didn't kill Maul right there.

Originally posted by darthsith19
Kenobi doesn't look that strong physically, Dooku looks big though. I think he probably has more physical strength than Kenobi does even without the Force - Kenobi is probably more agile, though.

Darthsith, in all seriousness, this might be the dumbest thing you've ever said. It is patently ridiculous to assume that Count Dooku is stronger than Obi-Wan subtracting the Force from this equation. You're basing this off of what? Comparable size? Dooku "looks bigger" than Anakin as well, while muscular, Anakin certainly isn't ripped. I suppose he's weaker than the Count as well?

Originally posted by Pyron_Knight
And Obi-Wan had Maul too.
Except he [B]conveniently decided to -flip- over Maul instead of striking the killing blow after simultaneously breaking Maul's weapon and putting him on his ass.
It was just major PIS he didn't kill Maul right there.[/B]

As I've already pointed out, the mere suggestion that Obi-Wan was on par, equal, or greater than Maul is as baseless as it is stupid.

Darthsith, in all seriousness, this might be the dumbest thing you've ever said. It is patently ridiculous to assume that Count Dooku is stronger than Obi-Wan subtracting the Force from this equation. You're basing this off of what? Comparable size? Dooku "looks bigger" than Anakin as well, while muscular, Anakin certainly isn't ripped. I suppose he's weaker than the Count as well?

I will put my money on King Ommin and Warb Null.

Originally posted by darthsith19
Yes, I am basing it off the fact that Dooku looks bigger, because that's all we've got, what else is there that makes you believe that Kenobi is stronger without the Force? Because he is younger?

How about the fact that Count Dooku is an aristocrat who likely hasn't participated in physical combat in decades, whereas Obi-Wan is a highly trained combatant who held his own against Jango Fett.

And, Anakin does look as big as Dooku,

There is no substantial difference in mass and size between Anakin and Obi-Wan, Darthsith.

and being more ripped than somebody doesn't mean you're stronger than them, either.

Obviously not. But just because someone is bigger doesn't mean that they're stronger, either. Qui-Gon Jinn is bigger than Darth Maul. Are you going to tell me that Jinn is stronger? The fact that one [Dooku] is an eighty three year old man who -- according to the novelization -- can't compete with Anakin on a physical level even when drawing upon the Force seems to support the idea that he's not stronger with someone who does a reasonably skilled job of not getting plowed over by Anakin [Obi-Wan].

How about the fact that Count Dooku is an aristocrat who likely hasn't participated in physical combat in decades, whereas Obi-Wan is a highly trained combatant who held his own against Jango Fett.

There is no substantial difference in mass and size between Anakin and Obi-Wan, Darthsith.

Anakin looks considerably larger than Kenobi does, even though Kenobi is closer to the camera. If you really believe that you should watch ROTS again, Anakin looks considerably bigger than Kenobi does whenever they are standing together, on the Invisible Hand, when they are fighting, ect. Hayden also gained 25 lbs. for the role of Anakin in ROTS and was on a shitload of protein supplements, I read about it on the internet I can give you a link if you'd like. However, nowhere have I heard of McGregor gaining any muscle or mass to play Kenobi. Not to sound gay, but we see Anakin shirtless in ROTS and he's pretty strong looking, I see no reason to believe that Kenobi is that strong underneath his robes.

But just because someone is bigger doesn't mean that they're stronger, either. Qui-Gon Jinn is bigger than Darth Maul. Are you going to tell me that Jinn is stronger?

The fact that one [Dooku] is an eighty three year old man who -- according to the novelization -- can't compete with Anakin on a physical level even when drawing upon the Force seems to support the idea that he's not stronger with someone who does a reasonably skilled job of not getting plowed over by Anakin [Obi-Wan].

This is what Anakin looks like:

Now compare that to Obi-Wan:

Anakin is considerably stronger physically. I know for Ewan you might say that's just the actor of Obi-Wan and not what Obi-Wan really looks like but they have the same physically appearance, physically they are the same - if Ewan was a steroid freak at like 250 lbs. of solid muscle then Kenobi would be huge, and if Ewan was 120 and anorexix then Kenobi would be, too. The actor's physique reflects the characters physique. Hayden is 6'0 and 1/2 and weighs 185 lbs. Ewan is 5'10 and judging by that pic probably weighs about 150.

And in case you want it, here's the link talking about Hayden getting strong and gaining 25 lbs. for ROTS:

http://www.nuts4chic.com/nuts4chic%20uk_People-Hayden_Christensen-Its_all_been_such_a_surreal_experience.htm

They wanted me to bulk up for the part.
"I went from 160lbs to 185lbs but I was in the best shape of my life because I worked out with a trainer in Sydney and was on a strict diet, eating six meals a day and on every protein weight-gain supplement that man has created. I could eat anything because I was working out five or six hours a day.

Originally posted by Pyron_Knight
And Obi-Wan had Maul too.
Except he [b]conveniently decided to -flip- over Maul instead of striking the killing blow after simultaneously breaking Maul's weapon and putting him on his ass.
It was just major PIS he didn't kill Maul right there. [/B]

So one brief instant when Obiwan has the advantage makes him greater than Maul?

[QUOTE]

Originally posted by Elite Hunter
"When the last door lifted,I gave into my anger as I charged the dark warrior. I absolutely wanted to destroy him. He used my anger against me,actually fed off my fury,gaining strength as I exhausted my own. I lost my lightsaber and he had me."

As Obiwan's own words say Maul was gaining strength from Obiwan and highly doubt this had happened all once and that is why he was able to overcome Obiwan. It is much more logical to say that is was slowly happening in their duel so I seen no reason why Maul wouldn't have killed Obiwan if the duel was to take place on a different field of battle I would even say that without the hole there Obiwan would stand a heavy chance of losing because unlike when Maul was briefly knocked to the ground,Maul retained one side of his saber. But if you watch the duel you can clearly see Obiwan's lightsaber being lost in midair and not when he hit the ground and proceeds to fall into the hole.

This is the dumbest argument I have ever seen, and it isn't coming from SW_LeGenD or Nebaris or anyone else derided for their ability to debate. This is, quite frankly, as disappointing as it is stupid.

Originally posted by darthsith19
Simply because one is trained in unarmed, hand to hand combat, doesn't mean that they are strong physically. For example, Bruce Lee was way smaller than Arnold Schwarzenegger was but could likely have whooped Schwarzenegger's ass in a heartbeat. Point being just cause you're good at unarmed ckmbat doesn't mean you're strong.

Are you high? Darthsith, your argument was that Count Dooku is "stronger" than Obi-Wan, physically. Why are you citing this example? In terms of strength, Arnold would effortlessly rip Bruce Lee apart. The accolades that that man had won for his lifting strength are legion. While Bruce Lee would have likely kicked Arnold's ass, it was because he was faster, more agile, and trained in a discipline meant for combat.

Anakin looks considerably larger than Kenobi does, even though Kenobi is closer to the camera. If you really believe that you should watch ROTS again, Anakin looks considerably bigger than Kenobi does whenever they are standing together, on the Invisible Hand, when they are fighting, ect. Hayden also gained 25 lbs. for the role of Anakin in ROTS and was on a shitload of protein supplements, I read about it on the internet I can give you a link if you'd like. However, nowhere have I heard of McGregor gaining any muscle or mass to play Kenobi. Not to sound gay, but we see Anakin shirtless in ROTS and he's pretty strong looking, I see no reason to believe that Kenobi is that strong underneath his robes

This is retarded. Now you're comparing them to how they look underneath their robes? And you think Dooku is some mountain of muscle underneath that cape? This is beyond stupid, Darthsith.

No, simple because I've seen Maul in the Darth Maul comics without a shirt on and he was ripped, his body was like 100% muscle. However, Dooku is bigger than Kenobi and I haven't seen Kenobi do anything that makes him stronger than Dooku, who, might I remind you, kicked Anakin into a wall and held off Kenobj and Anakin at the same time in a saber lock, with one hand:

...Using the Force.

Jesus ****ing Christ, Darthsith. Yoda overpowered Sidious and Dooku in saber locks (the same Dooku whom you contend to be stronger than Obi-Wan). I guess he would just decimate anyone in an arm wrestling contest?

Yeah, we're done. I'm normally patient when it comes to arguments, but this is, no joke, the dumbest thing I've ever, ever read.

Originally posted by Gideon

Are you high? Darthsith, your argument was that Count Dooku is "stronger" than Obi-Wan, physically. Why are you citing this example? In terms of strength, Arnold would effortlessly rip Bruce Lee apart. The accolades that that man had won for his lifting strength are legion. While Bruce Lee would have likely kicked Arnold's ass, it was because he was faster, more agile, and trained in a discipline meant for combat.