Originally posted by whirlysplat
He didn't match it throughout the fight CC he got the shit knocked out of him as did the other avenger if it had not been for the Scarlet Witch he would have beaten them all.
I'm not talking about the result. I'm talking about the fight.
There are are a lot of differences between Nefaria and Superman, aren't there? 😖hifty:
<<After review, I have come to the conclusion that Thor does have super speed, though he isn't quite as fast as Superman is. However, Superman's speed advantage doesn't mean much. Thor has superior reflexes, and far superior fighting ability. Thor is easily as strong as Superman is, but he is slightly less durable. Thor could go hand to hand with Superman, and over come him. Mjolnir is one of the most powerful magical artifacts in Marvel. With it, Thor is able to fly faster than light, and create a storm large enough to cover the face of the Earth.
Superman may have been unscathed by magic from demons, etc., but divine magic has certainly taken it's toll on him. Thor is a God, and one of the most powerful magic wielders in Marvel.
Thor has greater reflexes, he is at least equal to Superman in strength, and possesses far superor fighting skills. Superman's only two advantages are moderately superior speed and durability, both of which can be remedied via Mjolnir. With Mjolnir, Thor is faster than Superman (in the air,) and can deflect any of Superman's attacks.
I don't see Thor losing this fight.>>
now that is a coherent and well stated point of view. i don't agree with it in its entirety, however, doesn't change the fact that it's a good argument. and i don't see thor losing all the match ups either . . .
just about half of them!
🙂
out of 10 cube, how many you gonna give supes?
Originally posted by leonidas
<<After review, I have come to the conclusion that Thor does have super speed, though he isn't quite as fast as Superman is. However, Superman's speed advantage doesn't mean much. Thor has superior reflexes, and far superior fighting ability. Thor is easily as strong as Superman is, but he is slightly less durable. Thor could go hand to hand with Superman, and over come him. Mjolnir is one of the most powerful magical artifacts in Marvel. With it, Thor is able to fly faster than light, and create a storm large enough to cover the face of the Earth.Superman may have been unscathed by magic from demons, etc., but divine magic has certainly taken it's toll on him. Thor is a God, and one of the most powerful magic wielders in Marvel.
Thor has greater reflexes, he is at least equal to Superman in strength, and possesses far superor fighting skills. Superman's only two advantages are moderately superior speed and durability, both of which can be remedied via Mjolnir. With Mjolnir, Thor is faster than Superman (in the air,) and can deflect any of Superman's attacks.
I don't see Thor losing this fight.>>
now that is a coherent and well stated point of view. i don't agree with it in its entirety, however, doesn't change the fact that it's a good argument. and i don't see thor losing all the match ups either . . .
just about half of them!
🙂
out of 10 cube, how many you gonna give supes?
I think you're underrating Thor's magic. Without magic, I'd say it's 50/50.
You guys have brought up some of Superman's fights against demons in which Superman has been knocked into orbit, or halfway across the world without serious injury, ignoring the fact that Thor is a God. I've seen what happens to Superman when confronted by divine magic. A Godblast that can drive away Galactus is going to put Superman down.
cube, you know better than that. but i DO agree thor wins - some of the time.
and here's a final (rather silly even my my own mind) argument ( but kg would love this one though! it's one of the things where it's all > signs!)
ahem. here goes:
superman>wonder woman>hercules>=thor
ergo, supes is obviously much stronger than thor! debate settled.
by the way, you basically said everything i said. i think supes has a slight strength and speed adv that thor could overcome with his experience and magic. i believe superman's iconic status (laugh if you want but it clearly counts if you read enough of his books) cancels the god status. i just don't think the magic would be as big an advantage as you think it would be. godblast would do a lot of damage, but supes can TAKE a lot of damage. in some fights it would be enough to weaken him to where thor can beat him down, in others, i think supes could either avoid it, or overcome it.
after all the arguing/debating, we really aren't THAT far apart on our views. unless you think thor wins 10/10 . . .
Flawed argument, leondias.
Wonder Woman > DC Hercules.
Thor lfted the midgard serpent in it's entirety. Superman has never lifted the weight of the earth. Your hierarchy is full of holes.
Superman has a slight speed advantage that can be overcome by Thor's godly reflexes and far superior fighting ability.
Superman's iconic status? That is the equivilant of saying, "Superman is more popular, so he wins." That's as biased as it gets. That kind of logic has no place on this forum.
We have very different opinions.
Do you honestly believe that Superman could withstand a Godblast that drove away Galactus?
<<Flawed argument, leondias.
Wonder Woman > DC Hercules.
Thor lfted the midgard serpent in it's entirety. Superman has never lifted the weight of the earth. Your hierarchy is full of holes.>>
er, that's why i said it was silly . . . a little levity in a debate that is simply spinning it's wheels. i'll assume you think he wins 10/10, so you're right, we are very different in our opinions.
<<Superman's iconic status? That is the equivilant of saying, "Superman is more popular, so he wins." That's as biased as it gets. That kind of logic has no place on this forum.>>
lol i think that was actually intended to be insulting. frankly, i probably like thor MORE than supes, and i would think you of all people would know i don't debate on bias, but rather on what i have seen and read in 25 years of collecting. i'd pick thor over anyone else in dc, but because i pick this one down the middle you cry fanboy. (shrugs) check posts if you feel the need regarding my impartiality (though i do like to play devil's advocate at times . . .) i could simply have said supes has proven time and time again to be clearly SUPERIOR to many 'gods' (darkseid, orion, the kryptonian goddess, to name just a couple) so your 'god' argument holds literally no water in this case, and that this superiority is based on his character as much as his 'powers'. but i was trying to avoid being argumentative because, as i said, this is just spining it's wheels and nothing i or anyone says will convince you. the obverse is true as well.
you're debating this like it's life and death or something. it's a comic and no 'REAL' proof exists either way, ('specially since, for some reason, this forum sees all x-overs as taboo or bad writing) just things we can infer from other things. accept some people will have different views, even if you feel them faulty.
as for me, i'm done with this thread. i've said all i can. if you find it wonting, to each his own.
Originally posted by leonidas
<<Flawed argument, leondias.
Wonder Woman > DC Hercules.
Thor lfted the midgard serpent in it's entirety. Superman has never lifted the weight of the earth. Your hierarchy is full of holes.>>er, that's why i said it was silly . . . a little levity in a debate that is simply spinning it's wheels. i'll assume you think he wins 10/10, so you're right, we are very different in our opinions.
<<Superman's iconic status? That is the equivilant of saying, "Superman is more popular, so he wins." That's as biased as it gets. That kind of logic has no place on this forum.>>
lol i think that was actually intended to be insulting. frankly, i probably like thor MORE than supes, and i would think you of all people would know i don't debate on bias, but rather on what i have seen and read in 25 years of collecting. i'd pick thor over anyone else in dc, but because i pick this one down the middle you cry fanboy. (shrugs) check posts if you feel the need regarding my impartiality (though i do like to play devil's advocate at times . . .) i could simply have said supes has proven time and time again to be clearly SUPERIOR to many 'gods' (darkseid, orion, the kryptonian goddess, to name just a couple) so your 'god' argument holds literally no water in this case, and that this superiority is based on his character as much as his 'powers'. but i was trying to avoid being argumentative because, as i said, this is just spining it's wheels and nothing i or anyone says will convince you. the obverse is true as well.
you're debating this like it's life and death or something. it's a comic and no 'REAL' proof exists either way, ('specially since, for some reason, this forum sees all x-overs as taboo or bad writing) just things we can infer from other things. accept some people will have different views, even if you feel them faulty.
as for me, i'm done with this thread. i've said all i can. if you find it wonting, to each his own.
I'm sorry. I thought you were making an argument. It appears that you are just voicing your opinion, and I'll respect that.
You assume correctly. Splitting it down the middle is being ignorant of Thor's obvious advantages. You imply that Superman wins 5/10 fights solely because of his moderatley superior speed, supposedly superior strength, and durability. That simply isn't enough. As I have proven, Thor is easily Superman's peer in the strength department, and he possesses greater reflexes and fighting ability. Without magic, the fight is 50/50.
I didn't call you a fanboy, but the truth is that Superman's iconic status has no place in this debate. It is not a part of his character, nor does it pertain to any of his abilities. If that were the case, he, Spiderman, and Wolverine should beat anyone, simply because of their iconic status. See how ridiculous that sounds?
Superman has proved himself superior to many "gods," none of which exercise magical abilities. Darkseid? Nope. Orion? Nope. Cythonna? If I recall correctly, he had to use a Kryptonite bomb to defeat her. My argument stands firm.
You didn't address my question about Superman's ability, or rather inability to withstand a Godly Essence Blast that forced Galactus to retreat. But, I suppose you aren't obligated to.
I have presented facts and a strong argument. If you choose not to acknowledge either, there isn't anything I can do to force you to do so, or to change your perspective.
However, judging the results of the poll, I think I'm reaching someone. To each his own.
do i think supes could survive a blast that drove off a very weak galactus? (i actually meant to relpy to that and forgot) the answer is yes. he's survived greater shots. darkseid's omega effect actually caused galactus to appear to be destroyed! but supes has weathered that. his resistance to magic is overblown as myself and many others have shown. you say 'divine' magic is 'better' than say, 'hell magic'. you just make too many suppositions. thor's godblast did absolutely nothing to juggernaut. is juggs now more impervious or invincible than galactus? is supes as durable as juggs? no, but he's closer to juggs than anyone else in marvel or dc is. (at least as far as main stream heroes go with the possible exceptio of ss) at least he is in my opinion.
i've outlined several times why i disagree with some of your 'proof'. and you're right, to each his own. i'm sure we'll go round and round agin on another topic, but this one is kind of old. time to find a new battle.
later
Originally posted by leonidas
do i think supes could survive a blast that drove off a very weak galactus? (i actually meant to relpy to that and forgot) the answer is yes. he's survived greater shots. darkseid's omega effect actually caused galactus to appear to be destroyed! but supes has weathered that. his resistance to magic is overblown as myself and many others have shown. you say 'divine' magic is 'better' than say, 'hell magic'. you just make too many suppositions. thor's godblast did absolutely nothing to juggernaut. is juggs now more impervious or invincible than galactus? is supes as durable as juggs? no, but he's closer to juggs than anyone else in marvel or dc is. (at least as far as main stream heroes go with the possible exceptio of ss) at least he is in my opinion.i've outlined several times why i disagree with some of your 'proof'. and you're right, to each his own. i'm sure we'll go round and round agin on another topic, but this one is kind of old. time to find a new battle.
later
Another 'argument' full of holes.
Crossovers... sigh... In "The hunger," Darkseid's Omega effect made a strange aura appear around Galactus. Galactus was totally unaffected. To say that the Omega Effect was more effective against Galactus than the Godblast was is simply wrong. It had no effect on him whatsoever, and he was not forced to retreat. Galactus was just as weak in the crossover as he was when Thor forced him to retreat. Let's compare the effects of the Omega Effect on Superman to the effects of the Godblast. Superman's bioaura protects him from the Omega Effect. It does not protect him from magical attacks. See the difference?
Superman is nowhere near as durable as Juggernaut is. Juggernaut doesn't get cut. Juggernaut doesn't bleed. Juggernaut doesn't get knocked unconscious. Juggernaut can't get killed. Juggernaut *resists magic*. Perhaps these facts will sway your opinion.
Superman's resistance to magic? I think you mean his weakness. No one's overblowing Superman's weakness. I'm gauging the severity if the weakness from what I've seen in his comics. Sure, Superman has taken punches from magical foes, and got knocked across the globe, but magical energy attacks are a whole 'nother beast. Captain Marvel's lightning had Superman bleeding from the eyes and nose. A Godly essence blast capable of driving off Galactus would kill Superman, without a doubt.
Your opinion keeps coming up in these "rebuttals" of yours, lacking supporting facts. You may disagree with my proof, but you haven't come forth with any evidence refuting it. You've merely stated your opinion, time and time again.
Originally posted by Cosmic Cube
If no one can come up with a decent argument as to why Superman would be able to survive a full powered Godblast, I guess this is settled.Thor wins. 💃
But faster than a speeding bullet (not FTL) might not be able to handle Thor reflex 🙂 (not sure about that)
If Leo thinks Thor can defeat Gladiator, why should Supes have any Chance?
Gladiator is faster, Stronger, and his weakness is not magic lol
Originally posted by kgkg
well the only way I see supes winning is by doing what Gladiator did , Go really fast knock his hammer.But faster than a speeding bullet (not FTL) might not be able to handle Thor reflex 🙂 (not sure about that)
If Leo thinks Thor can defeat Gladiator, why should Supes have any Chance?
Gladiator is faster, Stronger, and his weakness is not magic lol
Superman isn't capable of what Gladiator is. Gladiator moves at 100x the speed of light.
Superman moves at 2215 miles per hour. I think a psy-blast from Phoenix is a little faster.
But, Thor's magic wouldn't work. Superman's iconic status would protect him from a godblast.
😆
ok, honest to god last post on this thread:
one of your 'proofs' that thor has superspeed and reflexes is that he battles nefaria. it is YOUR OPINION that they were fighting at superspeed for some reason, and not just brawling. if that were the case, how could cap or some of the others even follow the battle or participate? how could cap hit him if he was moving so fast in the battle? does everyone have superspeed? what about the people watching on the streets? how were they following? in the hulk thread you say HE has superfast reflexes as well. it is your opinion that they have to have superspeed or they can't hit people like ss, etc . . . but hulk couldn't lay a finger on spidey when spidey got pissed. but hulk still pounds ss at times, and thor. isn't more likely the battle is fought at normal speeds most of the time? CN was fighting at thor's speed, rather than thor fighting at superspeed. instances where superspeed is exhibited is usually clearly discernible in art. when thor fought ss and warlock, he was 'moving like ligtning' it is your opinion warlock spoke literally. i think thath's ridiculous. why wouldn't he ALWAYS fight at that speed? to assume all these fights take place at superspeeds makes no sense in the bulk of situations. how could cap HIT CN as he did in their more recent confrontation?
it is your opinion the magic sword twilight weighs as much a star. it is your opinion divine magic is somehow greater than other magic. don't you get it? it is ALL opinion! for everything you've supposedly 'proven' has been refuted by me (and i've given lots of 'evidence' to support my reasons for disagreeing, as have others).
i could search through all my superman books and find more examples but it wouldn't change anything.
Originally posted by leonidas
ok, honest to god last post on this thread:one of your 'proofs' that thor has superspeed and reflexes is that he battles nefaria. it is YOUR OPINION that they were fighting at superspeed for some reason, and not just brawling. if that were the case, how could cap or some of the others even follow the battle or participate? how could cap hit him if he was moving so fast in the battle? does everyone have superspeed? what about the people watching on the streets? how were they following? in the hulk thread you say HE has superfast reflexes as well. it is your opinion that they have to have superspeed or they can't hit people like ss, etc . . . but hulk couldn't lay a finger on spidey when spidey got pissed. but hulk still pounds ss at times, and thor. isn't more likely the battle is fought at normal speeds most of the time? CN was fighting at thor's speed, rather than thor fighting at superspeed. instances where superspeed is exhibited is usually clearly discernible in art. when thor fought ss and warlock, he was 'moving like ligtning' it is your opinion warlock spoke literally. i think thath's ridiculous. why wouldn't he ALWAYS fight at that speed? to assume all these fights take place at superspeeds makes no sense in the bulk of situations. how could cap HIT CN as he did in their more recent confrontation?
it is your opinion the magic sword twilight weighs as much a star. it is your opinion divine magic is somehow greater than other magic. don't you get it? it is ALL opinion! for everything you've supposedly 'proven' has been refuted by me (and i've given lots of 'evidence' to support my reasons for disagreeing, as have others).
i could search through all my superman books and find more examples but it wouldn't change anything.
Opinions are all you have.
I have stated facts.
Don't bring up other threads.
Why doesn't Superman ALWAYS fight at super speeds? The fact that he doesn't use a power doesn't mean he doesn't possess it. You disappoint me.
Look at the art in Blood and Thunder. Thor's movements are a blur. Thor's Marvel Profile says that he has God-like speed. What more proof do you need? It is a fact that Twilight was formed from a white dwarf star. It is a fact that divine magic has proven more effective against Superman.
Nothing I have said has been opinion. Everything you have said has.