Most Influential Characters

Originally posted by Lt. Valerian
I haven't finished reading RoT so I didn't read Nebaris' argument. Is it good?

No, it isn't. Palpatine was responsible for the revenge of the Sith (Revenge of the Sith, the Complete Visual Dictionary, the Ultimate Visual Guide), Palpatine was the imbalance in the Force (Revenge of the Sith, Labyrinth of Evil, and Return of the Jedi), Palpatine was responsible for the creation of the most powerful tyrannical regime in galactic history. Nebaris's assertions to the contrary are baseless and ridiculous.

Edit: Remember, Bane's actions were indirect at best. It was not his plan to infiltrate the Galactic Republic. He didn't author a set of blueprints that Palpatine merely implemented. The Sith waited for a millenium for the birth of one powerful enough to return them from hiding -- "Sidious was that one" (CVD). If Bane could've, he would've. But he didn't.

Originally posted by Gideon
No, it isn't. Palpatine was responsible for the revenge of the Sith (Revenge of the Sith, the Complete Visual Dictionary, the Ultimate Visual Guide), Palpatine was the imbalance in the Force (Revenge of the Sith, Labyrinth of Evil, and Return of the Jedi), Palpatine was responsible for the creation of the most powerful tyrannical regime in galactic history. Nebaris's assertions to the contrary are baseless and ridiculous.

Edit: Remember, Bane's actions were indirect at best. It was not his plan to infiltrate the Galactic Republic. He didn't author a set of blueprints that Palpatine merely implemented. The Sith waited for a millenium for the birth of one powerful enough to return them from hiding -- "Sidious was that one" (CVD). If Bane could've, he would've. But he didn't.

If we are to credit Bane for his "indirect" actions, then we should do the same with Revan, if not put him on a higher pedestal than Bane, seeing as how Bane was lost until he got a hold of Revan's holocron. So sorry Noobaris.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
If we are to credit Bane for his "indirect" actions, then we should do the same with Revan, if not put him on a higher pedestal than Bane, seeing as how Bane was lost until he got a hold of Revan's holocron. So sorry Noobaris.

Another point. Whilst I appreciate the lengths that Nebaris goes to in order to fellate his preferred character, I find no humor in it. The fact remains that he is dead wrong and if one uses his logic, Darth Revan reigns supreme over all others, as all Bane did was implement Revan's "blueprints".

Originally posted by Gideon
Another point. Whilst I appreciate the lengths that Nebaris goes to in order to fellate his preferred character, I find no humor in it. The fact remains that he is dead wrong and if one uses his logic, Darth Revan reigns supreme over all others, as all Bane did was implement Revan's "blueprints".

Agreed oh wise one.

Originally posted by Gideon
No, it isn't. Palpatine was responsible for the revenge of the Sith (Revenge of the Sith, the Complete Visual Dictionary, the Ultimate Visual Guide), Palpatine was the imbalance in the Force (Revenge of the Sith, Labyrinth of Evil, and Return of the Jedi), Palpatine was responsible for the creation of the most powerful tyrannical regime in galactic history. Nebaris's assertions to the contrary are baseless and ridiculous.

Gideon, you're being purposefully dense. Sure, Palpatine was the one to trigger "the revenge of the Sith," I would never deny that, however, as has been established by Rule of Two, Bane alone "had begun to assemble the pieces that would one day allow the Sith to rise up and rule the galaxy," which came in the form of literally a hundred long-term plans (which would be in full effect decades later in some case) in his relatively short ten year career as Dark Lord of the Sith. His network of spies and informants was in fact so vast that it extended to some of the most powerful organisations of the day, and even as far as the Republic and Jedi Order itself (to the point where he was able to gain access to detailed profiles of every single Jedi there was in the Galaxy at the time). It can be logically assumed that Bane not only continued this following the events of Rule of Two, but also that this practise continued, from Master to Apprentice for each and every Sith Lord in the Order.

At the end of the day, Bane was the one who toppled the then current Sith Order, Bane was the one who created the Order of Sith Lords that ensured the survival of the Sith for over a millenia, and Bane was the one who established the network of spies and informants that would eventually result in the eradication of the Jedi Order and return of the Sith.

In terms of who was more influential, Bane's influence, in the form of his teachings and creation, extended over a thousand years. Palpatine simply acted upon what Bane put into place.

Edit: Remember, Bane's actions were indirect at best.

Irrelevant misdirection.

The indirect nature of some of his actions in no way takes away how influential his eventual achievement made him. The fact that his teachings and creation lasted for over a thousand years, as I said, would indicate that the scale of his influence was greater than that of Palpatine.

It was not his plan to infiltrate the Galactic Republic. He didn't author a set of blueprints that Palpatine merely implemented.

He did, as I said, however, establish what is directly stated to have eventually resulted in the Sith's return to power. Palpatine was simply working off of Bane's teachings, and using what Bane created to trigger his rise to power.

The Sith waited for a millenium for the birth of one powerful enough to return them from hiding -- "Sidious was that one" (CVD).

Which alone doesn't conclusively prove that Palpatine possessed a quality that Bane didn't, as the statement doesn't deny the circumstances surrounding the time period as a factor.

If Bane could've, he would've. But he didn't.

Sure, in part because of the fact that the circumstances surrounding the time period weren't quite to his advantage like they were with Sidious, which is a factor that you're ignoring. The fact that Bane was essentially the one who made the circumstances what they were pretty much makes your argument void.

Bane was the more influential Sith, botom line, and to anyone with an ounce of sense, this should be enough:

At the end of the day, Bane was the one who toppled the then current Sith Order, Bane was the one who created the Order of Sith Lords that ensured the survival of the Sith for over a millenia, and Bane was the one who established the network of spies and informants that would eventually result in the eradication of the Jedi Order and return of the Sith.

In terms of who was more influential, Bane's influence, in the form of his teachings and creation, extended over a thousand years. Palpatine simply acted upon what Bane put into place.

It's conclusive.

Originally posted by Nebaris

Gideon, you're being purposefully dense. Sure, Palpatine was the one to trigger "the revenge of the Sith," I would never deny that, however, as has been established by Rule of Two, Bane alone "had begun to assemble the pieces that would one day allow the Sith to rise up and rule the galaxy," which came in the form of literally a hundred long-term plans (which would be in full effect decades later in some case) in his relatively short ten year career as Dark Lord of the Sith. His network of spies and informants was in fact so vast that it extended to some of the most powerful organisations of the day, and even as far as the Republic and Jedi Order itself (to the point where he was able to gain access to detailed profiles of every single Jedi there was in the Galaxy at the time). It can be logically assumed that Bane not only continued this following the events of Rule of Two, but also that this practise continued, from Master to Apprentice for each and every Sith Lord in the Order.

At the end of the day, Bane was the one who toppled the then current Sith Order, Bane was the one who created the Order of Sith Lords that ensured the survival of the Sith for over a millenia, and Bane was the one who established the network of spies and informants that would eventually result in the eradication of the Jedi Order and return of the Sith.

In terms of who was more influential, Bane's influence, in the form of his teachings and creation, extended over a thousand years. Palpatine simply acted upon what Bane put into place.

Irrelevant misdirection.

The indirect nature of some of his actions in no way takes away how influential his eventual achievement made him. The fact that his teachings and creation lasted for over a thousand years, as I said, would indicate that the scale of his influence was greater than that of Palpatine.

He did, as I said, however, establish what is directly stated to have eventually resulted in the Sith's return to power. Palpatine was simply working off of Bane's teachings, and using what Bane created to trigger his rise to power.

Which alone doesn't conclusively prove that Palpatine possessed a quality that Bane didn't, as the statement doesn't deny the circumstances surrounding the time period as a factor.

Sure, in part because of the fact that the circumstances surrounding the time period weren't quite to his advantage like they were with Sidious, which is a factor that you're ignoring. The fact that Bane was essentially the one who made the circumstances what they were pretty much makes your argument void.

Bane was the more influential Sith, botom line, and to anyone with an ounce of sense, this should be enough:

At the end of the day, Bane was the one who toppled the then current Sith Order, Bane was the one who created the Order of Sith Lords that ensured the survival of the Sith for over a millenia, and Bane was the one who established the network of spies and informants that would eventually result in the eradication of the Jedi Order and return of the Sith.

In terms of who was more influential, Bane's influence, in the form of his teachings and creation, extended over a thousand years. Palpatine simply acted upon what Bane put into place.

It's conclusive. [/B]

It's not fair or proper to label "those who came first" as the most influential. Bane created the RoT which spawned Palpatine; Revan instructed Bane on the RoT; the Rakata let Revan do what he did; the Big Bang created the Universe and everything which followed owes its significance to it.

The point is to look at the individual's accomplishments and impacts. History focuses on Napoleon's deeds, not Robespierre's reign of terror which laid out the path for him.

Palpatine IS #1: Destroyed the 25 000 year old Republic and the Jedi Order, created the biggest military build-up in galactic history (which deterred even the Yuuzhan Vong) and left his mark which is seen in every single piece of post-ROTS material.

Exactly. That is why Palpatine is above everyone else.

If we use that idiotic logic, then the first Sith ever >>> everyone else, which is completely erroneous.

Originally posted by Nebaris
Gideon, you're being purposefully dense.

Statements such as this are a total waste of time, effort, and posting space. I find the suggestion that "Bane is far more influential" than the Sith Lord who was the revenge of the Sith -- not the one who triggered it, but the actual embodiment of the idea itself -- to be absolutely baseless and ridiculous. What's more, Nebaris, it would seem that you're the underdog in this argument and the only one arguing in favor for it, going so far as to cite only a single source that does not conclude that Bane's influence exceeds Palpatine's own machinations.

Sure, Palpatine was the one to trigger "the revenge of the Sith," I would never deny that, however, as has been established by Rule of Two, Bane alone "had begun to assemble the pieces that would one day allow the Sith to rise up and rule the galaxy," which came in the form of literally a hundred long-term plans (which would be in full effect decades later in some case) in his relatively short ten year career as Dark Lord of the Sith. His network of spies and informants was in fact so vast that it extended to some of the most powerful organisations of the day, and even as far as the Republic and Jedi Order itself (to the point where he was able to gain access to detailed profiles of every single Jedi there was in the Galaxy at the time). It can be logically assumed that Bane not only continued this following the events of Rule of Two, but also that this practise continued, from Master to Apprentice for each and every Sith Lord in the Order.

No one denies Bane's machinations were of immense importance. But none of what you have posted or mentioned is conclusive; essentially, you've proven that the Sith Lord had an immense and vast network of spies and informants. So what? Has the entire Expanded Universe regarding the prequel trilogy and even subsequent material eluded you entirely? I rather doubt it. Bane wasn't the only one with a galaxy spanning network of minions, spies, and informants: Palpatine himself demonstrated a vast (perhaps even more vast) network himself (see my following post).

In terms of who was more influential, Bane's influence, in the form of his teachings and creation, extended over a thousand years. Palpatine simply acted upon what Bane put into place.

Ridiculous, Nebaris. Take every single sourcebook, chronology, or other time-line related material published by LFL, and compare how many times Bane is featured to the amount of times that Sidious is. It's the consensus that the scope of Palpatine's influence is vastly superior to Bane's own. That you cite time is also preposterous, as we are not privy to any material expanding a thousand years after Palpatine's lifetime, so we can't say for sure. That you claim Palpatine simply acted upon what Bane put into place is ridiculous. Bane didn't leave the Sith Lord blueprints or a step-by-step plan. Sidious's machinations were the result of his own brilliant mind, not Bane. Bane merely provided the goal.

Irrelevant misdirection.

The indirect nature of some of his actions in no way takes away how influential his eventual achievement made him. The fact that his teachings and creation lasted for over a thousand years, as I said, would indicate that the scale of his influence was greater than that of Palpatine.

I can turn around and slam you with the same logic that would place Revan on a pedastal vastly superior to Bane's own. Either way you slice it, Bane's not number one.

He did, as I said, however, establish what is directly stated to have eventually resulted in the Sith's return to power. Palpatine was simply working off of Bane's teachings, and using what Bane created to trigger his rise to power.

Jesus Christ, Nebaris, that's like saying if I pour 1300 square feet of concrete, let it dry, and then someone else comes along and builds the whole damn house on their own, I can somehow claim to have built the house itself. Bane poured the concrete. Palpatine added the walls, floors, ceilings, duct work, insulation, bought the furniture, moved it in, lit the fire, and sat his ass down in the armchair in the living room.

Which alone doesn't conclusively prove that Palpatine possessed a quality that Bane didn't, as the statement doesn't deny the circumstances surrounding the time period as a factor.

I'm afraid not. The statement was that Darth Sidious was the one born with the power to return the Sith from hiding, he was their revenge. That's a tantamount declaration that Bane lacked the ability to do so.

It's conclusive.

It's not. I've cited a greater variety of sources, all of which nail the coffin shut on the idea that Bane was more influential than Sidious. We won't discuss this again.

From Domus Publica:

The history of the Galactic Emperor – who “judged the universe on his own terms, with a clear sense of right and wrong” and
“looked to no other guide than himself,” according to Cloak of Deception – reveals him to be a consummate manipulator of others,
who uses their own intentions and actions to further his goals, often without their realization of the fact. Indeed, his schemes were
often already faits accomplis by the time others are even dimly aware of their existence; e.g., the Han Solo and the Corporate
Sector Sourcebook states that “upon his election as President of the Republic, he already had wealth and connections enough to
guarantee himself unlimited power,” indicating that his corporate, political, and social connections under the dual guises of
Palpatine of Naboo and Darth Sidious had already given him the ability to dominate the galactic government before he even claimed
its leadership. In essence, the time between The Phantom Menace and Revenge of the Sith was not to accumulate power for himself,
but rather to acclimate the galaxy to his exercise of it.

Friends and Allies
Palpatine had an extraordinary network of friends, acquaintances, and allies. The Core Rulebook mentions that he surprised many of his Senatorial colleagues by "cultivating friendships with respected public figures – including military commanders and even a Jedi Master" and developed "a coterie of admirers and supporters"; Admiral Mordon says in The Stele Chronicles that he made "allies of many key members of the senate, the Republican Guard, and even those Jedi Knights who remained uncorrupted." Even early in his career, the Revised Core Rulebook says, "he was scheming, forging alliances with influential figures in the Senate and the great learning centers," to the point that "his circle of supporters and confidants seemed at times to dwarf the power of the Galactic Senate itself." The scribe mentions in The New Essential Guide to Characters a cordial relationship with Commander Terrinald Screed, a "key personality" in the Judicial Department," and "friendships with the leaders of the Caamasi delegation" (which "enhanced the public perception of his moral authority"😉. He was acquainted with Wilhuff Tarkin, a member of the wealthy and distinguished Tarkins of Eriadu and had managed to secure for himself the office of Lieutenant Governor of Seswenna Sector, according to Cloak of Deception. He had a longstanding friendship with Master Jedi Ronhar Kim dating from his election to the office of Galactic Senator in "Bloodlines," as well as having met and befriended Master Jedi
Jorus C'baoth during service on the Ando Demilitarization Observation Group, according to the Revised Core Rulebook. Palpatine was also friends with Senator Finis Valorum (Spira) – although Coruscanti by birth, he represented the Lytton Sector in the Core Worlds – a member of the powerful and long-lived Valorum dynasty, and their relationship became especially close in 1 rS, at the start of Valorum's second term as Supreme Chancellor of the Galactic Republic, according to Cloak of Deception. The same source mentions that Palpatine's privacy and habitual tight-lipped manner drew other Senators to him, as they felt free about themselves to him as "a kind of confessor, willing to hear the most banal confessions or basest of misdeeds without passing judgment," trusting him to "guard the secrets of their lives as closely as he guarded his own." The dark side adepts Nefta and Sa-Di are called "two of the Emperor's closest friends" in Dark Empire II, and the New Republic Historical Council notes in The Essential Chronology that he had "an amicable relationship" with Rokur Gepta, the Sorcerer of Tund.

Not all of Palpatine's social connections were legitimate – or even legal. The Power of the Jedi Sourcebook mentions that Palpatine secretly backed a well-armed pirate band, and used it to destroy the Jedi Order's Oracle at Pelgrin, which had been used for nearly 3,000 years to predict (and thereby prevent or mitigate) galactic disasters. In The New Essential Guide to Characters, the scribe mentions his "under-the-table allies in every organization from the Techno Union to Freedom's Sons," and Cloak of Deception mentions that his friendship with a group of Bith delegates led to contacts within the terrorist group called the Nebula Front, active primarily along the Rimma Trade Route and well known for its hostility to the Trade Federation (TradeFed) and to the Republican Government. The Han Solo and the Corporate Sector Sourcebook adds that even as early as his term as Senator for Naboo, he had begun to design his New Order, a massive socio-economic reform program (to put it mildly), and had solicited contacts with "amoral factions in the Transport and Power ministries," in addition to a secret alliance with the Galactic Corporate Policy League, a little known policy consortium whose members were some of the largest and most influential multistellar corporations in the galaxy (the Tagge Company, Merr-Sonn Mil/Sci, Ayelixe/Krongbing Textiles, Millennium Entertainments, Bank of the Core, Chiewab Amalgamated Pharmaceuticals Company, Kuat Drive Yards, Rendili StarDrive, Cybot Galactica, and the Karflo Corporation). To Palpatine's contacts must be added those acquired under the guise of Darth Sidious, which the Revised Core Rulebook says to have numbered in the "hundreds of pawns, both willing and unwitting." Sidious made at least one contract with Raith Sienar's Sienar Advanced Projects Laboratory, according to Rogue Planet and the Episode I Incredible Cross-Sections, for Darth Maul's Sith Infiltrator Scimitar. Possibly the most important of these confederates are the three Neimoidian officials in the TradeFed's upper management, Viceroy Nute Gunray, Deputy Viceroy Hoth Monchar, and legal counsel Rune Haako, from Cloak of Deception; these three – minus Monchar after his murder in Darth Maul: Shadow Hunter – were part of the plot that brought Palpatine into office as Supreme Chancellor in The Phantom Menace, and leading figures of the corporate backing for the Count of Serenno's Separatist movement in Attack of the Clones and Revenge of the Sith. Ultimately Sidious came to control the Separatist Council – leaders of Serenno's Confederacy of Independent Systems – directly, and without the intermediation of Serenno, according to Labyrinth of Evil and Revenge of the Sith. It is especially noteworthy that Sidious commanded the services of Kinman Doriana, one of Palpatine's most privy and trusted aides, and that Doriana actively worked against what he thought to be Palpatine's interests in "Hero of Cartao" (which is fascinating in that it indicates that Doriana was ignorant of the fact that Sidious and Palpatine were in fact the same person).

As the reigning Dark Lord of the Sith, Sidious controlled the secret world of Thule (Thurra I), which Geonosis and the Outer Rim Worlds calls "a
sleeping Sith asset in the vast space of the Outer Rim"; there, the population of 790 millions is ruled by a clerical-military junta from the capital city of Hurom, and the planet has a Sith Temple and a Sith Arts Academy. This world functioned as a breeding/training ground for armies of Sith loyalists, and is dominated by priests and prophets of the religion and traditions of the vanished Sith Empire, although they did swear allegiance to Darth Bane's Sith Order and probably also to its predecessors, Exar Kun's Sith Brotherhood and Lord Kaan's Brotherhood of Darkness. Sidious retained Thule for his own purposes, and deliberately erased all information about it from "histories and the few sources that documented its existence," determined that it would "continue as a resource for the Sith, not the Empire." Given its remote location in the Outer Rim, its ruling Sithian theocracy, its pervasive atmosphere of the dark side of the Force, and the devotion of its entire population to the schemes of the Sith cultists in power, it is possible that Thule served as the inspiration for Palpatine's dark side utopia on Byss, hidden within the Deep Galactic Core.

(con't)

...The Dark Side Sourcebook notes that even before the execution of Order 66 and Palpatine's acclamation as Galactic Emperor, he had come into contact with the Prophets of the Dark Side, a schismatic Sith cult said by "The Dark Forces Saga, Part 3: Two Peas in a Pod" to have been founded long before by Darth Millenial, an apostate Apprentice from the Sith Order who rejected Darth Bane's Rule of Two in favor of Lord Kaan's Rule by the Strong. Sidious may have been intrigued by the Prophetic theology of the Force, which they called the Dark Force; The Dark Side Sourcebook says that Master Jedi Kadann believed that the prophesied "balance of the Force" required an equilibrium of the light side and the dark side, and this probably reflects the Dark Force theology, as Kadann became the Supreme Prophet of the Dark Side after leaving the Jedi Order. Just as there were two major theological schools of thought among the Jedi Knights – viz., Qui-Gonn Jinn's Living Force and Yoda's Unifying Force – , there were at least three theological schools among the Sith Lords – viz., Sidious's Universal Force, Maul's Living Force, and Tyranus's Balanced Force; although Kadann's Dark Force is subtly different from Sidious's Universal Force, it bears a striking resemblance to Tyranus's school of thought, which the Revised Core Rulebook explains as having held that "one can draw from both sides of the Force equally – light and dark – to achieve perfect balance." Thus, the Prophets of the Dark Side adhere to an interpretation of the Force that is generally compatible with that of the Sith Order, and Sidious was apparently fascinated enough that he went through the effort of convincing the Prophets to serve him. This "small group of dark side devotees" was highly secretive, and only "the Emperor's most trusted advisers" knew of their existence, although they continued to serve him throughout his reign as Galactic Emperor, consulting with him regularly so as to augment his own clairvoyance and prescience with their prophetic "predictions on the outcome of plans, strategies, and upcoming events," acquired by "employing meditative techniques and judicious use of the Farseeing technique." The Rebellion Era Sourcebook mentions that the Prophets maintained a sanctuary within the Imperial Palace, near the Galactic Emperor's throne room, where they "constantly [keep] the oracles and seers tuned to the ebb and flow of the Force," "reach out for signs and portents concerning topics specifically requested by the Emperor," and "troll the dark side for warning signs that might threaten the Empire or opportunities to increase the Emperor's power or the influence of the dark side." The Prophets also used an ancient Sith temple on the uncharted planet Bosthirda (the Prophets actually concealed this temple's existence from Palpatine), and "The Dark Forces Saga, Part 3: Two Peas in a Pod" establishes that the Prophets' main headquarters is located on the hidden world of Dromund Kaas, where they frequently undertook "the early training of [Palpatine's] darksiders," including dark side adept Grand Admiral Nial Declann, according to "The Emperor's Pawns." Ultimately, The Dark Side Sourcebook explains that the close relationship between Palpatine and Kadann fell apart when the Prophets warned of impending disaster at the Sanctuary Moon of Endor; Palpatine foresaw nothing of the kind and the two sects angrily dissolved their decades-long partnership, the Prophets fleeing to Kadann's stronghold on Bosthirda, abandoning Dromund Kaas and hiding from the resurrected Palpatine when he reincarnated on Byss .

Wow... absolute ownage.

Originally posted by Lt. Valerian
Wow... absolute ownage.

And, while I'm clearly brilliant, I can only take credit for the first of the three posts. The second and third are quoted essays (rather, they're parts of essays) written by Publius and can be found on his website called the Domus Publica. Impossibly thorough, he's greater than most professional authors and as a debater, is more decisive and respected than anyone I've ever encountered as far as Star Wars is concerned.

Yes, I know they're not yours. But as you said, you're still brilliant. And that's not the only ownage I've seen coming from you, so I have other ones to 'wow' at. ✅

Originally posted by Lt. Valerian
Yes, I know they're not yours. But as you said, you're still brilliant. And that's not the only ownage I've seen coming from you, so I have other ones to 'wow' at. ✅

Excuse my characteristic narcissism. I've been trying to deal with it for years but recently came to the old fashioned, two world conclusion: "screw it".

Yeah, don't worry about it. 😂 It's you who we are talking about, so, no matter.

Originally posted by Gideon
Statements such as this are a total waste of time, effort, and posting space.

As is replying to said statement with an entire paragraph, and as mentioned, it was a single sentence, hardly took a lot of time, effort or posting space, and I was simply speaking the truth.

I find the suggestion that "Bane is far more influential" than the Sith Lord who was the revenge of the Sith -- not the one who triggered it, but the actual embodiment of the idea itself -- to be absolutely baseless and ridiculous.

Oh, he was the actual embodiment of the idea now, was he? Could I ask for a canon statement that hasn't been taken out of context that states as much?

Either way, given that who you describe as the "embodiment of the idea itself" not only relied on the teachings of Bane and the entire BoD to become what he was, but directly utilised what Bane had alone established and single-handedly made vast (and what had been building in strength for over a millenium) for his rise to power, I really don't see how your argument has a leg to stand on.

What's more, Nebaris, it would seem that you're the underdog in this argument and the only one arguing in favor for it,

Your point? Not many have even read Ro2, and far less would probably have even picked up on the passage which largely supports my argument. Then there's of course the fact that few actually like to argue against the popular concensus, and that even then, not many even care about arguing for Bane. So yeah, what point are you trying to make? Please tell me you’re not about to start appealing to majority.

going so far as to cite only a single source that does not conclude that Bane's influence exceeds Palpatine's own machinations.

Firstly, it's not like Bane's appeared in an abundance of sources like Palpatine has, but the fact that the "single source" alone establishes that not only did Bane create what Palpatine would later directly use to exact his revenge on the Jedi, but also that individually, the scope of his own machinations were pretty immense, to the point where his reach extended into the Republic and Jedi Order itself, the "single source," in this case, is adequate in making a case for Bane.

Secondly, it's not like that's the only component of my argument. As I said, he ensured the survival of the Sith for over a millenium through his own actions, by destroying the BoD and creating the Ro2, and his influence spread over a thousand years, which is more than we can say for Palpatine.

No one denies Bane's machinations were of immense importance. But none of what you have posted or mentioned is conclusive;

Based on what we know, it is pretty conclusive. I mean, can you even substantiate anything that Palpatine achieved on his own merits? I won't claim to know all there is to know about Palpatine and his individual achievements, so if you make a valid case for him, I'd only be too happy to concede the argument, but as it stands, there's nothing that points to him being more influential than Bane.

essentially, you've proven that the Sith Lord had an immense and vast network of spies and informants.

No, I've proven that he created the network of spies and informants, that he single-handedly made it what it was, and that he had already been putting into place a hundred long-term plans to build its strength (as well as weaken the Republic from within), and that this practise logically would have continued from Master to Apprentice for a thousand years.

So what?

"So what?" It means that the best of what Palpatine achieved was entirely dependant on what Bane had single-handedly established, and what he and the Ro2 Sith Lords that followed had been building in strength.

As I said, what did Palpatine truly achieve through his own merits, and how does it compare to the vast number of achievements that Bane possessed?

Has the entire Expanded Universe regarding the prequel trilogy and even subsequent material eluded you entirely? I rather doubt it. Bane wasn't the only one with a galaxy spanning network of minions, spies, and informants: Palpatine himself demonstrated a vast (perhaps even more vast) network himself (see my following post).

I can only assume that you haven't been reading my posts properly, as my exact reasoning points to that exact conclusion. As I said, Bane's network of spies would have logically been building in strength all the way up until Palpatine's rise to power, so of course Palpatine's would have been greater in scale, but the point is, Bane was the one who created it from scratch, and Bane individually made it stronger than can be argued for anyone else, including Palaptine, based on existing evidence.

Ridiculous, Nebaris. Take every single sourcebook, chronology, or other time-line related material published by LFL, and compare how many times Bane is featured to the amount of times that Sidious is. It's the consensus that the scope of Palpatine's influence is vastly superior to Bane's own.

More appearences in the Expanded Universe does not make him the more influential Sith. This line of thought is exactly what's "ridiculous"; the fact that Bane doesn't appear as often as Palaptine does in the countless reference material and novels that make up the EU does not take away from the scope of his individual achievements, and it doesn't change the fact that what Palpatine achieved was largely through Bane's own actions rather than his own merits.

That you cite time is also preposterous, as we are not privy to any material expanding a thousand years after Palpatine's lifetime, so we can't say for sure.

We argue based on what we know, Gideon; Bane's influence extended over a thousand years, and it's more than what we can say for Palpatine.

What you’re saying would be tantamount to me saying that you can’t say that Palpatine was more influential than random Jedi Knight #251 from the year 16,258 BBY, simply because we don’t know enough about his/her exploits. It’s quite simply stupid.

That you claim Palpatine simply acted upon what Bane put into place is ridiculous. Bane didn't leave the Sith Lord blueprints or a step-by-step plan. Sidious's machinations were the result of his own brilliant mind, not Bane. Bane merely provided the goal.

"Darth Sidious proved to be the grim culmination of a thousand years of Sith philosophy and teachings." -- The Essential Guide to the Force.

”Over that same time, her Master had begun to assemble the pieces that would one day allow the Sith to rise up and rule the galaxy.

He'd created a vast network of spies and informants, but Zannah had no idea as to its true extent, or even how to contact them. He had put into motion a hundred long-range plans to slowly build their strength while weakening the Republic." - Rule of Two.

You have it right there; Palpatine not only relied on the network of spies that Bane had created, single-handedly made strong, and that had been building in strength for over a thousand years, but he's described as being the embodiment of the BoD's teachings and philosphy, indicating that the BoD's teachings in the art of manipulation and such was a huge part of what made Palaptine what he was.

So as we have it, not only are Bane's individual achievements greater than Palpatine's own, not only does his influence spread over a larger time period, but all that Palpatine achieved was largely through Bane and the BoD's actions and teachings rather than through his own merits. As I said, it's conclusive.

I can turn around and slam you with the same logic that would place Revan on a pedastal vastly superior to Bane's own. Either way you slice it, Bane's not number one.

Are Strawmans in this Season or something, as they're being continuously used in this thread.

All that Revan did was confirm ideas that were already coming to Bane; Bane was already coming to the conclusion that the darkside was spread too thin, and hearing that from someone who he considered a great and powerful Sith Lord of the past agree with him basically confirmed his ideas. In short, he provided Bane with inspiration.

The fact remains that Bane still had to put the Ro2 into place, and the fact remains that he was the one who made it strong, and as I’ve mentioned, Palpatine’s atrributes were not only largely in part due to Bane and the BoD’s teachings (which are described as being pretty extreme, and far beyond the minimal inspiration Revan provided Bane with), but he also directly used something that Bane had created to achieve his goals. In short, he pretty much owes everything to Bane, and his achievements are Bane’s by default.

Jesus Christ, Nebaris, that's like saying if I pour 1300 square feet of concrete, let it dry, and then someone else comes along and builds the whole damn house on their own, I can somehow claim to have built the house itself. Bane poured the concrete. Palpatine added the walls, floors, ceilings, duct work, insulation, bought the furniture, moved it in, lit the fire, and sat his ass down in the armchair in the living room.

Not at all, because not only have you failed to substantiate anything that Palpatine single-handedly achieved through his own merits, you’re also giving Bane nowhere near the credit he deserves. Based on what we know, his individual machinations > Palpatine’s, and this without the help that Palpatine was receiving.

I'm afraid not. The statement was that Darth Sidious was the one born with the power to return the Sith from hiding, he was their revenge. That's a tantamount declaration that Bane lacked the ability to do so.

No it’s not, because if you want to technically analyse the statement, it simply means that Sidious was the one born with the power to return the Sith from hiding in respect to the circumstances surrounding the time.

Bane lacked the “power” to do the same, because unlike Palpatine, he wasn’t in possession of a network of spies and informants that had been growing in strength for over a millennium, and unlike Palpatine, he wasn’t faced with a Republic as corrupt and unstable as it had become by Palpatine’s.

Palpatine was born with the “power” to do what Bane couldn’t, largely because circumstance meant that not as much “power” was required in achieving the goal.

Pay more attention that you normally would to that last paragraph, and then carefully read through the quote you provided, and you’ll see that it doesn’t conclusively prove that Palpatine possessed a quality that Bane didn’t.

It's not. I've cited a greater variety of sources, all of which nail the coffin shut on the idea that Bane was more influential than Sidious. We won't discuss this again.

No, they don’t, as you’ve yet to actually substantiate what Palpatine achieved through his own merits, you’ve yet to accept the exact scale of Bane’s individual accomplishments, and you’ve yet to accept that from what we know, Bane’s influence extended over a far larger period of time.

You don’t have to continue this, as you quite clearly wouldn’t be able to, but the fact remains that based on existing material, Bane is the most influential Sith Lord there’s ever been, and your attempt at a counter argument hasn’t changed any of that.

As for your other two posts, while you may love reading Publius’ work, I personally find it a tad bit boring, so you really could have highlighted the key points in those two essays like I did with mine, but whatever, I read through them, and as I expected, nothing in there provides a valid case for Palpatine being the more influential Sith Lord of the two. If you disagree, try and actually explain how anything from Publius’ essays reaches your conclusion, because as usual, you’re quoting passages without applying context and substantiating them.

As for you Lt. Valerian, I’d suggest calming it. I mean we’ve all known you’ve been in love with Gideon since pretty much the day you joined here, it’s nothing new to us, but please try to keep these odd feelings to yourself, and not express them so loudly, as it’s coming across as a tad bit creepy, and I’m pretty certain that even Gideon’s starting to get pretty freaked out. I can even somewhat relate to what you’re feeling, in terms of who I respect as debaters, there’s nobody I respect more than Advent, Janus, IKC, or Illustrious, but that doesn’t mean I’ll constantly praise them and insert :I love you: smilies at the end of my every post to them. I reserve that treatment for one person, and one person only: Darth Sexy. Perhaps you should do the same.

Seeng as how I have some time right now, I'm going to entertain the forum by actually responding to your mental retardation.

Originally posted by Nebaris
Either way, given that who you describe as the "embodiment of the idea itself" not only relied on the teachings of Bane and the entire BoD to become what he was, but directly utilised what Bane had alone established and single-handedly made vast (and what had been building in strength for over a millenium) for his rise to power, I really don't see how your argument has a leg to stand on.

Your point? Not many have even read Ro2, and far less would probably have even picked up on the passage which largely supports my argument. Then there's of course the fact that few actually like to argue against the popular concensus, and that even then, not many even care about arguing for Bane. So yeah, what point are you trying to make? Please tell me you’re not about to start appealing to majority.

Firstly, it's not like Bane's appeared in an abundance of sources like Palpatine has, but the fact that the "single source" alone establishes that not only did Bane create what Palpatine would later directly use to exact his revenge on the Jedi, but also that individually, the scope of his own machinations were pretty immense, to the point where his reach extended into the Republic and Jedi Order itself, the "single source," in this case, is adequate in making a case for Bane.

Secondly, it's not like that's the only component of my argument. As I said, he ensured the survival of the Sith for over a millenium through his own actions, by destroying the BoD and creating the Ro2, and his influence spread over a thousand years, which is more than we can say for Palpatine.

Based on what we know, it is pretty conclusive. I mean, can you even substantiate anything that Palpatine achieved on his own merits? I won't claim to know all there is to know about Palpatine and his individual achievements, so if you make a valid case for him, I'd only be too happy to concede the argument, but as it stands, there's nothing that points to him being more influential than Bane.

No, I've proven that he created the network of spies and informants, that he single-handedly made it what it was, and that he had already been putting into place a hundred long-term plans to build its strength (as well as weaken the Republic from within), and that this practise logically would have continued from Master to Apprentice for a thousand years.

"So what?" It means that the best of what Palpatine achieved was entirely dependant on what Bane had single-handedly established, and what he and the Ro2 Sith Lords that followed had been building in strength.

As I said, what did Palpatine truly achieve through his own merits, and how does it compare to the vast number of achievements that Bane possessed?

I can only assume that you haven't been reading my posts properly, as my exact reasoning points to that exact conclusion. As I said, Bane's network of spies would have logically been building in strength all the way up until Palpatine's rise to power, so of course Palpatine's would have been greater in scale, but the point is, Bane was the one who created it from scratch, and Bane individually made it stronger than can be argued for anyone else, including Palaptine, based on existing evidence.

We argue based on what we know, Gideon; Bane's influence extended over a thousand years, and it's more than what we can say for Palpatine.

You have it right there; Palpatine not only relied on the network of spies that Bane had created, single-handedly made strong, and that had been building in strength for over a thousand years, but he's described as being the embodiment of the BoD's teachings and philosphy, indicating that the BoD's teachings in the art of manipulation and such was a huge part of what made Palaptine what he was.

So as we have it, not only are Bane's individual achievements greater than Palpatine's own, not only does his influence spread over a larger time period, but all that Palpatine achieved was largely through Bane and the BoD's actions and teachings rather than through his own merits. As I said, it's conclusive. [/B]

Originally posted by Nebaris
Are Strawmans in this Season or something, as they're being continuously used in this thread.

All that Revan did was confirm ideas that were already coming to Bane; Bane was already coming to the conclusion that the darkside was spread too thin, and hearing that from someone who he considered a great and powerful Sith Lord of the past agree with him basically confirmed his ideas. In short, he provided Bane with inspiration.

The fact remains that Bane still had to put the Ro2 into place, and the fact remains that he was the one who made it strong, and as I’ve mentioned, Palpatine’s atrributes were not only largely in part due to Bane and the BoD’s teachings (which are described as being pretty extreme, and far beyond the minimal inspiration Revan provided Bane with), but he also directly used something that Bane had created to achieve his goals. In short, he pretty much owes everything to Bane, and his achievements are Bane’s by default.

Not at all, because not only have you failed to substantiate anything that Palpatine single-handedly achieved through his own merits, you’re also giving Bane nowhere near the credit he deserves. Based on what we know, his individual machinations > Palpatine’s, and this without the help that Palpatine was receiving.

No it’s not, because if you want to technically analyse the statement, it simply means that Sidious was the one born with the power to return the Sith from hiding in respect to the circumstances surrounding the time.

Bane lacked the “power” to do the same, because unlike Palpatine, he wasn’t in possession of a network of spies and informants that had been growing in strength for over a millennium, and unlike Palpatine, he wasn’t faced with a Republic as corrupt and unstable as it had become by Palpatine’s.

Palpatine was born with the “power” to do what Bane couldn’t, largely because circumstance meant that not as much “power” was required in achieving the goal.

Pay more attention that you normally would to that last paragraph, and then carefully read through the quote you provided, and you’ll see that it doesn’t conclusively prove that Palpatine possessed a quality that Bane didn’t.

No, they don’t, as you’ve yet to actually substantiate what Palpatine achieved through his own merits, you’ve yet to accept the exact scale of Bane’s individual accomplishments, and you’ve yet to accept that from what we know, Bane’s influence extended over a far larger period of time.

You don’t have to continue this, as you quite clearly wouldn’t be able to, but the fact remains that based on existing material, Bane is the most influential Sith Lord there’s ever been, and your attempt at a counter argument hasn’t changed any of that.

As for your other two posts, while you may love reading Publius’ work, I personally find it a tad bit boring, so you really could have highlighted the key points in those two essays like I did with mine, but whatever, I read through them, and as I expected, nothing in there provides a valid case for Palpatine being the more influential Sith Lord of the two. If you disagree, try and actually explain how anything from Publius’ essays reaches your conclusion, because as usual, you’re quoting passages without applying context and substantiating them.

As for you Lt. Valerian, I’d suggest calming it. I mean we’ve all known you’ve been in love with Gideon since pretty much the day you joined here, it’s nothing new to us, but please try to keep these odd feelings to yourself, and not express them so loudly, as it’s coming across as a tad bit creepy, and I’m pretty certain that even Gideon’s starting to get pretty freaked out. I can even somewhat relate to what you’re feeling, in terms of who I respect as debaters, there’s nobody I respect more than Advent, Janus, IKC, or Illustrious, but that doesn’t mean I’ll constantly praise them and insert :I love you: smilies at the end of my every post to them. I reserve that treatment for one person, and one person only: Darth Sexy. Perhaps you should do the same.

No offense Noobaris, but you're the butt of every joke made on KMC, and after 40 bans, you should just quit..