True many of the members are not really putting much time or effort to read through the plans. Or at least lay a comment, as to what came about your decision.
Stating:
X person wins, Y did not convince me. Simply isn’t suffice.
However the bigger problem, are fanatical participants that place a over abundance of emotional investment on a forum activity that is simply meant to be a form of entertainment. No one bitches on the lack of weight or value behind a vote until X person is on the losing side.
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With that said, My vote goes for King Kandy. Simply put, King Kandy has to many forms to contest Zeitgeist simplistic plan thanks to his experience, versatility, items, and speed.
Simply stating, “he wont harm me its out of character“, is a huge risk. Keep in mind, that KK bought level 2 knowledge, couple it with his own peering items, and mental abilities. That makes for an unrealistic assessment, in regards to Strange willingness to put said character down.
Speed issue: drawing schematics, and relaying mechanisms on realism behind magic in regards to its speed can only be addressed in a case by case scenario. This is because magic is written differently depending on the author. However its foolish to think that KK character wont gain from a speed bump. it’s a hybridization of two characters, which means both mythos or laws must be respected. If not, then what was the point, of allow speedsters to be drafted? 😕
Originally posted by id369And every single "form" he had either did not work in the manner he hoped to use it, had an effect that was not at all destructive to my overall plan, or led to the further destruction of his own team.
With that said, My vote goes for King Kandy. Simply put, King Kandy has to many forms to contest Zeitgeist simplistic plan thanks to his experience, versatility, items, and speed.
Originally posted by id369Which would be why I didn't simply state that... Loa was one of the many ways I could take him out. And what risk is it? If he kills her (despite having no possible way, with his amount of knowledge, that she was the enemy), her loss wouldn't affect me at all.
Simply stating, “he wont harm me its out of character“, is a huge risk. Keep in mind, that KK bought level 2 knowledge, couple it with his own peering items, and mental abilities. That makes for an unrealistic assessment, in regards to Strange willingness to put said character down.
If he doesn't approach her, and meditates to go astral, Shadow King attacks his mind. If he approaches Loa, Deadman possesses him or Loa takes him out. If he stands there and casts spells, RRR enters his mind and erases as he goes. If he uses super speed to run around and cast spells... so what? How does that harm me?
If we stalemate, RRR can still harm him as can Doorman, and he can do nothing to either of them.
Originally posted by id369There are many, many characters who could benefit from a speed boost. Karnak, for example. Or a psychic. Or an energy weidler. Or Juggernaut. Or the huge list of characters we could choose from.
Speed issue: drawing schematics, and relaying mechanisms on realism behind magic in regards to its speed can only be addressed in a case by case scenario. This is because magic is written differently depending on the author. However its foolish to think that KK character wont gain from a speed bump. it’s a hybridization of two characters, which means both mythos or laws must be respected. If not, then what was the point, of allow speedsters to be drafted? 😕
Characters merge. They have both powersets. That doesn't mean that you can then adapt and change the rules governing those powers. If I amalgamated Banshee, Human Torch and a symbiote, I wouldn't suddenly lose the Symbiote's weaknesses because it would be detrimental to my case if I didn't. That's asinine.
Originally posted by Zeitgeist
There are many, many characters who could benefit from a speed boost. Karnak, for example. Or a psychic. Or an energy weidler. Or Juggernaut. Or the huge list of characters we could choose from.Characters merge. They have both powersets. That doesn't mean that you can then adapt and change the rules governing those powers. If I amalgamated Banshee, Human Torch and a symbiote, I wouldn't suddenly lose the Symbiote's weaknesses because it would be detrimental to my case if I didn't. That's asinine.
Speedsters rarely have any trouble speaking to one another. Jay, Wally and Bart once had an entire conversation in nanoseconds (speed of sound be damned). Magic users are -- at the most basic level -- just energy wielders that need special words or gestures to make the power work. Super speed shouldn't matter.
In regards to speed and its hybridization. If all it takes is an incantation (reciting words for example), to perform a spell. That’s its weakness, the time it takes to make an incantation. However, KK does not suffer much from a speed lost, given the fact that he depends on Zoom’s natural speed.
That means, moving, fast, thinking fast, and yes speaking fast. Obviously KK is going to operating above the benchmark.
Members do not have to vote strictly on what was brought forth in the debate. KK states, is making use of his experience, items and speed. Members can draw separate conclusion as to how, the match would follow and vote.
Originally posted by Symmetric ChaosAnd yet, once again, we have no indication summoning the magic, be it through incantation, symbols or whatever, and drawing forth a fireball works on the same level that simply using your energy manip to shoot forth a fireball does.
Speedsters rarely have any trouble speaking to one another. Jay, Wally and Bart once had an entire conversation in nanoseconds (speed of sound be damned). Magic users are -- at the most basic level -- just energy wielders that need special words or gestures to make the power work. Super speed shouldn't matter.
We have no indication that the time it takes for a spell to work amplifies with speed.
This was my point alone.
Originally posted by id369Agreed.. but... you still failed to address any of my points, or provide a reasonable path to success for Kandy.
In regards to speed and its hybridization. If all it takes is an incantation (reciting words for example), to perform a spell. That’s its weakness, the time it takes to make an incantation. However, KK does not suffer much from a speed lost, given the fact that he depends on Zoom’s natural speed.That means, moving, fast, thinking fast, and yes speaking fast. Obviously KK is going to operating above the benchmark.
Members do not have to vote strictly on what was brought forth in the debate. KK states, is making use of his experience, items and speed. Members can draw separate conclusion as to how, the match would follow and vote.
Originally posted by Zeitgeist
And yet, once again, we have no indication summoning the magic, be it through incantation, symbols or whatever, and drawing forth a fireball works on the same level that simply using your energy manip to shoot forth a fireball does.We have no indication that the time it takes for a spell to work amplifies with speed.
This was my point alone.
Casting time is reduced. I think that's the only thing Kandy was arguing for.
Originally posted by Symmetric ChaosAnd we have no indication that was given a boost either.
Casting time is reduced. I think that's the only thing Kandy was arguing for.
Does it work on the basis that a person must say all the words, or that they must focus their power for 20 seconds in addition/with an incantation?
One of the many reasons magic is flawed, and a flawed tool for amalgamation.
It’s a flaw point, and a bad use of an analogy used earlier.
More evidence points out, that a spell is perform through an incantation that dependent on reciting words. So really it seems as bias argument, to argue the logic and realism behind magic in regards to speed, where magic continuously defies causality disregarding logic. Hell that’s just an argument, with spells that are known to use incantation, Dr. Strange has a more then a few that just requires focus. And like its perception of speed, his mental wiring is also benefiting from the speed boost which cuts back on the time it takes Dr. Strange to focus.
As for the analogy. Fire is an obvious weakness to the alien Symbiote. One could only imagine what kind of disastrous consequence, would come about in merging with say Johnny.
However that weakness are clearly defined, you have not exactly drawn out or defined what the weakness Dr. Strange would have from performing magic. So what does it take for Strange to perform magic?
Originally posted by Zeitgeist
And we have no indication that was given a boost either.Does it work on the basis that a person must say all the words, or that they must focus their power for 20 seconds in addition/with an incantation?
One of the many reasons magic is flawed, and a flawed tool for amalgamation.
Well it would be up to you Zeitgeist to prove that it is wrong and that certain spells King Kandy was accessing do take a certain amount of time to cast. Just a single scan of Dr. Strange saying, "It takes take to cast this spell! I can't rush it! Magic doesn't work like that!" would have been enough to disprove King Kandy. Otherwise people would have to assume that King Kandy does in fact get a speed boost.
It's the same as how we all assume, despite having no feat history and just one single scan that you posted, that RRR can infact erase minds. It would be up to King Kandy to prove that RRR can not erase minds.
I guess this is all a moot point now, that you've withdrawn from the tournament, but I wanted to at least share my thoughts on the matter.
-Evangel94
Originally posted by Zeitgeist
And we have no indication that was given a boost either.Does it work on the basis that a person must say all the words, or that they must focus their power for 20 seconds in addition/with an incantation?
One of the many reasons magic is flawed, and a flawed tool for amalgamation.
That's a huge (not to mention baseless) stretch.
Originally posted by id369...
More evidence points out, that a spell is perform through an incantation that dependent on reciting words.
Originally posted by id369I don't really see how any of this pertains to what I said...
So really it seems as bias argument, to argue the logic and realism behind magic in regards to speed, where magic continuously defies causality disregarding logic. Hell that’s just an argument, with spells that are known to use incantation, Dr. Strange has a more then a few that just requires focus. And like its perception of speed, his mental wiring is also benefiting from the speed boost which cuts back on the time it takes Dr. Strange to focus.
Originally posted by id369And if magic is based upon location or time spent casting, then I would assume attempting to cast 20 spells within a nanosecond while speeding about the arena would be fairly disastrous, and, at best, completely ineffective.
As for the analogy. Fire is an obvious weakness to the alien Symbiote. One could only imagine what kind of disastrous consequence, would come about in merging with say Johnny.
At best with a symbiote, Johnny couldn't use his powers, and would thus be completely ineffective. The analogy serves its purpose.
Originally posted by id369I have no idea. Seeing as I wasn't the one claiming proof positive, it isn't required of me to prove that Dr. Strange couldn't do what Kandy said. It's up to him to prove that Strange could. Can't prove a negative... etc.
However that weakness are clearly defined, you have not exactly drawn out or defined what the weakness Dr. Strange would have from performing magic. So what does it take for Strange to perform magic?
Originally posted by Evangel94I never claimed they did. I simply asked for proof that they would work in such a manner.
Well it would be up to you Zeitgeist to prove that it is wrong and that certain spells King Kandy was accessing [b]do take a certain amount of time to cast. Just a single scan of Dr. Strange saying, "It takes take to cast this spell! I can't rush it! Magic doesn't work like that!" would have been enough to disprove King Kandy. Otherwise people would have to assume that King Kandy does in fact get a speed boost.It's the same as how we all assume, despite having no feat history and just one single scan that you posted, that RRR can infact erase minds. It would be up to King Kandy to prove that RRR can not erase minds.
I guess this is all a moot point now, that you've withdrawn from the tournament, but I wanted to at least share my thoughts on the matter.
-Evangel94 [/B]
On a side note, it's not up to any body to prove a negative.
But I've provided my proof for RRR, and it's not contradictory of anything.
Furthermore, I'd finally like to point out that, once again (this isn't directed at any one person, mind you), none of this is critical to my plan and to assume that losing this point would lose me the match is simply ignorant.
And, what would be a much more important point for Kandy to debate would be his own ability to meditate at lightspeed (lulz?). Because if he tries to go Astral, he's dead.
I'm glad to see that the lost of you don't understand how magic works. The magic words, the intricate gestures the focal points such as wands are all used to help the person focus. Speeding these things up will get the mind focused faster however I do not see how it would enhance the speed of controling the magical energies of the spells. I n the various magic systems I've seen there is a casting time not just to recite words and to focus, but part of the problem is also based on how fast the magical energy flows. In some cases speeding up the rituals will cause the spell to botch.
I still don't buy that enhancing ones speed will cause a spell to become an instant cast when it previously had a casting time. Because despite the person moving faster the energy would still channel at the same speed as that's how fast that magical energy flows.
Now if someone would like to prove that a spell that has a longer casting time would be cut short because somehow the Magical energys required to complete the spell would be enhanced feel free to.
But NO the burden of proof is on Kandy's shoulders to prove that this trick of his WOULD work rather than just saying it will.
Smurph says that the method will NOT work.
You do not go "Well my speed increase will decrease casting time, prove me wrong"
YOU have to prove that the casting time WILL decrease as you cannot prove a negative.
Originally posted by Zeitgeist
...I don't really see how any of this pertains to what I said...
Originally posted by Zeitgeist
...And if magic is based upon location or time spent casting, then I would assume attempting to cast 20 spells within a nanosecond while speeding about the arena would be fairly disastrous, and, at best, completely ineffective.
That’s circumstantial and I completely disagree.
Originally posted by Zeitgeist
...At best with a symbiote, Johnny couldn't use his powers, and would thus be completely ineffective. The analogy serves its purpose.
I have no idea. Seeing as I wasn't the one claiming proof positive, it isn't required of me to prove that Dr. Strange couldn't do what Kandy said. It's up to him to prove that Strange could. Can't prove a negative... etc.
You are fabricating your analogy, to suit your argument of an magic being an ineffective tool. And many do not deem speed boost, as a negative consequence to a magic wielder.
Well obviously the proof is meant to sway the votes of the voters. And if a voter deems proof is needed, it will be asked. Or else, circular logic will fall upon the participants.
Originally posted by id369You've never played a spell caster.
My points come about, to your argument on how speed boost would benefit a magician.That’s circumstantial and I completely disagree.
You are fabricating your analogy, to suit your argument of an magic being an ineffective tool. And many do not deem speed boost, as a negative consequence to a magic wielder.
Well obviously the proof is meant to sway the votes of the voters. And if a voter deems proof is needed, it will be asked. Or else, circular logic will fall upon the participants.
No, that wasn't a question. It was a statement of fact.