Yeah there should be a tier above Koon and Fisto, but below Kenobi and Maul where Opress and maybe Ventress should be.
Luminara did virtually stalemate Ventress and the official site describes the fighting prowess of Barris and Luminara like this:
"their incredible talents with the lightsaber blade served them well."
So yeah she should be a lot higher.
Are you sure guys? In my opinion, Savage's duels with Ventress, and Plo were much more equal then this one with Kenobi.
Kenobi best Savage, when he was aided by Maul. Maul should be in the same league with Kenobi, or even higher, because of his superior force skills.
Savage had a small advantage over Ventress, but she had just one saber. With two, it might looks quite different.
Savage dueled Koon, and he had small advantage.
Ventress dueled Fisto equally, and finally won. On the other hand, when she dueled injured Koon, she still was unable to tak an advatage. In fact, advantage was on Koon's side.
So:
Kenobi > Opress
Ventress >= Fisto
Ventress < Koon
Opress >= Ventress
Kenobi >= Ventress
Opress >= Koon
Smth like that? For me, only Kenobi have clear advantage over most of them. Maybe the key is, to rank people from tier 4? Savage would be on top. But I'm still not convinced, to put Ventress into a higher tier then Plo's.
Or, maybe smth like that:
Tier 3: Kenobi, Maul
Tier 4: Ventress, Opress, Koon, Bulq
Tier 5: Kolar, Fisto, Tiin, Billaba, Bondara
Tier 6: Ti, Drallig, Mundi, Koth
Still, I have a doubts about Sora in that way. His duel with Mace was more equal then Savage's with Maul or Kenobi.
Look how easily Maul defeated Savage. Look how many simple mistakes Savage did egainst Adi or Kenobi. Adi was much weaker, and unable to turn it into her advantage. Kenobi wasn't. Even with Maul's aid, Savage lost his arm, and I'm not sure about his knee. Did Kenobi broke it?
I don't think, that I'm overrating Koon. It's the fact, that he fought Ventress as equal or more.
In my opinion, you're the one, who overrating Savage a bit. I can agree, that Savage was clearly better then Plo. But still - the difference between him and Koon was smaller, then difference between him and Kenobi.
I don't think that TPM Maul is worse then TCW Maul in sabers. And Bondara fought Maul quite well. He did better then Opress for sure.
And about Bulq - he fought Mace well, was able to force push him. He also had nice advantage over Tholme. And his final duel with Vos is similar to Maul's duel with Kenobi in my opinion. I think, that Bulq was much better then Vos.
1. I'm not looking on the brothers' fight with each other as the final example of how a fight between them would go.
2. That he's fought Ventress as an equal is not denied... especially when we see Savage outmatching Ventress.
3. Uh, according to whom? I'm still questioning Kenobi's apparant superiority over Opress.
4. Bondara is inferior to Jinn who lost to Maul in 30 seconds. Opress is better than both of them.
5. He's better than Vos, sure. Doesn't put him on Opress' level.
Originally posted by Intrepid372. That he's fought Ventress as an equal is not denied... especially when we see Savage outmatching Ventress.
He's right though in pointing out Ventress was at a disadvantage against Ventress, not fighting with her most adept style - Jar Kai.
Originally posted by Intrepid373. Uh, according to whom? I'm still questioning Kenobi's apparant superiority over Opress.
Really?
Kenobi's on par with Maul. So his superiority over the like of Opress and Ventress should not be in question.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
He's right though in pointing out Ventress was at a disadvantage against Ventress, not fighting with her most adept style - Jar Kai.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Really?Kenobi's on par with Maul. So his superiority over the like of Opress and Ventress should not be in question.
Originally posted by Zett
^
Why do you think, that Ki-Adi or Shaak Ti are above Fisto, Kolar, Tiin etc?
Ki-Adi Mundi's performance against Ventress is vastly superior to Fisto's furthermore he was able to duel on par with Grievous for hours while exhausted.
Shaak Ti was particularly mentioned by Dooku in LOE as one of the four members of the Council who would give Grievous hell. Granted she likely got more powerful in the force, but her saber techniques unlikely improved on Felucia. And she was able to give Galen Marek hell in sabers.
Tiin is virtually featless aside from sparring with Mace (which means nothing considering even Quinlan Vos did that).
And Kolar's greatest claim to fame is stomping Vos, which everyone on that list could likely do literally with one hand behind their back.
Originally posted by Intrepid37
wut
I meant Ventress was at an inherent disadvantage against Opress. Her chosen form is Jar Kai. And she was still holding her own when Kenobi through her other Saber after she was disarmed of the first.
Originally posted by Intrepid37Opress' performance against Ventress and Koon is better than any of Kenobi's performances against enemies of the same caliber, and as I said, while Maul is above Opress, I don't take their fight as final.
But none of that really matters when Kenobi has proven more than once that he's on par with Maul, who seems to be above the caliber of Ventress/Opress.
Maybe that's PIS. Just done for the sake of the Kenobi/Maul plot. But that is what they've shown us now.
Originally posted by Zett
@DP
On the other hand, Kenobi never showed clear superiority over Ventress. They fought many times, and it looks like Ventress had the upper hand in a few duels.
I think his win over her in TCW movie was quite decisive personally. The only time I remeber Ventress clearly looking superior to Kenobi is when she was in a rage enhanced state, and even managed to force choke Kenobi and Skywalker together in that fight.
Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Ki-Adi Mundi's performance against Ventress is vastly superior to Fisto's furthermore he was able to duel on par with Grievous for hours while exhausted.
For hours? I don't think so.
Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Shaak Ti was particularly mentioned by Dooku in LOE as one of the four members of the Council who would give Grievous hell. Granted she likely got more powerful in the force, but her saber techniques unlikely improved on Felucia. And she was able to give Galen Marek hell in sabers.
I guess, that in the final version of LoE Dooku was taling about Drallig.
Yeah, Ti gave Marek hell in sabers, but I don't think, that Starkiller is a top swoerdmaster. I even wouldn't put him in Kenobi's and Maul's league.
And about Tiin:
1. He equally spared with Mace (but yeah, it's right, it was just sparing)
2. Shaak Ti considered him (along with Kolar and Fisto) as better then herself:
"Anakin, why? The Masters are the best of the Order. What can you possibly do?" - ROTS novel.
3. He was great telepath, and he his TK had more raw power then Mace's.
Maybe as a swordmaser he isn't technically as good as Fisto or Kolar, but with histelepathy, I guess he can fought them as equal. And with his superior TK he may take advantage over them. Hard to tell.
Well, even if Dooku consider Ti as a supierior to Grievous, we ave to remeber, that Jedi Council believed, that Kolar alone would be a match for Sidious.
Which would leave Mace and Agen Kolar—both among thegreatest bladesbeings the Jedi Order had ever produced—hereon Coruscant in case Sidious did indeed take this opportunity tomake a dramatic move. - ROTS novel
I know, that it's one of Stover's BS. But still, maybe Sidious killed Kolar as first, because he was most dangerous from those 3?
Originally posted by Zett
For hours? I don't think so.
Uhhh unless you think Arc Troopers were able to get a squad ready, get a transport ready, jump to Muunilist and then deploy onto muunlist in minutes you would be wrong.
I guess, that in the final version of LoE Dooku was taling about Drallig.
Most recent revision says Shaak Ti.
Yeah, Ti gave Marek hell in sabers, but I don't think, that Starkiller is a top swoerdmaster. I even wouldn't put him in Kenobi's and Maul's league.
He is almost certainly above the likes of Tiin and Kolar considering he wasn't instantly blitzed and owned by Sidious.
Also considering Ti (albeit on a light side nexus) was able to duel and successfully retreat from Darth Vader at the peak of his power (during the Temple Massacre) seems to suggest she's probably at or around Kenobi and Maul's level.
And about Tiin:
1. He equally spared with Mace (but yeah, it's right, it was just sparing)
2. Shaak Ti considered him (along with Kolar and Fisto) as better then herself:
"Anakin, why? The Masters are the best of the Order. What can you possibly do?" - ROTS novel.
That means nothing considering Anakin himself was easily in the top 3 of the Order and Shaak Ti knows it. Anyone who could solo Dooku could demolish anyone who's name wasn't Yoda or Mace. Also considering Shaak Ti was left to guard the Temple should they fail speaks volumes for their faith in her Cin Draalig and the rest of the Temple Guard.
3. He was great telepath, and he his TK had more raw power then Mace's.
Say what now? I know his TK was formidable but greater than Mace?
Maybe as a swordmaser he isn't technically as good as Fisto or Kolar, but with histelepathy, I guess he can fought them as equal. And with his superior TK he may take advantage over them. Hard to tell.
I doubt he's above Fisto, but perhaps
Well, even if Dooku consider Ti as a supierior to Grievous, we ave to remeber, that Jedi Council believed, that Kolar alone would be a match for Sidious.Which would leave Mace and Agen Kolar—both among thegreatest bladesbeings the Jedi Order had ever produced—hereon Coruscant in case Sidious did indeed take this opportunity tomake a dramatic move. - ROTS novel
No that simply implies they think Agen AND Mace could take on Sidious. Not even Mace Windu for all his humble statements would be fool enough to think that the Master of Dooku would go down to someone far weaker than Dooku.
I know, that it's one of Stover's BS. But still, maybe Sidious killed Kolar as first, because he was most dangerous from those 3?
Possibly, but doubtful. Also Fisto was able to react far better than Agen and Saesee.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Actually, Ventress had more decisive wins against Kenobi than he had her.Yeah, somehow I don't see that happening if he was truly a tier above her. He's not.
Most of those wins were earlier in the Clone Wars, iirc.
Kenobi definitely improves over time, and his win over Anakin is not something that Ventress, Maul, or practically anyone else could do. And it's not just a lucky fluke due to a distracted moment or so on, it was a grueling 10+ minute battle where he defends against Anakin's every attack.
Also, I don't think she could pull the win against Grevious either (she's lost to him before).
Mizukage YodaStart of the Clone Wars:
1. Yoda
2. Mace
3. Depa Bilaba
4. Sora Bulq
5. Shaak Ti
6. Ki-Adi Mundi
7. Anakin Skywalker
8. Plo Koon
9. Kit Fisto
10. Obi-Wan KenobiMid-Late Clone Wars
1. Yoda
2. Mace
3. Anakin Skywalker
4. Obi-Wan Kenobi
5. Shaak Ti
6. Ki-Adi Mundi
7. Plo Koon
8. Kit Fisto
9. Agen Kolar
10. Eeth Koth
Yea, good idea, splitting up the early and late. I like this list.
Tiin is virtually featless aside from sparring with Mace (which means nothing considering even Quinlan Vos did that).
Agreed, Mace spars with everyone and doesn't seem to go all-out.
Zett2. Shaak Ti considered him (along with Kolar and Fisto) as better then herself:
"Anakin, why? The Masters are the best of the Order. What can you possibly do?" - ROTS novel.
I'd interpret that as, "They're members of the group that I would consider the best," not "I consider every last one of them better than me," her statement does not contain a direct comparison to herself, just that she'd consider Anakin's aid unneeded due to their strength. I mean, Mace was in there, and she'd rightly consider him stronger. *Maybe* Fisto too, at a stretch...
... but remember, she's the one who managed to fight her way past Anakin shortly later. I would not bet on Tiin or Kolar or even Fisto doing that!
And Fisto also said he wished that Kenobi or Plo Koon were there with them, so Fisto didn't consider the trio to be the best-best either.
Originally posted by Q99
Most of those wins were earlier in the Clone Wars, iirc.
Their last fight had Ventress taking Obi Wan out of the fight in seconds, and likely would have killed him if Anakin wasn't there helping him. There was another occasion in which she fought off both Kenobi and Skywalker at the same time. Can't remember the episode, but I don't think it was that early.
Originally posted by Q99
Kenobi definitely improves over time
Yeah, I see people say this a lot, as if no one else can improve.
Originally posted by Q99
and his win over Anakin is not something that Ventress, Maul, or practically anyone else could do.
So someone who has either consistently stalemated Kenobi or occasionally owned Kenobi, can't pull off a feat that Kenobi can?
Never mind Anakins mindset in his particular duel with Kenobi, and the fact that Kenobi knows Anakin's moves better than anyone else, thus giving him a better idea of how to deal with a mind-screwed Anakin.
Originally posted by Q99
And it's not just a lucky fluke due to a distracted moment or so on, it was a grueling 10+ minute battle where he defends against Anakin's every attack.
It was a fluke otherwise Obi Wan would be better than Dooku, which we know he's not, because of the fact that he consistently struggled against someone whom Dooku has taken on and defeated while drugged and blind, despite that person having the help of two other force using warriors.
Originally posted by Q99
Also, I don't think she could pull the win against Grevious either (she's lost to him before).
She has pulled off a win against Grievous. And even though she defeated Grievous while on a dark side nexus, but I'm sure if Kit Fisto can casually walk all over Grievous and if Kenobi can make quick work of him, then Ventress is more than capable of pulling a win against him, considering that she has defeated both Obi Wan and Fisto on other occasions.