Bane and De Luke gang up on De siddious

Oh? Bane is stronger than Mace? Are you referring to physical strength, or being 'stronger' than Mace in the force, lightsaber combat, etc... if it's the latter, you're mistaken, but yes, he is physically stronger than Mace.

Bane is both stronger physically and with the force, he was able to pretty much destroy half a planet after all.

However, physical strength isn't the matter- Vader, whose physical skills were at the very least equal to Bane's in terms of strength, was cowed by notion that Sidious would zap him. Why? Doesn't HE have a lightsaber? Couldn't he potentially block Sidious' lightning, if he was really quite so strong? Physical strength is NOT the matter.

Vader was scared of attacking Sidious because sids was stronger than him in the force and was a better duelist than himself. Also, the guy has the galaxy in his pocket, lot's of assassin's and know's all of Vader's weaknesses (his chest)

Oh? The supermely incompetent Leia just happens to be the chosen one's daughter, and although I agree that she was not nearly as strong as Bane, that DOES NOT MATTER. It won't matter how you hold a lightsaber; her lightsaber wasn't tossed from her hand. It was disintergrated. That means that the lightsaber itself was DESTROYED, something that has nothing whatsoever to do with the way the lightsaber is handled.

When people block Sith lightning they do it with the blade, not the hilt. If sidious was able to hit the hilt then Leia was obviously holding it wrong. The age of it would make it much more frial than it might well have been and easier to disintergrate.

Correction: Windu managed to destroy an army of super battle droids with his bare hands and defeat a seismic battle tank. Furthermore, when did Kenobi replicate such a feat? And substantiate and prove Bane is "100 times" as powerful as Kenobi.

1) The cartoons vastly overpowered the character's and I doubt wether they actually count as cannon sources.
2) Kenobi riped GG's chest apart.
3) I was exaggerating. But Bane is stronger.

Yoda is capable of summoning the Force to increase his strength to ridiculous levels. Prove that Yoda was fatigued or surprised (since he had enough time to do an uber combat pose)

Yoda had just had the toughest duel of his life, had been knocked out and had chucked a senate pod around. The guy pants just from walking, I thought it was pretty obvious that he'd be tired.

Prove and substantiate this.

The space that Bane conjured the storm in was capable of housing hundreds of students, so he could logically create a storm large enough to electrocute fifty.

crap, run out of time.

Originally posted by darthsith19
He disintegrated Yoda's lightsaber? I wasn't aware of that, to me it looked like it just flew out of Yoda's hands, not got destroyed. Are you sure about that, cause maybe I'll have to watch that scene again if you are sure.

No, in Dark Empire, he disintergrated Leia's lightsaber. That's something beyond the movies, so yeah... XD.

Originally posted by darthsith19
It isn't? It looked like Mace was using physical strength when he was holding off Sidious's Force Lightning.

And the novel showed Mace being completely overpowered, until Sidious stopped the attack at the last second. Why did he? Who knows. And besides, it's completely irrelevant, since it's down to the simple power of the lightning, rather than the strength of its user.

Originally posted by darthsith19
Mybe not ll of Sidious's assaults, but I still see no reason why he couldn't block lightning with his saber; Mace did it, so it can be done and doesn't disintegrate lightsabers.

There's a reason that it's "DE Sidious", and not "ROTS Sidious"... if this was ROTS Sidious, the argument would've been entirely different, and ROTS Sidious would likely lose... not by a lot, but probably lose after killing/injuring one of them.

Originally posted by darthsith19
Why not? Mace's did, why not Bane's? And, so far as I could tell, Yoda's was never destroyed, it just got knocked out of his one hand and got lost in the depths of the Great Rotunda. And, Bane beat Kas'im with a Force Power, he learned lots of tricks from Revan, and brute Force does work. It worked when he beat Sirak both times, oh and he killed Fohargh using the Force. He killed Qordis using the Force. He attacked the army of light by using his and the rest of the Brotherhood's powers combined and unleashing a super powerful Force attack on them. So yeah he does use the Force to fight, too.

As multiple canon sources confirmed, there is little to debate regarding the fact that 'Sidious is the most powerful Sith Lord ever', and by that indication, it's fairly obivious that he is also stronger int the force than Bane. Strong as he was with the force, I see no way he uses one of these uber force waves to overcome Sidious before the lightning hits him... if Kas'im blocked it, then it's obivious Sidious can. Kas'im wasn't even a specialist in force powers- he was a weaponmaster- and yet he blocked a wave of force capable of reducing him to Twi'lek milkshake. Sidious is stronger than Kas'im, so logic says that he would also be capable of blocking Bane's strongest attack.

Originally posted by darthsith19
Hmm, I can't remember the duel that well but it seems like if Luke could land a blow on Sidious at all, he shouldn't be pwned by him so quickly. It'd be like if Kit Force Pushed Sidious into a wall and then was killed like he was.

Exactly. Imagine the following scenario; Kit Fisto comes to arrest Sidious, Sidious just grabs a lightsaber, and Kit pushes him. Sidious loses balance, quickly springs back to his legs, and kill Kit in two blows. I would call that 'pwned', wouldn't you? And Luke just happened to push Sidious seconds after the guy just resurrected/reanimated himself in a new clone body. I won't call it a 'fair blow', if it was in the middle of combat, I'm confident Sidious would avoid it.

Originally posted by Darth Exodus
1) The cartoons vastly overpowered the character's and I doubt wether they actually count as cannon sources.

Once again, I appreciate the lawyer's maneuver, trying to exploit a loophole, but once again -- you're no Alan Shore or Sebastian Stark. According to the Clone Wars commentary, George Lucas said that the events and abilities depicted therein were "exactly what [he would] imagine" real Jedi to be, one man armies and capable of extremely potent attacks with the Force that, for obvious reasons, cannot be replicated on cinema.

2) Kenobi riped GG's chest apart.

He pulled the chest cavity apart, something entirely different than punching one's fist through scores and scores of supremely durable battle droids.

3) I was exaggerating. But Bane is stronger.

Based on what? That he looks bigger?

Yoda had just had the toughest duel of his life, had been knocked out and had chucked a senate pod around. The guy pants just from walking, I thought it was pretty obvious that he'd be tired.

This doesn't cut it, Darth Exodus. Yoda's incredibly advanced years and weakened physiology make him rely totally on the Force for such maneuvers, which is exactly what he did. That he pants while he walks is no indication that he would be equally fatigued during a lightsaber duel with "the Force as his ally". You must prove that he was fatigued when Darth Sidious relieved him of his lightsaber.

The space that Bane conjured the storm in was capable of housing hundreds of students, so he could logically create a storm large enough to electrocute fifty.

Please. I doubt it is in your best interest to argue 'size' in any arena; we're discussing potency. Prove that Bane's Force lightning could annihilate fifty stormtroopers or disintegrate three Sith acolytes.

Bane already demonstrated the ability to turn living beings to ash with his lightning.

Before they even hit the ground he'd turned his attention to the third opponent, unleashing a storm of Sith lightning that reduced the riders to ash and the drexl into a hunk of charred and smoking flesh that dropped from the sky.

It'd be up to you prove that the acolytes were, at the time, putting up some sort of defense for Sidious to have to fight through, because just being Force-sensitive doesn't make one naturally resistant to Force-based attacks.

I'll look into it.

In the meantime, what were those riders? Were they human? Alien? Force sensitive? Trained Force users (like the acolytes)? How many of them were there?

The beast-riders, Escape. All human, non-Force-sensitive, and there were three. Outside of that little confrontation, there were eight others, all distributed amongst three other drexl.

Edit: For the record, I voted for Palpatine.

Originally posted by Faunus

It'd be up to you prove that the acolytes were, at the time, putting up some sort of defense for Sidious to have to fight through, because just being Force-sensitive doesn't make one naturally resistant to Force-based attacks.

Its what i think it is but please don't bash me for it.

Originally posted by Ivalice
Thats a good point, but its not like sidious despite his immense strength of the force can't shatter their force defences(assuming they put them up) seeing that bane was able to do so in path of destruction.

Its what i think it is but please don't bash me for it.

I wouldn't exactly say that they are low level dark siders considering that the dark empire source book stated that it takes considerable power to utilise sith alchemy. I think gideon has that quote since i don't have the DESB

Originally posted by Ivalice
I wouldn't exactly say that they are low level dark siders considering that the dark empire source book stated that it takes considerable power to utilise sith alchemy. I think gideon has that quote since i don't have the DESB

Dark Side Sourcebook. I can have the quote to you by Monday, or if we're really lucky, later on today. I'm having no luck finding the comic where Darth Vader fought Darth Maul (which is where Sidious disintegrated those three Prophets).

And the novel showed Mace being completely overpowered, until Sidious stopped the attack at the last second. Why did he? Who knows.

He probably stopped because half his face had been burnt off. That tend's to stop me.

Based on what? That he looks bigger?

No, based on the fact that he's spent his entire life doing extremely hard physical exercise/labour, he was described as 'a mountain of muscle', he was much stronger with the force than Mace (which helps) and that the orbalisk's increase his already potent strength and force power. Also, Mace is older so would have to draw on the force more to maintain maximum strength.

Please. I doubt it is in your best interest to argue 'size' in any arena;

Oh, a penis joke. How mature. 😒

we're discussing potency. Prove that Bane's Force lightning could annihilate fifty stormtroopers or disintegrate three Sith acolytes.

Contrary to what you (desparately) hope, size does matter. If Bane can create a lightning storm large enough to encapsulate 50 stormtrooper's in its effects then they would all feel the same amount of power. As Faunus kindly pointed out in his (excellent) post, Bane does have the power to disintergrate his opponants. If he can do that then it stand's to reason that he can produce a storm with the power to merely kill 50 trooper's. The possibility of chain lightning might also play a factor but as a whole most things that get hit by lightning, especially with the killing power that Bane has displayed, die fairly quickly.

Also, would it be possible for you to find the page where Palps kills his own troops in such a display. I want to know the circumstances etc.

Originally posted by Darth Exodus

Contrary to what you (desparately) hope, size does matter. If Bane can create a lightning storm large enough to encapsulate 50 stormtrooper's in its effects then they would all feel the same amount of power. As Faunus kindly pointed out in his (excellent) post, Bane does have the power to disintergrate his opponants. If he can do that then it stand's to reason that he can produce a storm with the power to merely kill 50 trooper's. The possibility of chain lightning might also play a factor but as a whole most things that get hit by lightning, especially with the killing power that Bane has displayed, die fairly quickly.

Also, would it be possible for you to find the page where Palps kills his own troops in such a display. I want to know the circumstances etc.

Sidious-is-stronger-than-Bane-in-the-force. Why do you constantly refuse to accept the fact that multiple canon sources- including GL himself- have clarified Sidious as the strongest-sith-lord-ever by ROTS. And in DE, he's stronger... now then, 'strongest' means he was the strongest in the force, best with a lightsaber, best overall fighter... I think you're being quite desperate. You continue to ignore the fact that it is CONFIRMED Sidious is stronger than Bane in the force. That means Bane is overpowered in a force match. Period.

Originally posted by Darth Exodus
He probably stopped because half his face had been burnt off. That tend's to stop me.

"Palpatine, who has delved extensively into Sith lore, was using an almost-forgotten technique to hide his true self."
¯Gary M. Sarli

It is confirmed that it wasn't the actual LIGHTNING that disfigured him- rather, the dark side energies ravaged his frame and resulted in an 'illusion' power he was keeping on, revealing his true self. In addition, the lightning might be painful; but Sidious, being a master of the dark side, would generally used pain in order to enhance his own abilities, giving ni to it and channeling it into more power.

Originally posted by Sidi-Boy
Why do you constantly refuse to accept the fact that multiple canon sources- including GL himself- have clarified Sidious as the strongest-sith-lord-ever by ROTS.

And in DE, he's stronger... now then, 'strongest' means he was the strongest in the force, best with a lightsaber, best overall fighter...

Originally posted by Faunus
I'd like to see those. The only statement I'm aware of that hails Palpatine as the most powerful as of RotS is the NEC, and that's from the perspective of a fallible, in-universe character.

With all due respect, Faunus, we've been down this road before. Those, in the past, who have challenged the statements issued by the New Essential Chronology also seem to champion quotes made by other fallible, in-universe characters, such as Kreia. That isn't how it works. Most people subscribed to the idea that all of the Ancient Sith > KotOR era Force users because Kreia once said that the Ancient Sith would make the combatants of her generation look like children playing with toys, but we took it into consideration because she is a Sith historian. That said, the New Essential Chronology represent the research of a highly specialized team of historians with the resources of a galactic superpower at their disposal, which would indicate even more credibility than we can associate with Traya.

Originally posted by Gideon
With all due respect, Faunus, we've been down this road before. Those, in the past, who have challenged the statements issued by the New Essential Chronology also seem to champion quotes made by other fallible, in-universe characters, such as Kreia. That isn't how it works. Most people subscribed to the idea that all of the Ancient Sith > KotOR era Force users because Kreia once said that the Ancient Sith would make the combatants of her generation look like children playing with toys, but we took it into consideration because she is a Sith historian. That said, the New Essential Chronology represent the research of a highly specialized team of historians with the resources of a galactic superpower at their disposal, which would indicate even more credibility than we can associate with Traya.

And again, I'm not refuting that by the OT period, Sidious is the most powerful Sith there ever was, even though I think it's a stupid idea (blanket statement = fail). But as of RotS it doesn't appear to be the case.

For the record, the Death Star quote, just like all of the quotes on the matter, is miles from being conclusive.

"Vader could sense the hostility of some of the men behind Tarkin, but that was of no importance. Hostile words or actions he could and would deal with, but thoughts of the weak-minded were no threat.
Tarkin, oily and smooth as always, was a man who knew where his best interests lay, and as long as his own plans matched those of the Emperor, he was a useful tool. Which was good, because Vader would not hesitate to use that tool.

The Rebels were turning out to be more troublesome than many had expected. The Emperor had known it would be thus, of course; the resistance had not been a surprise to him. The Emperor was completely in concert with the dark side of the Force. He was the most powerful Sith who had ever existed.

As would Vader be, someday.

But that was in the future. Now he had more mundane duties. There were problems with the construction of this station. When Vader left, those problems would be corrected. He would return as necessary to correct more troubles as they appeared, and he would also return at times when things were proceeding smoothly, just to remind Tarkin and his senior officers that the Emperor's eye was always watching them.
Always."

Firstly, it's stated that "The Emperor was completely in concert with the dark side of the Force," meaning he worked completely in accordance with the darkside, and that every action he took was with the the dark side's best wishes at heart. That being said, such dedication, from one perspective, can be seen as what made him "the most powerful Sith who had ever existed," as it meant that he went to lengths that no other Sith would, to ensure the success of both the dark side, and the Sith. That doesn't make him the most powerful, from a combat standpoint, however, which is all that matters in a thread like this.

...and if people still wish to argue against that (which would be stupid, as everything I've said is absolutely correct, and no valid case can be made against it), there's also the fact that it's highly likely that the statement itself is being indirectly voiced by a fallible character (Vader) rather than actually by the omniscient narrator, and I say this because not only does the passage constantly refer to Vader's thoughts and perceptions and stuff in general that is very specific to him, but the exact statement in question: "He was the most powerful Sith who had ever existed," is directly followed by "As would Vader be, someday." If we were to assume that this is all coming from the omniscient narrator, then we would be forced to subscribe to the idea that Vader eventually did become the most powerful Sith there had ever been, and by extension more powerful than Sidious, which, no matter how you look at it (economical power, political power, military power, social power, power in combat... whatever), makes no sense whatsoever.

Hello, Nebaris.

Originally posted by Faunus
I'm not talking about Traya;

But I am, because it is an example of the many times where we have all placed great faith in the statement made by a fallible third party. Unless you mean to tell me that you never did, which might be the case, as I can't recall.

I'm talking about the NEC, and while the in-universe character responsible for that statement is obviously extremely well-informed, considering he knows about Marka Ragnos and God knows who else, he is not qualified to make a conclusive, blanket statement on the power of a certain Force-sensitive individual in comparison to another.

The chronology was written by Voren Na'al, who is the head of a council of historians for the Galactic Alliance, a galactic superpower. We put stock in Kreia's blanket statements, as well as those of others, but this guy curbstomps Traya in terms of credibility and resources, so since Sidious has demonstrate feats and other sources corroborate the chronology, why can't we agree?

And again, I'm not refuting that by the OT period, Sidious is the most powerful Sith there ever was, even though I think it's a stupid idea (blanket statement = fail). But as of RotS it doesn't appear to be the case.

I know, and Sidious isn't the only one provided for a blanket statement, Yoda has had them, as has Ragnos. But I'm more or less disagreeing with the logic that you use.

The space that Bane conjured the storm in was capable of housing hundreds of students, so he could logically create a storm large enough to electrocute fifty.

Contrary to what you (desparately) hope, size does matter. If Bane can create a lightning storm large enough to encapsulate 50 stormtrooper's in its effects then they would all feel the same amount of power. As Faunus kindly pointed out in his (excellent) post, Bane does have the power to disintergrate his opponants. If he can do that then it stand's to reason that he can produce a storm with the power to merely kill 50 trooper's. The possibility of chain lightning might also play a factor but as a whole most things that get hit by lightning, especially with the killing power that Bane has displayed, die fairly quickly.

Damn... that was a very good point. I never really thought about it like that, but you're right, the room was capable of housing hundreds of students, and the storm was described as "filling" the room, meaning it encompassed the vast majority of the room.

And only an hour after Bane had first learnt how to summon lightning at that. 😂

And to think that some people believe that Obi-wan Kenobi can take him on!!!! 😆 😆 🤣

Originally posted by Darth Exodus
And to think that some people believe that Obi-wan Kenobi can take him on!!!! 😆 😆 🤣

Funny. Obi-Wan's skills with a lightsaber are at least equal to Bane's, but I think that Bane's superb force mastery will win him against Kenobi. It's not such a weird concept, Obi beating Bane, so please, use some proper arguments if you think that. Or direct me to some proper arguments. xD

Anyway, I'm pretty confident Lucas said Sidious was the strongest Sith Lord ever, but I can't find the exact quote 🙁 . Maybe somebody else can...

NES is as canon as it gets; the statements that contradicted established canon are non-canon, but NOTHING contradicts the fact that Sidious was the strongest Sith Lord ever. NOTHING was done to imply otherwise. Saying that "Yoda could not defeat the strongest sith lord in history" established that Sidious IS the strongest.

By the way- the movie's novelization, which is actually considered g-canon (see the article on Wookieepedia), calls Yoda "the most devestatingly powerful foe the darkness have ever known". Incidentally, it also depicted Sidious completely overloading Yoda and quite pwning him... unless the gap between the Jedi and Sith is so extreme, wouldn't someone who can defeat the strongest foe the darkness had seen up until that point be called the strongest foe the LIGHT had ever known?

Bane is close to ROTS Sidious' level on Force Mastery and Saber Mastery, but he's probably more similar to Anakin's level in sabers at least. Sidious is stronger than him, and as I don't remember Bane knowing battle meditation, Luke would get schooled in a swordfight. Possibly in the force, too.

The fact is, I don't remember Bane ravaging entire fleets with a single force ability... lightning is a standard dark side ability, which both mastered to the utmost degree, but Sidious' strength in the force; in addition to him taking the lightning one notch up- will win him the fight in such a struggle.

And we know Luke, by DE, can't possibly defeat any incarnation of Sidious, once Bane gets taken out, the fight is basically over.