RotS Mace Windu VS RotS Count Dooku

Mace would take it. I really don't know about Sidious vs. Mace (I'm not so sure Sidious didn't throw the fight... but that belongs in another thread), but yeah, Anakin vs. Dooku showed us both that Anakin was tapping into the dark side, and that Dooku is 'slipping'. Growing old. As Mace is probably stronger than Anakin at the moment, I'd say that Dooku's skills just won't be enough to beat Mace.

Also, I noticed on a LOAD of threads people seem to interpret sith as 'relying on their force powers' rather than the lightsaber... that's really weird, as most upper-tier Sith can handle a lightsaber better than 99.9% of the Jedi. Of course, that .1% is Yoda, Mace, Anakin, Obi-Wan, etc..., but yeah.

So- It's an arguable tie in pure skill (lightsaber combat), in force mastery I'd say Mace wins because of his ability to channel the darkness of an opponent using the Vaapad thing (don't compare Dooku lightning to Sidious lightning. One had Yoda catch it like a baseball ball, the other sent him flying across the senate room), and his immense telekinetic ability. All in all, Mace wins due to superior physical condition and Vaapad.

Originally posted by Sidi-Boy
Anakin vs. Dooku showed us both that Anakin was tapping into the dark side, and that Dooku is 'slipping'. Growing old.

As Mace is probably stronger than Anakin at the moment, I'd say that Dooku's skills just won't be enough to beat Mace.

So- It's an arguable tie in pure skill (lightsaber combat),

in force mastery I'd say Mace wins because of his ability to channel the darkness of an opponent using the Vaapad thing

(don't compare Dooku lightning to Sidious lightning. One had Yoda catch it like a baseball ball, the other sent him flying across the senate room),

And by that logic, and going by RotS or pre-RotS showings, Dooku put Anakin out for a few minutes on end, and had Sora Bulq floored for even longer. Then there's Ventress...

I'm not arguing that Dooku's lightning is as powerful as Sidious'. But I think the way in which a lot of you are getting to your conclusion is stupid.

and his immense telekinetic ability.

Well, we have to look at a few things...

Mace is the better swordsman. He mastered all 7 main Forms, and Dooku is only known to have mastered 1 out of the 3 he knows.
Mace's ability to increase his own strength and speed through tapping into his own Dark side will close any power gap between he and Dooku, as it successfully did against Sidious.
His ability to perceive a shatterpoint nearly guarantees a victory, because we know that at some point in the duel, the shatterpoint will be found and struck.

With Force powers Mace and Dooku are nearly equals. Because Mace didn't happen to fall back on the Force much in his fights in the movies, most fans assume he isn't very strong in them offensively.
Shatterpoint showed us how he used the Force to ride a hill, whilst controlling it with telekinesis - a feat only someone like Dooku or Yoda could manage.
His ability to Force Crush is significantly powerful and effective, and only Darth Vader is shown to have that ability around this era, other then he.
Even though Dooku is a Sith, he will still be able to be killed by the Dark side technique.
In fact, in terms of a Force battle, If Dooku arrayed his hands to shoot lightning, Mace in contrast would clench his fist and Dooku's torso would promptly explode from the inside, crippling him horrifically.

In an all out fight If Mace makes use of his ability to use his Broken Gate Mastery paired with his ability to speed up the molecules in his fists to heat them up (As seen in Clone Wars V1) then he would effectively rend Dooku apart gorily.

Either way, Windu wins, I would say all 3, winning the second just barely.

This isn't easy at all for him, It's still the fight of his life, but he beats Dooku into the dirt - and runs him through.

Originally posted by Master_Starbuck
Well, we have to look at a few things...

Mace is the better swordsman. He mastered all 7 main Forms, and Dooku is only known to have mastered 1 out of the 3 he knows.

While I believe Mace will win the lighstaber duel however i don't recall Mace ever being stated to master all the main 7 forms while Dooku did have knowledge in all the main forms (including Juyo and save for vapaad) as he was the one who taught General Grievious in lightsaber combat.

And why would Dooku want to master all the forms? One is enough. As Kas'im said, it's better to focus on your own style, than master all the styles to know how others fight.

To learn and Master Juyo you need to have mastered all the other Forms before it - thus Juyo being a combination of all the main Forms.

As for Dooku knowing as 7 Forms, I hadn't thought of him teaching Grevious, It's a good point and I'll have to look into that...

Your right, according to sources, Dooku had proficient knowledge of all 7 Forms, but didn't have mastery over all of them.

Windu does however, which still puts him ahead of Dooku in swordsmanship.

Originally posted by tauros
And why would Dooku want to master all the forms? One is enough. As Kas'im said, it's better to focus on your own style, than master all the styles to know how others fight.

Actually it's better to focus on other styles as well, that way when you know the style your enemy does, you know its precise strength's and weaknesses - you know your enemy.

That and it makes you incredibly flexable and adaptable. 😉

I see no one has voted for Dooku in the poll. C'mon, nobody thinks he can win? 😉

At least this thread proves people have gotten smarter around here...shocking

Originally posted by Master_Starbuck
Actually it's better to focus on other styles as well, that way when you know the style your enemy does, you know its precise strength's and weaknesses - you know your enemy.

That and it makes you incredibly flexable and adaptable. 😉

Darth Bane learned about all of the forms and of the duel-bladed moves and he defeated Kas'im.
I believe that, as a duelist, you should have a rudimentary knowledge of all forms, styles, and weapon combos.

Heh, well you don't need it, but it helps. 😉

What's your opinion on this fight?

Originally posted by Master_Starbuck
Well, we have to look at a few things...

Mace is the better swordsman. He mastered all 7 main Forms, and Dooku is only known to have mastered 1 out of the 3 he knows.

That leaves four forms - Shii-Cho, Ataru, Djem So, and Juyo - as those that Mace has probably achieved proficiency or mastery in while developing Vaapad, whereas Dooku, as EH pointed out, has at least some degree of proficiency in every major saber form, and an unparalleled mastery of Makashi.

So no, Mace does not have the same degree of technical skill and knowledge as Dooku; the only reason he would win a duel would be his advanced shatterpoint ability, and that does not work instantaneously.

Mace's ability to increase his own strength and speed through tapping into his own Dark side will close any power gap between he and Dooku, as it successfully did against Sidious.
His ability to perceive a shatterpoint nearly guarantees a victory, because we know that at some point in the duel, the shatterpoint will be found and struck.

Shatterpoint showed us how he used the Force to ride a hill, whilst controlling it with telekinesis - a feat only someone like Dooku or Yoda could manage.

The landslide built into a wave of its own that filled in the gully as it rolled down toward the steamcrawler and the screaming, sobbing children-and on the very crest of that wave of dirt and rock, backpedaling furiously to keep from being sucked under by the landslide's roll, came Mace Windu.

Mace rode that crest while the wave sank and flattened and finally lurched to a halt, its last remnants trickling into a ridge that joined Mace's position with the corner of the steamcrawler's cabin. Nearly all his concentration stayed submerged in the Force, spread throughout the slide, using a wide-focus Force grip to stabilize the rubble while he scrambled down to the steamcrawler's roof.

All he does is trigger the landslide, then ride the wave down to the steamcrawler. He even points out that Yoda would've had a much easier time of it:

Mace opened himself to the Force. He could hear Yoda's voice: Size matters not-which, Mace had always privately considered, was more true for Yoda than it was for any of his students. Yoda would probably just reach out, lift the steamcrawler from the gully, and ca sually float it up the mountain to the outpost while croaking some enigmatic maxim about how Even a volcano is as nothing, compared to the power of the Force... Mace was much less confident in his own raw power.

His ability to Force Crush is significantly powerful and effective, and only Darth Vader is shown to have that ability around this era, other then he.

Even though Dooku is a Sith, he will still be able to be killed by the Dark side technique.
In fact, in terms of a Force battle, If Dooku arrayed his hands to shoot lightning, Mace in contrast would clench his fist and Dooku's torso would promptly explode from the inside, crippling him horrifically.

And on that note, what is Mace going to do against the technique Dooku uses on Ventress? You seem to think that Mace is going to "outspeed" Dooku's lightning by just clenching his fist; all the Count has to do is lift a finger.

"Don't patronize me," Asajj said coldly.

Dooku looked around. "Or what?"

Her face went pale. Dooku lifted that one finger, and this time he tapped it in the air, as if pushing a needle into a pincushion. Ventress crumpled to her knees. Her voice came out clotted with pain.

"Please," she said. "Don't."

"It doesn't feel very good, does it? Like sharp stones in your throat and chest."

Dooku made another little patting motion, and Ventress slammed to the tile floor.

"It's the blood vessels I hate," Dooku said. "The way they stretch inside, like balloons about to pop."

"P-p-p-please..."

"But worse than anything is the memories," he said, more softly still. "They crowd around, like flies on meat. Every despicable thing, every petty vice, every little act of spite."

A cruel, strange quiet stretched out as Ventress panted on the stone floor. Rain ticked against the window glass, and the Count's soft voice went dark and far away.

In an all out fight If Mace makes use of his ability to use his Broken Gate Mastery paired with his ability to speed up the molecules in his fists to heat them up (As seen in Clone Wars V1) then he would effectively rend Dooku apart gorily.

2) Heat up the molecules in his fists? That was never mentioned in Shatterpoint, when he gets his ass handed to him by Kar Vastor.

3) And is Dooku just going to stand there and get pounded into the ground? If Mace is unarmed, Dooku eventually tears him apart with Sith lightning; there's absolutely nothing he can do about it.
Either way, Windu wins, I would say all 3, winning the second just barely.

This isn't easy at all for him, It's still the fight of his life, but he beats Dooku into the dirt - and runs him through.

But in a pure Force contest, there's nothing to suggest that Mace could hold his own.

Blast, gotta go. I'll answer your questions tomorow though. ^_~

Originally posted by Master_Starbuck
What's your opinion on this fight?

Mace would spit-shine his transport with what's left of Dooku's head IMO.

Originally posted by Faunus
It's stated that a Juyo master must be a "high-level master of multiple forms." Multiple =/= all, and his conversation with Obi-Wan essentially confirms that he isn't a master of Soresu. Dooku's familiarity with the mechanics driving Ataru would be enough to offset any advantage Mace has there as well, as both his master and Padawan studied the form. Niman is basically a hash of the standard forms tossed together (in other words, worthless), and I believe Dooku was stated to be the only master of Makashi in the era.

That leaves four forms - Shii-Cho, Ataru, Djem So, and Juyo - as those that Mace has probably achieved proficiency or mastery in while developing Vaapad, whereas Dooku, as EH pointed out, has at least some degree of proficiency in every major saber form, and an unparalleled mastery of Makashi.

So no, Mace does not have the same degree of technical skill and knowledge as Dooku; the only reason he would win a duel would be his advanced shatterpoint ability, and that does not work instantaneously.

In a duel? Yeah, Mace might eventually find a weakness. That doesn't mean he'd actually be completely capable of capitalizing on it; if Dooku were to turn this into a Force contest, Mace would lose, plain and simple.

This feat has been blown drastically out of proportion; Janus cleared it up a while ago.

[b]The landslide built into a wave of its own that filled in the gully as it rolled down toward the steamcrawler and the screaming, sobbing children-and on the very crest of that wave of dirt and rock, backpedaling furiously to keep from being sucked under by the landslide's roll, came Mace Windu.

Mace rode that crest while the wave sank and flattened and finally lurched to a halt, its last remnants trickling into a ridge that joined Mace's position with the corner of the steamcrawler's cabin. Nearly all his concentration stayed submerged in the Force, spread throughout the slide, using a wide-focus Force grip to stabilize the rubble while he scrambled down to the steamcrawler's roof.

All he does is trigger the landslide, then ride the wave down to the steamcrawler. He even points out that Yoda would've had a much easier time of it:

Mace opened himself to the Force. He could hear Yoda's voice: Size matters not-which, Mace had always privately considered, was more true for Yoda than it was for any of his students. Yoda would probably just reach out, lift the steamcrawler from the gully, and ca sually float it up the mountain to the outpost while croaking some enigmatic maxim about how Even a volcano is as nothing, compared to the power of the Force... Mace was much less confident in his own raw power.

He only ever uses it on droids and cyborgs; there's no indication that it would have a remote chance of working on a Sith Lord who appears to be more powerful than Mace himself.

This is stupid. Jedi are trained to resist forms of kinesis from birth; Mace manages to break free from the Force grip of the significantly more powerful Kar Vastor while being hurled through the air like a rag doll. Dooku is, if anything, even more powerful than Mace, and Force Crush is a variant of kinesis. As an accomplished Sith Lord of thirteen years, it's one that he would almost certainly be familiar with it.

And on that note, what is Mace going to do against the technique Dooku uses on Ventress? You seem to think that Mace is going to "outspeed" Dooku's lightning by just clenching his fist; all the Count has to do is lift a finger.

"Don't patronize me," Asajj said coldly.

Dooku looked around. "Or what?"

Her face went pale. Dooku lifted that one finger, and this time he tapped it in the air, as if pushing a needle into a pincushion. Ventress crumpled to her knees. Her voice came out clotted with pain.

"Please," she said. "Don't."

"It doesn't feel very good, does it? Like sharp stones in your throat and chest."

Dooku made another little patting motion, and Ventress slammed to the tile floor.

"It's the blood vessels I hate," Dooku said. "The way they stretch inside, like balloons about to pop."

"P-p-p-please..."

"But worse than anything is the memories," he said, more softly still. "They crowd around, like flies on meat. Every despicable thing, every petty vice, every little act of spite."

A cruel, strange quiet stretched out as Ventress panted on the stone floor. Rain ticked against the window glass, and the Count's soft voice went dark and far away.

1) Where is Mace stated to be a master of the Broken Gate style?

2) Heat up the molecules in his fists? That was never mentioned in Shatterpoint, when he gets his ass handed to him by Kar Vastor.

3) And is Dooku just going to stand there and get pounded into the ground? If Mace is unarmed, Dooku eventually tears him apart with Sith lightning; there's absolutely nothing he can do about it.
Either way, Windu wins, I would say all 3, winning the second just barely.

In a strict duel? Probably. In an all-out fight? Maybe.

But in a pure Force contest, there's nothing to suggest that Mace could hold his own. [/B]

Okay, you raised some very good points. 😉

Well first off, seeing as how Form VII is the byproduct of completely combining all of the main Forms, it is essential for the practitioner to at least gain a focused knowledge of all the main Forms in order to successfully learn Juyo - and in this I mean that whilst a person is learning Juyo, they are learning every technique of every main Form though put into different dimensions within the current Form they are learning. Consequently, when a Jedi masters Juyo, they gain mastery in every Form before it through merit of association.

By the way, precisely which conversation is supposed to show that Mace isn't a Master of Soresu?
Mace has mastered Soresu, as Yoda has - but it was revealed in LoE that Obi-Wan had mastered it to a degree above all other Jedi, even more than some others who had also mastered the art.

Due to his Juyo and Vapaad mastery, Mace has an equal If not surpassed familiarity of Ataru, so Dooku would not be able to use this against him, If anything it would most likely be the other way around.
"Niman is basically a hash of the standard forms tossed together (in other words, worthless)"
Lol, aww, so mean. 😉 Actually Niman is a quite reliable Form and is well-balanced. It get's a bad rap due to the people that used it were generally green Knights and Padawans facing hundreds of blaster-wielding combatants in a closed-in environment.
That and Jango Fett, one of the greatest Mandalorians ever using a Mandalorian coined technique that allows them to time their shots through the defense of a lightsaber's blade.
Also, Master Tholme If I'm not mistaken was also a Master of Makashi.

"That leaves four forms - Shii-Cho, Ataru, Djem So, and Juyo - as those that Mace has probably achieved proficiency or mastery in while developing Vaapad, whereas Dooku, as EH pointed out, has at least some degree of proficiency in every major saber form, and an unparalleled mastery of Makashi. "

Again, due to his Mastery in Juyo, he had mastered those said Forms and of course, the rest, especially during his conception of Vapaad.
Whilst Dooku had some degree of profiency is those Forms stated above, he was only known to have mastered Makashi, and while his mastery of said art was extremely great - the characteristics and qualities of a much deadlier style of swordsmanship would seal Dooku's fate, as a corpse.

So, your right, Mace does not have the same degree of technical skill and knowledge as Dooku. Upon revision of his swordsmanship, it is now known that his degree of technical skill and knowledge surpasses Dooku, and while the Shatterpoint ability may not be instantaneous in the duel, the sheer sum of techniques found in Vapaad would be enough for Windu to utilize an effective defense until the shatterpoint could be located and struck.

If Dooku tried to use his lightning Mace would redirect it with moderate difficulty and cut him down.

I have to say, you pointed nothing out about the easiness of manipulating a giant mound of earth weighing a few tons and managing to control it as it speeds down a hill in the middle of a storm.
I do realize that Janus does indeed work for George Lucas and even outranks Leeland Chee it terms of merit of opinion but I have to boldly say that he's quite wrong and I found the sentences proceeding the end of your quotation of Shatterpoint to be most interesting...
This is where your quote of the book ended:
"....Mace was much less confident in his own raw power"
Then, it continues with:
"But he had other talents.
A new tremor from the eruption shook the dirt cliff under his feet. He felt it sag: undercut by the river of lava, the shaking was rapidly destroying the cliff's structural integrity.
Any second now it would collapse, sending Mace down into the river, unless he did something first.
The something he did was to reach deep through the Force until he could feel a structure of broken rock ten meters below him and five meters in from the face. He thought, "Why wait?" and shoved.
The dirt cliff shook, buckled and collapsed.
With a subterranean roar that that buried even the thunder of the eruption and the clamor of the steamcrawler's laboring engine, hundreds of tons of dirt and rock poured into the river of lava, organics bursting into flames that the growing landslide instantly smothered as it built itself into a huge wedge-shaped burm of raw dirt across the gully; as lava slowly bulged and climbed the upstream face, the downward side of the cliff continued to collapse, piling over the cooler lava that hardened beneath it, pushing the hotter more liquid lava into a wave that washed around the steamcrawler's side, welled to the lip of the precipice, then plunged in a rain of fire upon the black jungle far below.
The landslide built into a wave of its own that filled in the gully as it rolled down toward the steamcrawler and the screaming, sobbing children-and on the very crest of that of that wave of dirt and rock, backpedaling furiously to keep from being sucked under by the landslide's roll, came Mace Windu.
Mace rode that crest while the wave sank and flattened and finally lurched to a halt, it's last remnant's trickling into a ridge that joined Mace's position with the corner of the steamcrawler's cabin. Nearly all of his concentration stayed submerged in the Force, spread throughout the slide, using a wide Force-grip to stabalize the rubble while he scrambled down to the steamcrawler's roof."

Wow, upon reading that, I found some "happy mistakes" basically things I think some had overlooked after reading about the whole "ride a hill thing", first, with the hill, he basically gave it a nudge as you saw then used the Force to actually keep control of it as he rode it. Now, If you've never lifted weights before in your life, imagine climbing a small mountain of 45 Lb. plates and then with a couple extra arms, having to keep a hold of so many of them at once to keep yourself stabilized as you come down the "hill". That takes considerable strength and muscular control.
Mace's ability to ride but more importantly keep manipulative control over elements of the hill demonstrated considerable telekinetic strength and mental control.
It's just that the situation which showed this was subtle and the mechanics hard to grasp for some.
Now, after some heart-warming comments and things of that nature, the impressive feats continue:
"The steamcrawler lurched, the hatch going even higher; his sudden movement had been enough to tip it's precarious balance, toppling it toward the precipice.
Mace bared his teeth to the night. With the Force, he seized the streamcrawler and yanked it back into place - but a squeal from above grabbed his attention. In seizing the 'crawler he'd lost his Force-hold on the landslide, and the unstable mound of dirt and rock had begun to shift under the little girl and the two boys, sending them sliding down toward the lava.
Mace calmed his hammering heart and extended one hand; he had to close his eyes for a moment to reassert his control on the slide and stabilize it- but it's shift had left it less solid than before.
He could hold it for the minute or two it would it would take the girl and boys to reach relative safety of the outcrop above, not much more. And now he could feel the 'crawler slowly titling beneath him, leaning higher and higher toward the point of no return."

Heh, for those who haven't read the book yet, I won't spoil what happens to he and the children, does he save them, do they all die terribly? who knows? 😛

Anyway, I had forgotten that the whole thing took place in the middle of an erupting volcano! Lol.
A sandcrawler is basically as big and as heavy as that durasteel girder that Yoda lifted up and moved away from Obi-Wan and Anakin in AotC to save them.
The girder seemed to be near Yoda's limit and when Mace seized the equally heavy and big Sandcrawler, he was able to tier it into place.
He also knew he could hold the cliff and keep it there for a few minutes If needed.
All of that was very impressive and gives us the necessary information to know that Mace is at least close in power If not actually equal to Dooku's in terms of telekinesis.

So, yes, of course the ability to "ride the hill" was impressive and showed his telekinetic ability - it's mentioned alot for a reason.
And the after mentioned ability to hold the multi-ton sandcrawler up and into place, and then the slide itself at the same time also is something not to be forgotten.

Looks like you may need to look farther than Janus for your answer's my friend, like canon. 😉

In terms of the Force Crush scenario, you were absolutely right to point out that a Jedi does learn to resist telekinesis as younglings, truthfully I had forgotten that. That was a smart thing to point out. 😉
However don't forget that at times those defenses can be broken through, such as Yoda pushing Sidious.
I think your right that his 13 years as a Sith Lord would defiantly lend salt to the fact that he could defend against the attack.
Though it's hard to say for sure. I don't think Dooku has ever had anyone use Force-Crush on him before and the array of telekinesis used in the technique itself is complex and subtle, which may make it hard to defend against, that and it is an insta-kill ability which means Mace would only have to simply close his fist to make Dooku die.

So, it's a toss-up.

On another note, that ability Dooku used against Assaj was most interesting.
I didn't know he knew Moricho.
Indeed, If he were to use that attack on Windu, the results are also a toss-up, though I'm sure Windu has better defense than Assaj. 🙂

1) Where is Mace stated to be a master of the Broken Gate style?

A: Mace has been stated in official sources to be a master of hand-to-hand combat, and seeing as it was confirmed he didn't use Teras Kasi, he was also indirectly referred to as using Jedi fighting techniques(also known as Broken Gate) in shatterpoint.

2) Heat up the molecules in his fists? That was never mentioned in Shatterpoint, when he gets his ass handed to him by Kar Vastor.

A: I know, that's why I wrote this afterwards: "(As seen in Clone Wars V1)". Since you might not have been able to figure it out, Clone Wars V1 means "Clone Wars Volume 1". He used an extremely rare Force ability called Biocombustion to speed up the molecules in his hands, heating the surface of his skin up to inject kinetic energy into his opponents, the superbattledroids.

3) And is Dooku just going to stand there and get pounded into the ground? If Mace is unarmed, Dooku eventually tears him apart with Sith lightning; there's absolutely nothing he can do about it.
Either way, Windu wins, I would say all 3, winning the second just barely.

A: If Mace decided to use Broken Gate on Dooku, the Sith Lord wouldn't have a choice in the matter. If he tried to "tear him apart with Sith Lightning" then the lightning would merely hit the area where Windu had been.
Tapping into Vapaad, Mace would become invisible to Dooku in terms of speed, and he would just blast his face into fragments with his fists.

With that, there's this: "Windu went toe-to-toe with Kar Vastor on Haruun Kal, and demonstrated blinding speed by landing six blows to the man's body before he could blink. On Dantooine, having lost his lightsaber, Mace took to tearing super battle droids apart with his bare hands, showing incredible strength and resilience as he crushed armor and tore out circuitry with his fingers. " - Wookieepedia

"In a strict duel? Probably. In an all-out fight? Maybe.

But in a pure Force contest, there's nothing to suggest that Mace could hold his own."

In a strict duel, certainly.

For the all out Force powers, there has been plenty shown to suggest Mace could hold his own.

Been good sparring with you. 😉

From what i have seen, these two are almost perfectly equal. I voted for mace though because he's cooler. 😎

Definitely. I'm still waiting for Faunus to defend his claims. 😄

If he can that is. 😉

Windu 10, Dooku O