Originally posted by truejedi
i'd like to tiredly reassert a couple of things that i've had to reassert over and over and over, because they simply aren't true.First bane did not dominate Kas'im. Kas'im dominated Bane, and then bane killed kas'im with the force. its all in the book, its ridiculous to continue to deny it.
2nd. Obi-wan impresses me a lot more than Kas'im. Obi-wan was one of the top Jedi swordsmen of the Clone Wars era, and defeated the chosen one in one on one combat. Kas'im was a higher level Lackey in a Sith Empire comprised mostly of sith so weak that they were totally under mind control of one Sith Lord that was easily dispatched by Bane. What does kas'im ever do (not what does it say about his skills) but what does he ever DO that makes him the least bit impressive (except for defeating Bane, but if you bring that up, you lose the argument on my first point....)
I agree. Bane only won because of his Force strength.
Kenobi has a good chance here
Anyways, this will be a very close match. I might have to say Obi Wan, because of his mastery of soresu. Unless someone convinces me otherwise...
I think that you severly overestimate the 'power' of Sereso mastery. So Kenobi has mastered it to a great degree..... So what!!! No one else has ever even been seen using it for Sith's sake!!! It simply does not have the aggresion needed to stand up to the powerful Bane.
And I know that your going to say that Kenobi's defence has been described as 'impenatrable' but let me break it to you, so has Bane's. Bane has even mastered Soreso himself and just about all other form's. In his era Bane took down every top end duelist that he came up against and creamed the best one's personally. And kenobi's defence didn't look that impressive when Dooku smacked him one. Kenobi couldn't even vanquish Ventress, who is undoubtably a knat compared to Bane.
And for your information, the Force play's a big factor in combat. It power's your strikes and give's you speed. This was the reason why Bane was able to dominate the technically skilled Kas'im in the first half of their duel.
At the end of the day Bane is Kenobi's superior in every way. Strength, speed, endurence, tactic's, intelligence, force strength, all go to Bane. And what does Kenobi have. Hair.
That's.
It.
Just one thing Exodus, by PoD Bane didn't master Soresu he was trained it and the other forms as well but it is a bit of stretch to say he mastered one form completely (Djem So) let alone others. He was more likely pretty decent in all forms and if he is smart he could try and switch forms during the duel and pretend to favor Form A then switch to Form B, though Kenobi did this in the opening vs Dooku as it said in the ROTS novel.
Originally posted by Elite HunterKenobi's use of it failed miserably, considering it got him put on his ass twenty seconds into the fight, and knocked out cold a short while later.
Just one thing Exodus, by PoD Bane didn't master Soresu he was trained it and the other forms as well but it is a bit of stretch to say he mastered one form completely (Djem So) let alone others. He was more likely pretty decent in all forms and if he is smart he could try and switch forms during the duel and pretend to favor Form A then switch to Form B, though Kenobi did this in the opening vs Dooku as it said in the ROTS novel.
No, both combatants would do best sticking to their chosen forms of combat. The familiarity both have with eachother's styles - especially Obi-Wan, as he's accustomed to sparring with an extraordinarily powerful, physically adept young man - will make this an extremely long, brutal, and close fight.
*is undecided*
Just because Bane's being madly underrated...
Originally posted by truejedi
i'd like to tiredly reassert a couple of things that i've had to reassert over and over and over, because they simply aren't true.First bane did not dominate Kas'im. Kas'im dominated Bane, and then bane killed kas'im with the force. its all in the book, its ridiculous to continue to deny it.
I'd suggest reading through Farfalla's post a bit more carefully; in fact, I'll use some insane copying and passage skills for you:
"Bane absolutely dominated Kas'im on equal footing, and he'd do a lot worse to the far less impressive Obi-Wan."
Which is exactly correct -- PoD, Page 242:
"Kas'im lunged in again, and the room was filled with the hiss and hum of lightsabers striking each other half a dozen times in the space of two heartbeats. Bane would have been carved to ribbons had he tried to react to each move individually. Instead he simply called upon the Force, letting it flow through him and guide his hand. He gave himself over to the dark side completely, without reservation. His weapon became an extension of the Force, and he responded to the Twilek's unstoppable attack with an impenetrable defense.
Then he went on the attack. In the past he had always been afraid to surrender his will to the raw emotions that fueled the dark side. Now he had no such limitations; for the first time he was calling on his full potential.
He drove Kas'im back with furious slashes, forcing his old mentor into a backpedaling retreat across the floor of the chamber. Kas'im flipped back and out through the door into the hall beyond, but Bane was relentless in his pursuit, leaping forward and coming within a centimeter of landing a crippling blow to the Twilek's leg.
His strike was turned aside at the last second, but he quickly followed it up with another series of powerful thrusts and stabs. The Blademaster continued to give ground, pushed inexorably back by the raging storm of Bane's onslaught. Each time he tried to change tactics or switch forms, Bane anticipated, reacted, and seized the advantage.
The outcome was inevitable. Bane was simply too strong in the Force. Only some unexpected maneuver could save Kas'im, but they had fought too many times in the past for him to surprise Bane now. Over the course of his training Bane had seen every possible sequence, series, move, and trick with the double-bladed lightsaber, and he knew how to counter and nullify them all.
The Blademaster became desperate. Leaping, spinning, ducking, rolling: he was wild and reckless in his retreat, seeking now only to escape with his life. But he didn't know the Temple like Bane did. Bane kept the routes to the outside cut off, slowly herding his opponent into a dead-end hallway.
Recognizing what was happening, Kas'im blew open the heavy door of a side room with the Force and dived inside. Bane knew there was no other exit, and he paused at the threshold of the room to savor his victory.
The Twi'lek stood in the center of the empty chamber, panting heavily, stooped ever so slightly, his head bowed. He looked up when Bane stepped through the doorway. But when his gaze met Bane's, there was no hint of defeat in his eyes.
"You should have finished me when you had the chance," he said."
As can be seen, Bane was capable of meeting Kas'im's "unstoppable attack with an impenetrable defense," going on the attack and pushing him "inexorably back," "coming within a centimeter of landing a crippling blow to the TwiLek's leg," anticipating and countering every one of Kas'im's attempts to turn the tide of the battle, and in general just being completely dominant to the point where "the outcome was inevitable," and Kas'im began to lose the will to continue, "seeking now only to escape with his life," flat out giving up right at the end and trying to flee, where Bane stops to savour his victory, and both agree that Bane would have been able to finish him off there and then.
So you can babble on all you want, but the fact remains that on equal footing, where neither combatant possessed any kind of advantage over the other, Bane was completely dominant, and very capable of quite easily defeating the Twilek.
Kas'im was only capable of dominating Bane when using an unfamiliar form against him, or rather, a completely alien weapon against him, which he had mastered all seven forms with to extremely high degrees, where he was described to have millions of combinations at his command, all of which were completely unfamiliar to Bane.
But that's entirely irrelevant, as Bane's poor performance against Kas'im is testament to his ability in relation to Kas'im, and he alone (as Kas'im is the only lightsaber user to ever master all seven forms for the Jar'kai style of lightsaber combat), and speaks more for how great a disadvantage Bane was up against, rather than any lack of skill on his part.
What is relevant, when dealing with an opponent who would possess no such advantage over Bane, is his relative level of ability, which is why only the first part of Bane's duel with Kas'im is relevant in this scenario, as it's the only part of their duel where neither possessed any unfair advantage over the other, and the very merits that netted Bane his win against the Twilek would be 100% applicable in a fight against Obi-Wan.
2nd. Obi-wan impresses me a lot more than Kas'im.Obi-wan was one of the top Jedi swordsmen of the Clone Wars era,
That's great; Kas'im was declared the greatest swordsman of his age, where the Jedi and Sith had been at war with each other for a millennium, where warfare between the two groups were described as "constant," and where Jedi and Sith were more battle hardened, combat orientated, and focused on Jedi versus Sith combat than those of any other era. The omniscient narrator also states that he might have been the greatest swordsman there had ever been.
A little more impressive than being one of the best swordsman of a far less militaristic era, I'd estimate
and defeated the chosen one in one on one combat.
[Ivalice]Quamtify and substamfiate![/Ivalice]
Until you can successfully gauge exactly how much potential Anakin had realised by RotS (which is all such a title would support anyway), this constitutes as irrelevant misdirection.
Kas'im was a higher level Lackey in a Sith Empire comprised mostly of sith so weak that they were totally under mind control of one Sith Lord that was easily dispatched by Bane.
Let's not appeal to ridicule now. Him being a "lacky," or to use a more fitting term, "lightsaber instructor," doesn't speak against his ability, rather, it does the opposite; he was given such a position because he was simply the greatest technical swordsman the Sith had, and "higher up" doesn't quite cut it. Quordis was "higher up." Kopekz was "higher up." Kas'im was - with the exception of Bane - the most powerful Sith of the entire order.
As for them being under Kaan's control, until you can substantiate exactly how that makes them weak, you're reaching a false conclusion. At the end of the day, Kaan was exceptionally powerful; even Bane recognised that, and subtle persuasions through the Force was his talent. That Bane was capable of resisting his powers means little given how powerful Bane actually was - a planetary level powerhouse in fact.
As I said, being the most militaristic Order of Sith there's ever been would indicate that as a collective group, they were extremely powerful.
What does kas'im ever do (not what does it say about his skills) but what does he ever DO that makes him the least bit impressive (except for defeating Bane, but if you bring that up, you lose the argument on my first point....)
Technical prowess with the lightsaber: Kas'im spent years mastering all seven forms, and decades perfecting them. Obi-Wan - by his own admission - was only any good with one form. Kas'im smashes him in this category.
Physical Conditioning: Kas'im was described as being extremely physically conditioned, and heavily muscled. Obi-Wan, based on visible evidence, doesn't compare. Even without that, Kas'im's daily and extensive physical activity would suggest that he was easily beyond Obi-Wan in this category, so again, advantage Kas'im.
Force ability: Kas'im was capable of defending against an attack that would have been able to completely decimate his undefended body in an instant. Being a darksider, using his powers defensively likely isn't his forte, making the feat even more impressive. Obi-Wan, on the other hand, is forced to groan out loud when simply pushing a non force sensitive a few dozen feet into the air. Again, advantage Kas'im.
So really, to put it simply, Kas'im beats Obi-wan in all relevant categories, by leagues in one of them (technique), and Bane, on equal footing with the Twilek, due to merits that would be perfectly applicable against obi-wan, absolutely outclassed him, and as I've established, he'd logically do far worse to Obi-Wan.
Originally posted by Noobrais
Just because Bane's being madly underrated...I'd suggest reading through Farfalla's post a bit more carefully; in fact, I'll use some insane copying and passage skills for you:
"Bane absolutely dominated Kas'im on equal footing, and he'd do a lot worse to the far less impressive Obi-Wan."
Which is exactly correct -- PoD, Page 242:
"Kas'im lunged in again, and the room was filled with the hiss and hum of lightsabers striking each other half a dozen times in the space of two heartbeats. Bane would have been carved to ribbons had he tried to react to each move individually. Instead he simply called upon the Force, letting it flow through him and guide his hand. He gave himself over to the dark side completely, without reservation. His weapon became an extension of the Force, and he responded to the Twilek's unstoppable attack with an impenetrable defense.
Then he went on the attack. In the past he had always been afraid to surrender his will to the raw emotions that fueled the dark side. Now he had no such limitations; for the first time he was calling on his full potential.
He drove Kas'im back with furious slashes, forcing his old mentor into a backpedaling retreat across the floor of the chamber. Kas'im flipped back and out through the door into the hall beyond, but Bane was relentless in his pursuit, leaping forward and coming within a centimeter of landing a crippling blow to the Twilek's leg.
His strike was turned aside at the last second, but he quickly followed it up with another series of powerful thrusts and stabs. The Blademaster continued to give ground, pushed inexorably back by the raging storm of Bane's onslaught. Each time he tried to change tactics or switch forms, Bane anticipated, reacted, and seized the advantage.
The outcome was inevitable. Bane was simply too strong in the Force. Only some unexpected maneuver could save Kas'im, but they had fought too many times in the past for him to surprise Bane now. Over the course of his training Bane had seen every possible sequence, series, move, and trick with the double-bladed lightsaber, and he knew how to counter and nullify them all.
The Blademaster became desperate. Leaping, spinning, ducking, rolling: he was wild and reckless in his retreat, seeking now only to escape with his life. But he didn't know the Temple like Bane did. Bane kept the routes to the outside cut off, slowly herding his opponent into a dead-end hallway.
Recognizing what was happening, Kas'im blew open the heavy door of a side room with the Force and dived inside. Bane knew there was no other exit, and he paused at the threshold of the room to savor his victory.
The Twi'lek stood in the center of the empty chamber, panting heavily, stooped ever so slightly, his head bowed. He looked up when Bane stepped through the doorway. But when his gaze met Bane's, there was no hint of defeat in his eyes.
"You should have finished me when you had the chance," he said."
As can be seen, Bane was capable of meeting Kas'im's "unstoppable attack with an impenetrable defense," going on the attack and pushing him "inexorably back," "coming within a centimeter of landing a crippling blow to the TwiLek's leg," anticipating and countering every one of Kas'im's attempts to turn the tide of the battle, and in general just being completely dominant to the point where "the outcome was inevitable," and Kas'im began to lose the will to continue, "seeking now only to escape with his life," flat out giving up right at the end and trying to flee, where Bane stops to savour his victory, and both agree that Bane would have been able to finish him off there and then.
So you can babble on all you want, but the fact remains that on equal footing, where neither combatant possessed any kind of advantage over the other, Bane was completely dominant, and very capable of quite easily defeating the Twilek.
Kas'im was only capable of dominating Bane when using an unfamiliar form against him, or rather, a completely alien weapon against him, which he had mastered all seven forms with to extremely high degrees, where he was described to have millions of combinations at his command, all of which were completely unfamiliar to Bane.
But that's entirely irrelevant, as Bane's poor performance against Kas'im is testament to his ability in relation to Kas'im, and he alone (as Kas'im is the only lightsaber user to ever master all seven forms for the Jar'kai style of lightsaber combat), and speaks more for how great a disadvantage Bane was up against, rather than any lack of skill on his part.
What is relevant, when dealing with an opponent who would possess no such advantage over Bane, is his relative level of ability, which is why only the first part of Bane's duel with Kas'im is relevant in this scenario, as it's the only part of their duel where neither possessed any unfair advantage over the other, and the very merits that netted Bane his win against the Twilek would be 100% applicable in a fight against Obi-Wan.
That's great; Kas'im was declared the greatest swordsman of his age, where the Jedi and Sith had been at war with each other for a millennium, where warfare between the two groups were described as "constant," and where Jedi and Sith were more battle hardened, combat orientated, and focused on Jedi versus Sith combat than those of any other era. The omniscient narrator also states that he might have been the greatest swordsman there had ever been.
A little more impressive than being one of the best swordsman of a far less militaristic era, I'd estimate
[Ivalice]Quamtify and substamfiate![/Ivalice]
Until you can successfully gauge exactly how much potential Anakin had realised by RotS (which is all such a title would support anyway), this constitutes as irrelevant misdirection.
Let's not appeal to ridicule now. Him being a "lacky," or to use a more fitting term, "lightsaber instructor," doesn't speak against his ability, rather, it does the opposite; he was given such a position because he was simply the greatest technical swordsman the Sith had, and "higher up" doesn't quite cut it. Quordis was "higher up." Kopekz was "higher up." Kas'im was - with the exception of Bane - the most powerful Sith of the entire order.
As for them being under Kaan's control, until you can substantiate exactly how that makes them weak, you're reaching a false conclusion. At the end of the day, Kaan was exceptionally powerful; even Bane recognised that, and subtle persuasions through the Force was his talent. That Bane was capable of resisting his powers means little given how powerful Bane actually was - a planetary level powerhouse in fact.
As I said, being the most militaristic Order of Sith there's ever been would indicate that as a collective group, they were extremely powerful.
Technical prowess with the lightsaber: Kas'im spent years mastering all seven forms, and decades perfecting them. Obi-Wan - by his own admission - was only any good with one form. Kas'im smashes him in this category.
Physical Conditioning: Kas'im was described as being extremely physically conditioned, and heavily muscled. Obi-Wan, based on visible evidence, doesn't compare. Even without that, Kas'im's daily and extensive physical activity would suggest that he was easily beyond Obi-Wan in this category, so again, advantage Kas'im.
Force ability: Kas'im was capable of defending against an attack that would have been able to completely decimate his undefended body in an instant. Being a darksider, using his powers defensively likely isn't his forte, making the feat even more impressive. Obi-Wan, on the other hand, is forced to groan out loud when simply pushing a non force sensitive a few dozen feet into the air. Again, advantage Kas'im.
So really, to put it simply, Kas'im beats Obi-wan in all relevant categories, by leagues in one of them (technique), and Bane, on equal footing with the Twilek, due to merits that would be perfectly applicable against obi-wan, absolutely outclassed him, and as I've established, he'd logically do far worse to Obi-Wan. [/B]
wait a minute... all this time, are you saying that Kas'im having a double bladed light saber is an unfair advantage? r u kidding me? if that's what you are saying, then i'm done replying to your posts, ever, because they are based on rubbage.
You didn't have to quote the entire passage to point out one supposed flaw...
And no, that's not what Nebaris is saying at all. Truth is, Bane knew every possible maneuver that Kas'im could pull off with either a single- or double-bladed lightsaber. Which is a staggering achievement, considering said Twi'Lek had mastered all seven major forms of lightsaber combat and then spent decades honing his skills. The only reason Kas'im managed to get the upper hand on Bane was because he had instant access to a form of combat that was completely alien to Bane; the use of two lightsabers. Obi-Wan's not going to be pulling a second lightsaber out of his ass, and even he did he wouldn't be able to use it as masterfully as Kas'im.
Originally posted by Faunus
Kenobi's use of it failed miserably, considering it got him put on his ass twenty seconds into the fight, and knocked out cold a short while later.
Indeed. Bane was a better duelist than Kas'Im. As said before, Kas'Im only bested him in lightsaber combat due to him using a completely alien saber style to him. An advantage, which Kenobi does not have. The fight clearly proves that Bane>Kas'Im.
And even if Kenobi would get two lightsabers, firstly: "Obi-Wan's not going to be pulling a second lightsaber out of his ass, and even he did he wouldn't be able to use it as masterfully as Kas'im."
And secondly, Bane has sure as hell learned to counter two lightsabers after that Kas'Im fight.