Originally posted by Lt. Valerian
Bane was familiar with most of Ka'sim's techniques. Bane did have the edge once he started attacking, but Kas'im realized he would be risking his life if he didn't use his secret technique, which gave him a clear advantage over his opponent, and which Bane couldn't do absolutely anything against.On the contrary. He unleashed his full potential to have enough skill to finish with the life of his former mentor,
"He drove Kas'im back with furious slashes, forcing his old mentor into a backpedaling retreat across the floor of the chamber.
Each time he tried to change tactics or switch forms, Bane anticipated, reacted, and seized advantage."
Bane was not toying with him, he was aiming for the kill. He was using everything he had.
As did Bane. And him using the Force to be able to survive this encounter is proof for this. Bane knew he had no other choice but to call on the power of the Force. That was the only way in which he could emerge victorious. If the fight would have continued, Bane would have eventually died on the hands of the Blademaster.
Umm.. yes. You just said it yourself. Kas'Im needed his secret technique to beat Bane. So Bane was the better swordsman in equal ground. The advantage is kind of clear since Kas was the swordsmaster of the academy Bane studied in, and as that was the only place for him to learn in, he couldn't have known about using two lightsabers.
Originally posted by tauros
Umm.. yes. You just said it yourself. Kas'Im needed his secret technique to beat Bane. So Bane was the better swordsman in equal ground. The advantage is kind of clear since Kas was the swordsmaster of the academy Bane studied in, and as that was the only place for him to learn in, he couldn't have known about using two lightsabers.
Originally posted by truejedi
no... he knew a technique that bane didn't how to counter, that clearly makes kasi'm the better swordsman.
There is no such thing as a black and white "better" swordsman. It all depends on who's being included in the comparison. In relation to each other, sure, Kas'im is the better swordsman, and the same's the case in respect to anyone else who's completely unfamiliar with the style of Jar'Kai. However, in relation to someone who's familiar with both of their forms, Bane would be the better swordsman, as can be seen in the first part of his fight with Kas'im where he dominated. Claiming that someone's simply better in such an art without providing context is the exact same style of illogic as A>B>C arguments.
Yoda didn't get to practice against sidious first,
Your comparison is as absurd as they come. Kas'im was a high end master of all seven forms for the dual sabers, where he was described as having literally millions of combinations at his command, and Bane was completely unfamiliar with every single one.
Sidious was a practitioner of Ataru, Yoda's own form, and he wielded the form in a completely orthodox manner. There would be nothing about him that Yoda wouldn't be familiar with, and prepared against, so the fact that he hadn't ever practised with him is a moot point.
i doubt luke knew how to counter vader's form on bespin,
It's quite possible, given how Yoda had been training him for a confrontation with Vader.
but that doesn't make luke better than vader on "equal footing"
Again, another absurd comparison. We say that Bane was better than Kas'im on equal footing because we actually get to see them fight on equal footing, and Kas'im quite simply got outclassed.
Your analogy would only be valid if somebody had said that Bane was the better of the two on equal footing simply because of an absence of evidence that suggests otherwise.
these are fights to the death. There is no such thing as equal footing. you use every advantage you can gain.
The point is, in the case of Bane and Kas'im, if the advantage (or disadvantage) in question wouldn't apply in the discussed scenario, then you simply discount it, as it's irrelevant. For instance, in the Bane vs. Obi-Wan thread, you brought up the fact that Kas'im was able to dominate Bane whilst wielding two lightsabers. Absolutely true, but an advantage Obi-Wan wouldn't possess, making that segment of the fight meaningless to bring up, and the same is pretty much the case with anybody except Kas'im, as nobody has been shown to have reached his level of prowess with the Jar'Kai as of yet, and it's likely nobody ever will be.
Originally posted by ExclamationMark
There is no such thing as a black and white "better" swordsman. It all depends on who's being included in the comparison. In relation to each other, sure, Kas'im is the better swordsman, and the same's the case in respect to anyone else who's completely unfamiliar with the style of Jar'Kai. However, in relation to someone who's familiar with both of their forms, Bane would be the better swordsman, as can be seen in the first part of his fight with Kas'im where he dominated. Claiming that someone's simply better in such an art without providing context is the exact same style of illogic as A>B>C arguments.Your comparison is as absurd as they come. Kas'im was a high end master of all seven forms for the dual sabers, where he was described as having literally millions of combinations at his command, and Bane was completely unfamiliar with every single one.
Sidious was a practitioner of Ataru, Yoda's own form, and he wielded the form in a completely orthodox manner. There would be nothing about him that Yoda wouldn't be familiar with, and prepared against, so the fact that he hadn't ever practised with him is a moot point.
It's quite possible, given how Yoda had been training him for a confrontation with Vader.
Again, another absurd comparison. We say that Bane was better than Kas'im on equal footing because we actually get to see them fight on equal footing, and Kas'im quite simply got outclassed.
Your analogy would only be valid if somebody had said that Bane was the better of the two on equal footing simply because of an absence of evidence that suggests otherwise.
The point is, in the case of Bane and Kas'im, if the advantage (or disadvantage) in question wouldn't apply in the discussed scenario, then you simply discount it, as it's irrelevant. For instance, in the Bane vs. Obi-Wan thread, you brought up the fact that Kas'im was able to dominate Bane whilst wielding two lightsabers. Absolutely true, but an advantage Obi-Wan wouldn't possess, making that segment of the fight meaningless to bring up, and the same is pretty much the case with anybody except Kas'im, as nobody has been shown to have reached his level of prowess with the Jar'Kai as of yet, and it's likely nobody ever will be.
Haha what a ******. Looks like Rex is on top of his game now.
Originally posted by truejedi
no... he knew a technique that bane didn't how to counter, that clearly makes kasi'm the better swordsman. Yoda didn't get to practice against sidious first, i doubt luke knew how to counter vader's form on bespin, but that doesn't make luke better than vader on "equal footing" these are fights to the death. There is no such thing as equal footing. you use every advantage you can gain.
Yes he knew a technique that Bane didn't know. Because Kas'Im was Bane's teacher, and he decided not to teach it to him. A technique does not make one a better swordman. If Bane was familiar with his technique, Kas'Im would have been beaten, which shows that Bane was the better of the two even though he got beaten in lightsaber combat that time. The rest of your post - what is your point? "There is no equal footing"? And..?
You missed his point completely. Kas'im was the better swordsman, there's nothing to it.
Let me give you an example: Maul fights Kenobi and Qui-Gon, and both, the pair, and Maul, know absolutely nothing about each other's forms and techniques. The difference here is, Maul has a double-bladed saber, which gives him a slight advantage on one-on-one combat. The Jedi had never fought against something like this before, but the fight was no-where near short. Why? Because even though Qui-Gon and Kenobi were unfamiliar with his technique, they were fine swordsmen, at least very close to Maul's level, and, therefore, were able to compete with him, even individually. On the other hand, Bane gets destroyed when Kas'im switched to his unknown technique.
Bane knows almost everything about his opponent's techniques, which is the only reason why he had the upper hand in the beginning of the duel. Place a Bane who doesn't know shit about Kas'im's forms and techniques against the Blademaster, and he dies painfully.
Let me give you an example: Maul fights Kenobi and Qui-Gon, and both, the pair, and Maul, know absolutely nothing about each other's forms and techniques. The difference here is, Maul has a double-bladed saber, which gives him a slight advantage on one-on-one combat. The Jedi had never fought against something like this before, but the fight was no-where near short. Why? Because even though Qui-Gon and Kenobi were unfamiliar with his technique, they were fine swordsmen, at least very close to Maul's level, and, therefore, were able to compete with him, even individually.
What the hell are you talking about. Maul used Juyo, which is pretty much the same as what Mace used and Qui-gon dueled with him plenty. He also used Ataru in which both are proficient. Oh, and do you really expect me to believe that they've never fought a double saber? Out of hundreds of thousands of jedi do you really think that no one uses one? Either way their are people how use double vibro blades and jedi need to train against all foes. Your post was lame.
Originally posted by tauros
No, Valerian. Bane was the better swordsman."Place a Bane who doesn't know shit about Kas'im's forms and techniques against the Blademaster, and he dies painfully."
Place Kas'im who doesn't know shit about Bane's forms and techniques against Bane, and he (Kas'im) dies painfully.
I'm gonna copy-paste this from the Bane-Kas'im thread, because i took my argument there, but you obviously didn't so: i responded to you earlier:
okay: tauros:
If you are saying that Bane had more POTENTIAL to be a better swordsman, than i agree completely. However, in the case of their fight on... wherever it was. been awhile since i played KOTOR, i don't remember the planet name... Kas'im was superior because he knew more.
it means bane could not beat kas'im, EVER in that fight, with a saber, if they fight it 800 times. That's because bane just didn't know enough.
You might say that TPM anakin was a better swordsmen than ROTS dooku, BECAUSE given the same opportunity to learn all of the count's forms, and practice as much as he wanted (say oh, an odd 12 to 14 years or so..) he could beat the count. It would hardly be even ground if the TPM Anakin had to fight ROTS dooku, BUT Dooku would be superior in that fight. Because he knows more. THAT is part of experience, and is COMPLETELY ADMISSABLE in any vs debate.
So: POD Bane was not the equal of Kas'im at the time of POD. He would have been, yes, had he known how to counter that form, but if he was truly that much better than Kas'im, he should have been able to continue to use his own form against Kas'im in a way that would force Kas'im to counter BANE, as opposed to the other way around. If Bane had managed to stay on the offensive, then Kas'im would have not been able to use his form to its fullest advantage. I don't understand what the debate is here. Kas'im could counter ANYTHING bane threw at him, and had an extra form that Bane couldnt' counter. That gives Kas'im an advantage. We don't see Bane studying that form for the rest of POD, so it means that POD bane can't beat Kas'im. Yes, the potential was there, but the skill wasn't. Why is that being met with so much resistance? it seems obvious. We wouldn't call Dooku's years of experience an unfair advantage over anakin from my example earlier, we would simply say Dooku was better at that time. Why would you treat the Bane, Kas'im fight any differently?
Originally posted by tauros
Bane could also block everything that Kas'im threw at him.
Didn't you read the book? Or did you just missed the part were Kas'im destroyed Bane with his dual sabers?
Place Kas'im who doesn't know shit about Bane's forms and techniques against Bane, and he (Kas'im) dies painfully
Yeah, that's exactly why Bane was overwhelmed when Kas'im changed his lightsaber form and technique.
Originally posted by Darth Exodus
What the hell are you talking about. Maul used Juyo, which is pretty much the same as what Mace used and Qui-gon dueled with him plenty.
Yes, my mistake on that one. But my point still stands: One of the reasons why Maul defeated Qui-Gon was because he wielded a more deadly, proficient weapon, and even though Qui-Gon knew his form, he couldn't figure out how to counter the double-bladed weapon's attacks, which is almost the case with Bane & Kas'im...
Oh, and do you really expect me to believe that they've never fought a double saber? Out of hundreds of thousands of jedi do you really think that no one uses one?
Yes, I do, because in case you didn't watch AOTC, not a single out of at least a hundred Jedi was wielding a bloody double-bladed saber nor dual ones. Or did you see someone? Oh. Of course you didn't.
Either way their are people how use double vibro blades and jedi need to train against all foes. Your post was lame.
Once again, you are wrong. A Vibrolade has absolutely nothing to do with a lightsaber. The weapons' techniques, handling, and prowess are completely different from one another.
And please, READ. I have already created a thread regarding the Bane vs. Kas'im topic.
Originally posted by Lt. Valerian
Didn't you read the book? Or did you just missed the part were Kas'im destroyed Bane with his dual sabers?
I fail to see how, considering the fact that Bane was still able to control the flow of the battle well enough to be able to lead the battle to the outside of the temple. It's pretty clear that he still had some sense of control over the battle, and as Taurus mentioned (and he was absolutely correct, btw), Kas'im still never managed to land a hit against Bane.
Yeah, that's exactly why Bane was overwhelmed when Kas'im changed his lightsaber form and technique.Yes, my mistake on that one. But my point still stands: One of the reasons why Maul defeated Qui-Gon was because he wielded a more deadly, proficient weapon, and even though Qui-Gon knew his form, he couldn't figure out how to counter the double-bladed weapon's attacks, which is almost the case with Bane & Kas'im...
While what you're saying is likely correct, how can you claim it with absolute certainty? It wasn't unheard of for Jedi of the time to wield double bladed lightsabers; an entire class of Jedi wielded them: the Jedi Brutes, as shown in the RotS Video game (argue about the game's canonicity all you want, the comic Purge fully backs it up on the matter, as does Leland Chee).
And while you do get cases throughout the mythos where one combatant wields an unfamiliar style of combat over the other, there's no case that's quite the same as with Bane and Kas'im. Kas'im had mastered all seven forms of the lightsaber for his style of weapon, and spent even more time perfecting them. It was stated that he had millions of different moves and combinations at his command, and that every single one was completely unfamiliar to Bane.
Yes, I do, because in case you didn't watch AOTC, not a single out of at least a hundred Jedi was wielding a bloody double-bladed saber nor dual ones. Or did you see someone? Oh. Of course you didn't.
Wow, hasty generalisation, much? As explained above, you're wrong.