TPM Maul vs ROTS Kenobi

Originally posted by Man of Christ
this isnt xyz because grevous never dueled maul, its just a logical answer.

Youa re saying that just because Kenobi beat Grievous with "ease" than he can do the same with Maul which is essentially the basic principles of an XYZ argument.

1) who gives a crap about maul defeating boondara, that has nothing to do with MASTER kenobi who wasnt around back then.

2) the visual guide says he is the deadliest sith APPRENTICE, does that mean he can give MASTER kenobi a hard time? no

3) so what maul could take on 2 jedi at once, kenobi beat grevous easily and grevous beat like 4 or 5 jedi at once during Cw

4) kenobi's reflexes are too good for him to have trouble with maul.he made short work of mr 20 strokes per second grevous. does maul move nearly as fast? no

Darth Maul shadow hunter:

"Maul glanced at the doorway. A tall human female in shell spider silk armor stood there, aiming a pair of blasters at him.

Maul realized that this was the same being he had sensed following him earlier. His lips twitched in annoyance. He tried a quick mental probe, but the bounty hunter-for surely that was what she was-was too sharp, her attention too focused, to fall for mind tricks.

Maul considered his options. He would never reach his lightsaber fast enough, even as quick as he was. He might be able to dodge a single blast, maybe even two, but hemmed in as he was in this small cubicle against a woman who could likely put a dozen bolts into the air from two semiautomatic blasters in half a second, he would have to have a distraction.

Near his feet lay the Trandoshan's blaster. It would serve nicely.

Using his control of the Force, Darth Maul gripped the weapon in a dark tentacle of energy and hurled it at the bounty hunter's face, hard.
The woman was fast. She dodged the blaster, firing a bolt at it. She missed and recovered, but the distraction had served its purpose. Before the weapon had bounced off the wall and landed on the floor, Maul had the lightsaber in his grasp. He thumbed on both blades as the next blaster bolt and half a dozen more came his way in rapid succession. The Sith apprentice's hands were a blur as he let the dark side take him over completely, giving in to its power and allowing it to control and manipulate him.

Blaster bolts struck the lightsaber's spinning blades and were deflected into the walls, the ceiling, the floor. No time to aim, though a bolt or two did hit the bounty hunter without apparent effect. Her armor was apparently state-of-the-art.

The bounty hunter dropped her useless blasters and reached for one wrist, where she wore a rocket launcher. The fool! Maul thought grimly. If a rocket exploded in here, it would kill them both!

There was no time to try to stop her. Maul slipped along the lines of the Force, moving at moving at unnatural speed as he spun toward the nearest wall, a cheap plastic panel, twirling the lightsaber in a cutting pattern. The plastic shredded easily before the blades' superhot plasmatic edges, and Maul ran through the wall, leapt over a chair in the next room-which, fortunately for its tenants, was deserted at the moment-and stabbed downward with one blade of his lightsaber, shearing a ragged oval in the floor. He dropped through the ceiling of the cubicle below just as the rocket struck the wall of the Neimoidian's room and exploded

The idea that Maul will get wtfpwnd is clearly flawed. He goes down in a duel about the full length of TPM duel only Maul and Kenobi's position/leverage can very well be revesered from the tpm duel.

Originally posted by Elite Hunter
Youa re saying that just because Kenobi beat Grievous with "ease" than he can do the same with Maul which is essentially the basic principles of an XYZ argument.

You truly are ignorant. Boondara had better lightsaber skills at the time of his death than anyone else in the jedi order. And Maul made him realize that Anonn couldn't win. To the intelligent that speaks highly of Maul's lightsaber prowess.

lol, Dooku was an APPRENTICE and held the same rank of Maul and he knocked out Kenobi, Darth Vader was an APPRENTICE yet hew could at the very least give kenobi a hard battle. So your pitiful attempt to discount the quote just because of Kenobi's higher rank fail s miserably. (what a shock there)

The five jedi he fought in the CW were already in battle and were thus not at 100%. And once again Obiwan was specifically chosen to face Grievous due to his style's advantage that it gives him over the overly aggressive Grievous. And Quigon still was "one of the most able duelist in the order" even as of TPM and Obiwan as not your average jedi and did I mentioned that Maul was injured at the time of the duel?

Darth Maul shadow hunter:

The idea that Maul will get wtfpwnd is clearly flawed. He goes down in a duel about the full length of TPM duel only Maul and Kenobi's position/leverage can very well be revesered from the tpm duel.

now now no need to bash, i never called you ignorant i expect the same respect from you.
so lets continue to be civilized shall we.

1) you speak of boondara who was top AT HIS TIME and MASTER kenobi wasnt around back then so you cant say he was better than MASTER kenobi

2) you excerpt doesnt prove that he MOVED HIS LIGHTSABER at 20 strokes per second it just says he moved at unnatural speed.

3) no need for all this hoopla its simple math and logic. master kenobi had no trouble with the swift grevous and so maul who is much slower would be even easier. grevous had 4 blades maul had only 2 with a limited dexterity because the blades are connected making him even weaker against kenobi. he gets pwnd. next thread please, and not one for people who over rate maul

Originally posted by Man of Christ
1) you speak of boondara who was top AT HIS TIME and MASTER kenobi wasnt around back then so you cant say he was better than MASTER kenobi

) you excerpt doesnt prove that he MOVED HIS LIGHTSABER at 20 strokes per second it just says he moved at unnatural speed.

3) no need for all this hoopla its simple math and logic. master kenobi had no trouble with the swift grevous and so maul who is much slower would be even easier. grevous had 4 blades maul had only 2 with a limited dexterity because the blades are connected making him even weaker against kenobi. he gets pwnd. next thread please, and not one for people who over rate maul

EDIT: And to further add to my Anoon point,w e know as Cin Drallig states that Yoda very rarely gives any lightsaber demonsration I see no reason why to think his skills shortly prior to TPM were anything less than what we see in the AOTC vs dooku.

Originally posted by Elite Hunter
Ah but one Mace Windu and a younger Yoda(note that some people think in your anoon thread that his skills are still there with ROTS Yoda) was around at this not to mention all the top jedi we see in the clone wars and then some who died before hand beating the best of tens of thousands is certainly impressive.

Except Kenobi didn't really have to move his lightsaber to much since the angles of GG initial attack of the two spinning blades were the same. And I don't have to prove that Maul's reflexes were better than Obiwan's or necessarily equal to Obiwan's. As the novel says Maul make his hands move like a blir and unnatural speed, as the rest of the passage shows among others, Maul is clearly no slouch, further supporting my claim that he doesn't lose this battle easily.

See above for Maul's skill and the only "swift" maneuver GG was the spinning blades technique. He didn't move no where near the speed we see him deliver in CW Cartoons or LOE. Funny how 90% of the threads that i have debated a point for Maul has vs you for underrating Maul, which I have won all them.

1) in my anoon vs rots yoda thread thier opinions are not neccesarily cannon, yoda was younger and mace hadnt mastered vaapad yet, and even the anoon durring the time of PADAWAN kenobi had nothing to do with MASTER kenobi. besides that whole "second to none" rating goes out the window if yoda was the most powerful force darkness ever knew.

2) so, kenobi's reflexes were so good that a 4 BLADED duelest got outmanuevederd by him in 3 seconds. what can a 2 BLADED duelist whose blades are attached with a dexterity handicap do to match that? nothing

3) the title of this thread specifies that maul is in his tpm state so the broken ankles that he has to duel rots kenobi with will add to his recieving of pwnage

4) i will be honest, i hate maul's guts and think he is the worst idea for a sith ever and i was glad when kenobi KILLED him. but i dont underrate him its just that rots kenobi is so gooooooooood at this point that maul cant lift a finger to him.

5) dont let your ego consume you young padawan

Originally posted by Man of Christ
1) in my anoon vs rots yoda thread thier opinions are not neccesarily cannon, yoda was younger and mace hadnt mastered vaapad yet, and even the anoon durring the time of PADAWAN kenobi had nothing to do with MASTER kenobi. ew.

besides that whole "second to none" rating goes out the window if yoda was the most powerful force darkness ever knew.

WRONG, the quote said he was seconds to none lightsaber skill,no mention of his force skill (though it was fairly impressive but that is neither here nor there) Yoda was the most powerful overall. And as I said in a thread months ago the degree to which Anoon was better than Yoda was never specified.

2) so, kenobi's reflexes were so good that a 4 BLADED duelest got outmanuevederd by him in 3 seconds. what can a 2 BLADED duelist whose blades are attached with a dexterity handicap do to match that? nothing

) the title of this thread specifies that maul is in his tpm state so the broken ankles that he has to duel rots kenobi with will add to his recieving of pwnage

4) i will be honest, i hate maul's guts and think he is the worst idea for a sith ever and i was glad when kenobi KILLED him. but i dont underrate him its just that rots kenobi is so gooooooooood at this point that maul cant lift a finger to him.

5) dont let your ego consume you young padawan

And to quote myself

EDIT: And to further add to my Anoon point,we know as Cin Drallig states that Yoda very rarely gives any lightsaber demonstration I see no reason why to think his skills shortly prior to TPM were anything less than what we see in the AOTC vs dooku.

how did maul break his ankles?

Originally posted by truejedi
how did maul break his ankles?

I think it was his knee but here is the piece in the episode one jouranl:darth maul

Impossible as it may seem, I have made an error. Out of impatience or a residue of exhaustion, who can say.

The Sand People advance on me angrily. In their breath masks and goggles they are protected from the sand that now stings my eyes and clogs my mouth.

The howling intensifies. The Raiders shake their gaderffii and begin to surround me. There are just too many of them. I can take out four or five in the flicker of an eyelash, but that will just infuriate the rest.

Frustration boils inside me. These interruptions deflect me from my mission.

I never run away from a battle. But this one will tax me, and my strength is needed for the Jedi. If my Master hears I have been wounded, he will be furious.

All of these calculations race through my mind, faster than the Tusken Raiders are moving. One fierce Raider is the first to come at me, racing forward with his stick held high. It is easy for me to fake a dodge to the left, then make a half turn and kick him from behind as he staggers, surprised that there is now empty air where I had been standing.

He falls hard, spraying sand. This gratifies me, but it does not please his companions.

The Tusken Raiders have maneuvered me closer to the sheer face of the canyon wall. They think they have trapped me. They plan to take their time slicing me to ribbons, enjoying what they think is my fear.

At that moment, my wrist comlink sends off an alert signal. One of the probe droids has found something. The noise splits the eerie silence in the canyon. Even the Tusken Raiders pause.

The Jedi have been located. I must get back to the Infiltrator.

I turn my back to them, but only for an instant. I run straight for the canyon wall. I don't have much distance to cover, so I have to run fast. I feel the tearing wound in my left thigh, but I push it aside. Pain is another annoyance. It will not slow me down.

I run up the sheer wall, calling up the dark side to escape my enemies. My contempt and my anger at the Tusken Raiders help me. I am able to scale the wall despite the pain. With a final burst of strength that sends red agony through my leg, I flip over backward, fly over the surprised upturned faces of the Raiders, and land behind them.

They are so startled they don't react. That gives me a head start. I take off through the canyon, heading back to my ship. My wound troubles me, but now my annoyance is toward myself for feeling it. I force myself to run with my usual strength and speed.

They are no match for me. They chase me, shaking their gaderffii sticks, but they cannot catch me. I am a streak of darkness, faster than light.

I make it back to the ship. I see out the windshield that the Tusken Raiders stand a hundred meters away. They talk among themselves, waving their arms. But I know they'll give up, and they do. They trudge off, looking for easier prey.

The droid appears a few minutes later. I check its readout. One Jedi was spotted in Mos Espa. The coordinates indicate that he is heading out of the spaceport. He is most likely returning to his ship.

Jedi, I hope you are complacent right now. I hope you think you are safe for the moment. I know your arrogance tells you that you are a match for whoever is looking for you. Your surprise will add to my pleasure when I destroy you.

hmmm, doesn't say exactly what the wound is, does it? (and thanks for the post!)

Personally, I'm still rather certain Obi-Wan would take this, probably 8/10 times or something along the lines of that- this is not saying Kenobi's Soresu thoroughly out-classes Maul's Juyo, but rather that Obi-Wan will PSYCHOLOGICALLY reduce Maul to an angry beast.

Grievous, along with Mustafar Vader, are arguably Kenobi's most impressive defeats during his history of being a Jedi; they're both similar to Maul, especially Vader. Remember, there was NOTHING to indicate the fact that Maul is an intelligent fighter; similar to Anakin. He had skills that were superior to TPM Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon, but ultimately lost due to be overconfidence.

However, I think that Kenobi will take out Maul Grievous-style; Maul's barrage of Juyo attacks (which specialize in speed; no-one is claiming Maul is SLOW) will, despite using the Double-Blade to form an apparent advantage, be utterly incapable of penetrating Obi-Wan's defense, causing Maul to become angry and frustrated, and his attacks will become sloppy and less percise; eventually, Obi-Wan will likely cut off his hands or disarm him.

It's true Maul has one near-defeat and one defeat that are extremely impressive; one is almost killing Sidious, who managed to fight equally against Yoda later on in a lightsaber duel, and the other is this Anoon Bondara person. I seriously think that 'second to none' lightsaber skills are an exaggerration, which the authors of some novels have a tendency to do, similarly to how Mace's B-team was composed of 'some of the finest swordsmen in the order'.

Against Sidious, Maul didn't almost kill-him; rather, Sidious quickly disarmed Maul, who DID successfully catch him off-guard with an array of vicious attacks; note that Sidious was only using a training lightsaber, indicating he was NOT trying to kill Maul during the fight, but rather test Maul's abilities when he completely surrendered to the dark side. Being starved, mentally weak, and angry would have EMPOWERED Maul rather than weakening him, using the pain to enhance the power of his dark side abilities, becoming a dervish of rage. But once again, Sidious beat him.

Originally posted by Sidi-Boy
It's true Maul has one near-defeat and one defeat that are extremely impressive; one is almost killing Sidious, who managed to fight equally against Yoda later on in a lightsaber duel, and the other is this Anoon Bondara person. I seriously think that 'second to none' lightsaber skills are an exaggerration, which the authors of some novels have a tendency to do, similarly to how Mace's B-team was composed of 'some of the finest swordsmen in the order'.

The only thing is that in the same book (Darth Maul Shadow Hunter) Yoda was called the best lightsaber duelist on the council and Anoon was never on the council. And I believe that the wording of that quote is similar to Anoon's but it added the jedi council to while Anoon's didn't. Though Anoon also had the quote from Cloack of Deception to back it up that his saber skills were considreable. Mind you that this was shortly before TPM though. But even then Yoda very rarely even gave lightsaber demonstrations and really didn't participate on missions so I don't see his skills improving too much if at all until AOTC which is around the level that I would personally put Anoon's lightsaber skills around the AOTC Dooku/Yoda.

Kenobi. Without breaking a sweat.
That's my opinion.
If Obi-Wan can deal with Grievous and Vader, I think he should be able to defeat Maul easily.

Originally posted by truejedi
hmmm, doesn't say exactly what the wound is, does it? (and thanks for the post!)

I know, I don't actually own the journals and I have not found them online to read so I just copied and paste that from wookieepedia. Though i seem to remember a statement(and commenting on it) that said Mau was not going to tell Sidious about his injury because he would have been mad.

Originally posted by In Rainbows
Kenobi. Without breaking a sweat.
That's my opinion.
If Obi-Wan can deal with Grievous and Vader, I think he should be able to defeat Maul easily.

This is one of things that piss me off,me and MOC are in the middle of the debate and as much as i disagree with him on this issue, he is still trying to post an argument that is based on more than a single sentence. And it is not just in this thread but all threads when there is a big debate going someone posts there opinion without backing it up while everyone else iadressing several different points,etc.

Right. Well, sorry then. I was just saying who would win according to me. If it'll make you happy, I'll read your little debate already.

No wait, I have to take a shit. Sounds like a lot more fun to me.

I think people are putting Darth Maul's chances really short here.

lets see he mastered juyo(a form 7 lightsaber style).. and to do this he would have to be a high level master of other lightsaber forms as well.

hes completely mastered the use of a deadly double sided lightsaber. and is also versatile and can switch to a single sided one when thats more useful/convinient. hes mixed different martial arts into his fighting style as well. he was simply trained from a young age by Sidious to be like the perfect jedi killer. he was pretty much a bad ****.

he extended his fighting skills to a wide range and the chances are not even Sidious was well versed in all the different fighting techniques which Maul incorporated into his own.

and then theres Kenobi whose "The Master" of Soresu. and is also pretty good with Ataru.

and hasnt Lucas put Maul, Dooku and OT Vader all in the same league somewhere. If anyone knows then please point that out. So in terms of Lightsaber combat id put him in Nick Gillards ranking as a level 8. But one of the higher level 8's like Dooku. Yeah id put his lightsaber skills in league with Dookus, but would say Dookus better due to his superior mastery of the Force. So that would certainly make Maul a good match for ROTS Obi-Wan.

I make this a long exhausting fight for both fighters, which could go either way. Just in fighting abilties, not talking about anyone outsamrting the other. If that comes into play then il give the win to Obi-Wan. But just for the record, when did Darth Maul become so stupid??

The only reason why Kenobi was able to beat Grevious so easily nwas becuase grevious didn't have the same advantage as Kenobi. He was stated to be completely in tune with the force. So although Grevious can attack alot in a short period of time, Kenobi knows where each strike will be and can thus dodge or block it and then when to counter attack relying on the fact that Grevious doesn't have the same advantage. This won't work for Maul as he does and thus does the A>B so A>C argument fail.

Originally posted by In Rainbows
Right. Well, sorry then. I was just saying who would win according to me. If it'll make you happy, I'll read your little debate already.

No wait, I have to take a shit. Sounds like a lot more fun to me.

I apologize if it sounded like I was angry at you personally which I assure you I am not. It is only my complaint about the regulars that are on this forum, who would post an opinion similar to that in the middle of the debate. So once again I'm sorry if it seemed like my post was directed only at you or specifically signaling you out.

Originally posted by Darth Exodus
The only reason why Kenobi was able to beat Grevious so easily nwas becuase grevious didn't have the same advantage as Kenobi. He was stated to be completely in tune with the force. So although Grevious can attack alot in a short period of time, Kenobi knows where each strike will be and can thus dodge or block it and then when to counter attack relying on the fact that Grevious doesn't have the same advantage. This won't work for Maul as he does and thus does the A>B so A>C argument fail.

A>B>C arguments always fail. Period.

But this is no A>B>C argument. Personally, I think Anoon Bondara was probably a powerful Jedi about as strong as Qui-Gon; good enough to put up a fight against Maul, but ultimately lose. Anyway, Grievous would likely be of similar strength to Maul in terms of lightsaber skills; however, Maul has Teras Kasi and the force, making him an ultimately superior foe to ROTS Sidious (but probably not to EU Grievous).

I really can't see how it isn't obivius that Obi-Wan will beat Maul... maybe not uberOMGWTFpwnOWNzorZ, but defeat him comfortably. Let's analyze the fight between Obi and Maul in TPM... Obi actually seemed to have the upper hand, but after breaking the saberlock, Maul pushed him away. Maul was probably the superior duelist, but Obi-Wan just standing up to him is impressive; now, Obi-Wan 13 years later, battle-hardened and completely mastering a new style that would be a perfect counter to Maul's uncontrolled, furious Juyo.

Also, Obi-Wan is likely superior to Maul in the force, too; while Maul did push him away, I don't remember him being capable of hurling someone HEAVIER than Kenobi much more far away than Maul did him, or match force strength with the chosen one, someone's whose potential is actually greater than SIDIOUS' or YODA'S, the two strongest force users in the galaxy at the time.

Oh, by the way... do you mean to imply that Maul > Yoda, by saying Anoon Bondara is roughly AOTC Yoda-level?

A>B>C arguments always fail. Period.

Hardly. They only fail if a special circumstance or not-always-applicable advantage factors in, otherwise they're perfectly valid.

Originally posted by Sidi-Boy
A>B>C arguments always fail. Period.

But this is no A>B>C argument. Personally, I think Anoon Bondara was probably a powerful Jedi about as strong as Qui-Gon; good enough to put up a fight against Maul, but ultimately lose. Anyway, Grievous would likely be of similar strength to Maul in terms of lightsaber skills; however, Maul has Teras Kasi and the force, making him an ultimately superior foe to ROTS Sidious (but probably not to EU Grievous).

The principle MOC is using is similar to the XZy principle. "because Obiwan beat Grievous with "ease" than he beats maul easier" that just doesn't cut it.

I really can't see how it isn't obivius that Obi-Wan will beat Maul... maybe not uberOMGWTFpwnOWNzorZ, but defeat him comfortably.

Let's analyze the fight between Obi and Maul in TPM... Obi actually seemed to have the upper hand, but after breaking the saberlock, Maul pushed him away. Maul was probably the superior duelist, but Obi-Wan just standing up to him is impressive; now, Obi-Wan 13 years later, battle-hardened and completely mastering a new style that would be a perfect counter to Maul's uncontrolled, furious Juyo.

Maul was superior to Obiwan who was using the darkside in Obiwan's own words

Obiwan said this on page 29 of the jedi vs sith guide:

When the last door lifted, I gave into my anger as I charged the dark warrior. I absolutely wanted to destroy him. He used my anger against me,actually fed off my fury,gaining strength as I exhausted my own. I lost my lightsaber and he had me......

I would like to further add that Obiwan's statement (about 5 years after tpm i believe) does not contradict the movie because Obiwan is merely describing what he felt inside of him.

Also, Obi-Wan is likely superior to Maul in the force, too; while Maul did push him away, I don't remember him being capable of hurling someone HEAVIER than Kenobi much more far away than Maul did him, or match force strength with the chosen one, someone's whose potential is actually greater than SIDIOUS' or YODA'S, the two strongest force users in the galaxy at the time.

Oh, by the way... do you mean to imply that Maul > Yoda, by saying Anoon Bondara is roughly AOTC Yoda-level?

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