Originally posted by Elite Hunter
The principle MOC is using is similar to the XZy principle. "because Obiwan beat Grievous with "ease" than he beats maul easier" that just doesn't cut it.
Grievous and Maul fight similarly- otherwise, I would not possibly compare Obi-Wan's defeat of Grievous to his theoretical defeat of Maul. For example- Obi-Wan could beat Anakin (or at least match up to him), who beat Dooku, who beat Obi-Wan. These sort of arguments fail; but only because Dooku fights differently than Anakin and the likes. So yes, Grievous can be used as a comparison to Maul here.
Originally posted by Elite Hunter
Obiwan will win but Maul wont go down without putting up a tough fight. I'd say Obiwan wins but it wont be comfortable (or layed back) Obiwan will need to go all out. (not that he would necessarily be in a position as close to death as he was in TPM)
'Winning comfortably' doesn't mean being laid back or something like that; it just means defeating the opponent without any legitimate chance of being defeated. At least, that's my interpretation of it. Obi-Wan never showed the tendency to toy with his opponents, so I doubt he'll do it now.
Originally posted by Elite Hunter
Maul was superior to Obiwan who was using the darkside in Obiwan's own wordsObiwan said this on page 29 of the jedi vs sith guide:
When the last door lifted, I gave into my anger as I charged the dark warrior. I absolutely wanted to destroy him. He used my anger against me,actually fed off my fury,gaining strength as I exhausted my own. I lost my lightsaber and he had me......
I would like to further add that Obiwan's statement (about 5 years after tpm i believe) does not contradict the movie because Obiwan is merely describing what he felt inside of him.
I never claimed Maul wasn't superior to Kenobi in saber combat by TPM; but they were damned close. It's true Kenobi was using the dark side, and I think that Maul would've beaten him in a fair fight, but still... let's use a similar comparison, shall we? Right then, Dooku absolutely schooled Anakin in AOTC, but lost his head to the ROTS incarnation of him. That was through a time difference of three years, during which Anakin further customized his fighting style to be more of a dueling form. Now, Obi-Wan changed his style, mastered it, and gained experience over the course of 13 YEARS, and he didn't exactly get his ass handed to him in the Dooku fashion.
Originally posted by Elite Hunter
Maul use the force in a physical way though I would like to add that he got right back from being blasted and while still being blasted from force lightning cut down the force witch. http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Image:Mighella_VS_Maul.jpg
That's endurance, not force power. That's like saying Yoda was stronger than Sidious in the force because he recovered from his force lightning jolt rather quickly. There's a difference.
Originally posted by Elite Hunter
No I am not. I put Anoon around Yoda in lightsaber skill only though he wasn't a slouch in the force and for the record I'm not saying that Anoon or Mau > AOTC Yoda merely around his lightsaber skill whether it is a little lower. But Anoon's technique/swordsmanship could rival Yoda. It is a little complicated but this is a discussion for this thread.
Understood. I'm pretty sure that is was exaggerration, but I'm not saying his skills weren't formidable; by clarifying that Bondara's lightsaber techniques were second to none, it creates a paradox, as it says that TPM Obi-Wan is almost as strong as Yoda (due to him being almost as strong as Maul) in terms of lightsaber skills. Which makes no sense whatsoever.
Originally posted by Sidi-BoyI never claimed Maul wasn't superior to Kenobi in saber combat by TPM; but they were damned close.
really? they were close? if that was so Obi-Wan would have been able to keep up with the fight, instead of getting left behind..
also how long did it take Maul to win the duel against Obi-Wan? like half a minute.. maybe a few seconds longer...
Obi-Wan had a huge rest from the battle, Maul had been fighting for a while, first against both of them, then against Qui-Gon twice, and then had to fight Obi-Wan.. Nd Obi-Wan saw his mentor die, so gave it his very best shot, gaining an advantage at one point, but despite all this he still lost the duel relatively quickly.
Originally posted by Sidi-Boy
and he didn't exactly get his ass handed to him in the Dooku fashion.
He kept hitting Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan really hard, and they only survived because the other one was there to keep fighting. Obi-Wan got hit by Maul So Hard that his lightsaber fell out of his hand... Twice!
And I think Obi-Wan lasted a fair bit longer against Dooku in AOTC than he did against Maul. unless your talking about the Force move Dooku did to Obi-Wan in ROTS.. cause yeah Maul culdnt do that to Obi-Wan.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
really? they were close? if that was so Obi-Wan would have been able to keep up with the fight, instead of getting left behind..also how long did it take Maul to win the duel against Obi-Wan? like half a minute.. maybe a few seconds longer...
Obi-Wan had a huge rest from the battle, Maul had been fighting for a while, first against both of them, then against Qui-Gon twice, and then had to fight Obi-Wan.. Nd Obi-Wan saw his mentor die, so gave it his very best shot, gaining an advantage at one point, but despite all this he still lost the duel relatively quickly.
He kept hitting Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan really hard, and they only survived because the other one was there to keep fighting. Obi-Wan got hit by Maul So Hard that his lightsaber fell out of his hand... Twice!
And I think Obi-Wan lasted a fair bit longer against Dooku in AOTC than he did against Maul. unless your talking about the Force move Dooku did to Obi-Wan in ROTS.. cause yeah Maul culdnt do that to Obi-Wan.
i have a question thats up for discussion if anybody wants to chime in but i direct it to you first Darth Power.
this is the question,
after tapping into the darkside, did TPM kenobi do anything that he wasnt already capable of?
did the dark side give him an actual boost in ability or just give him the agression to use the ability he already had?
Originally posted by Man of ChristGiving into anger always gives the combatant a temporary boost - it's what's the Dark side is all about. And aside from lil' Obi-Wan, Anakin and Luke demonstrate it against Dooku and Vader, respectively.
i have a question thats up for discussion if anybody wants to chime in but i direct it to you first Darth Power.this is the question,
after tapping into the darkside, did TPM kenobi do anything that he wasnt already capable of?
did the dark side give him an actual boost in ability or just give him the agression to use the ability he already had?
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
really? they were close? if that was so Obi-Wan would have been able to keep up with the fight, instead of getting left behind.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
also how long did it take Maul to win the duel against Obi-Wan? like half a minute.. maybe a few seconds longer...Obi-Wan had a huge rest from the battle, Maul had been fighting for a while, first against both of them, then against Qui-Gon twice, and then had to fight Obi-Wan.. Nd Obi-Wan saw his mentor die, so gave it his very best shot, gaining an advantage at one point, but despite all this he still lost the duel relatively quickly.
That's true; however, if you would analyze the actual fight, you would see that Obi-Wan was on the offensive, and attacked Maul, cutting his saber in half, etc, etc, etc... in reality, he pushed Maul away, who subsequently force pushed him. FORCE PUSHED HIM. We're talking about saber skills here, not force abilities; Obi-Wan was overwhelming Maul, so he decided to take the easy path and push him away. In addition, Maul did not seem in any way tired, unlike Qui-Gon, who seemed to be rather tired... Maul's a stamina beast. His endurance is one of his better traits.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
He kept hitting Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan really hard, and they only survived because the other one was there to keep fighting. Obi-Wan got hit by Maul So Hard that his lightsaber fell out of his hand... Twice!And I think Obi-Wan lasted a fair bit longer against Dooku in AOTC than he did against Maul. unless your talking about the Force move Dooku did to Obi-Wan in ROTS.. cause yeah Maul culdnt do that to Obi-Wan.
MAUL WAS STRONGER THAN BOTH QUI-GON AND OBI-WAN. I did not deny that; Qui-Gon was exauhsted during the fight, while Obi-Wan was a Padawan who did not even fully master his form of choice. Obi-Wan lasted more against Dooku because he was 10 years more experienced than how he was against Maul; and once again, Maul force-pushed Obi-Wan rather than beat him with a saber.
Originally posted by Sidi-BoyActuallyThat's true; however, if you would analyze the actual fight, you would see that Obi-Wan was on the offensive, and attacked Maul, cutting his saber in half, etc, etc, etc... in reality, he pushed Maul away, who subsequently force pushed him. FORCE PUSHED HIM. We're talking about saber skills here, not force abilities; Obi-Wan was overwhelming Maul, so he decided to take the easy path and push him away.
Originally posted by Elite Hunter
Maul was superior to Obiwan who was using the darkside in Obiwan's own wordsObiwan said this on page 29 of the jedi vs sith guide:
When the last door lifted, I gave into my anger as I charged the dark warrior. I absolutely wanted to destroy him. He used my anger against me,actually fed off my fury,gaining strength as I exhausted my own. I lost my lightsaber and he had me......
I would like to further add that Obiwan's statement (about 5 years after tpm i believe) does not contradict the movie because Obiwan is merely describing what he felt inside of him which is something that movies can't show during a duel.
Originally posted by Man of Christ
i have a question thats up for discussion if anybody wants to chime in but i direct it to you first Darth Power.this is the question,
after tapping into the darkside, did TPM kenobi do anything that he wasnt already capable of?
did the dark side give him an actual boost in ability or just give him the agression to use the ability he already had?
not sure why your directing the question to me considering i never mentioned Obi-Wan giving into his anger.
But ill answer neway. yes your rite.. obi-wan didnt do anything he wasnt capable of. after seeing his mentor die, he went all out and gave maul everything he had.. (and you could see Maul was expecting that and enjoying every second of it) but it wasnt enough. Maul still won the duel
Originally posted by Sidi-BoyThat's true; however, if you would analyze the actual fight, you would see that Obi-Wan was on the offensive, and attacked Maul, cutting his saber in half, etc, etc, etc... in reality, he pushed Maul away, who subsequently force pushed him. FORCE PUSHED HIM. We're talking about saber skills here, not force abilities; Obi-Wan was overwhelming Maul, so he decided to take the easy path and push him away. In addition, Maul did not seem in any way tired, unlike Qui-Gon, who seemed to be rather tired... Maul's a stamina beast. His endurance is one of his better traits.
i remember the fight as going backwards and forwards. not just Obi-Wan forcing Maul back. nd by the way if u watch it carefully just before Maul Force pushes Obi-Wan he forces his saber back towards Obi-Wan first leaving an opening for Maul to Force Push him.
neway force push is not a particularly adavanced force move. its a standard attack. like a kick or a punch midfight. in fact in an interview with Wizard Ray Park said the force thing was his idea, a way for him not to keep repeating the same moves. also Maul got that opening because you could see Obi-Wan tiring.
nd yeah Mauls got good stamina. but when Obi-Wans been out of the fight for a while, and Maul was fighting the whole time, it obviously gives Obi-Wan the advantage. and yet Obi-Wan still tired first. you can that towards the end of the fight, that Obi-Wans given it everything nd is tiring now.
Originally posted by Sidi-Boy
MAUL WAS STRONGER THAN BOTH QUI-GON AND OBI-WAN. I did not deny that; Qui-Gon was exauhsted during the fight, while Obi-Wan was a Padawan who did not even fully master his form of choice. Obi-Wan lasted more against Dooku because he was 10 years more experienced than how he was against Maul; and once again, Maul force-pushed Obi-Wan rather than beat him with a saber.
I know the Dooku fight was 10 years later. i said that becuase you said Maul didnt pawn ObiWan the way Dooku did. but I think he actually did. Again Force push is a standard attack during a Saber fight. like a kick.. you can only kick your opponent during a saber fight if he lets his guard down, and your quick enough to take advantage.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
i remember the fight as going backwards and forwards. not just Obi-Wan forcing Maul back. nd by the way if u watch it carefully just before Maul Force pushes Obi-Wan he forces his saber back towards Obi-Wan first leaving an opening for Maul to Force Push him.neway force push is not a particularly adavanced force move. its a standard attack. like a kick or a punch midfight. in fact in an interview with Wizard Ray Park said the force thing was his idea, a way for him not to keep repeating the same moves. also Maul got that opening because you could see Obi-Wan tiring.
nd yeah Mauls got good stamina. but when Obi-Wans been out of the fight for a while, and Maul was fighting the whole time, it obviously gives Obi-Wan the advantage. and yet Obi-Wan still tired first. you can that towards the end of the fight, that Obi-Wans given it everything nd is tiring now.
That's all true. As I've stated; Maul was STRONGER than Obi-Wan. Why do people keep acting as if I've said Obi-Wan was the stronger one? lol. Obi-Wan seemed to have the slight edge in their fight, though; as he cut Maul's lightsaber in half and seemed to be pushing him back, before Maul knocked away his saber and force-pushed him. Please. I'm not the one to say "OMG LOL HE USED FORCE PUSHED he was overpowered lolz Obi-Wan ownz he wtfpwned Maul, Maul's a cheater LAWL". Maul legitimately overpowered Kenobi; it's simply the fact that if Maul could have slain Kenobi then with his lightsaber, wouldn't it be simpler? Wouldn't it have been simpler for Dooku to later on saber him if he was weaker than him in sabers (talking about ROTS)? This is just one of the numerous examples in which the Sith take advantage of the easy way. That seems to separate them from the "Short way and the right way" Jedis. I'll use several examples:
Dooku vs. Yoda: Dooku uses the force to distract Yoda while he gets away. Really? Was it because Dooku could pwn Yoda but he chose not to? Err... no. He was being overpowered, so he decided to use the easy and safer way to pull a get away.
Dooku vs. Anakin/Obi-Wan: The novelization clarified that Dooku was being pwned in the fight, so he decided to use the force- in which his mastery is far superior to Obi-Wan's due to the vast amount of experience he possesses- in order to take him out quickly rather than saber him, which would be risky.
Sidious vs. Mace/Yoda: Similarly, during the fight against Mace, Mace seemed to be overpowered- note the expressions he was making during the duel, extreme strain and showing obivious difficulty in parrying Sidious' strikes, so he decided to use the tactical advantage and a well-placed kick to disarm the overpowering Sith Lord. Against Yoda, Sidious was dead equal; so, instead of waiting to end a battle which would've gone either way, he decided to switch tactics and use the force in order to make it easier on him...
It's the difference between Sith and Jedi. Sith take easy and more practical paths during combat. Now, why did I bother with this rant? There wasn't a single time when an opponent who was overpowering the other chose to use the force (or tactical advantages) rather than simply saber him to death; with the exception of Sidious vs. Yoda and possibly Sidious vs. Mace, the user of the 'dirty tricks' stuff was being overpowered; in the latter two, it was simply because it would be easier to overcome the other via force powers. Unless of course Sid threw the fight against Mace... but that's irrelevant here...
Anyway. with all this evidence, I think it's safe to say Maul wasn't overpowering Obi-Wan. As for Obi's quote... it means Maul eluded Obi-Wan and causes him to be more open and easier to attack. That's what happened in the film, too... nothing in it contradicts my arguments.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I know the Dooku fight was 10 years later. i said that becuase you said Maul didnt pawn ObiWan the way Dooku did. but I think he actually did. Again Force push is a standard attack during a Saber fight. like a kick.. you can only kick your opponent during a saber fight if he lets his guard down, and your quick enough to take advantage.
During Dooku vs. Obi-Wan, it was highly possibly that Dooku was simply toying with Obi-Wan; note his "Master Kenobi, you disappoint me!" stuff and obiviously amused face. You don't see any of that when he's up against them in ROTS or when he's up against Yoda later on; it was, to me at least, obivious that he was simply more than a much for Obi-Wan but chose to toy with Obi-Wan. Maybe some sort of emotional attachment to his apprentice's apprentice? The one who killed his predecessor? Maybe.
ic, i just read the wikipedia entry for it, sounded pretty cool, esp. the part where all Obi-Wan cared about was "does Palpatine know" before owning Maul, but there should be a story where Obi-Wan actually has something to do.
There should be some books written about what Obi-Wan and Yoda do all those years, and it shouldn't be, just sit around and meditate. Mebbe help the rebel alliance, mebbe train some other Jedi's. Maybe meet some of the other Jedi, i don't know, there should be something though.
Originally posted by Sidi-BoyThe movie disagrees. The novel depicted a fight that was completely different in every manner save for the conclusion, and greatly favored the duo, while the movie had them getting tossed around like idiots until the end. No, Dooku wasn't having very much trouble at all.
Dooku vs. Anakin/Obi-Wan: The novelization clarified that Dooku was being pwned in the fight,
here is my logic.
For a total of 3 seconds, maul stood in a stupor as kenobi flipped over him, grabbed his dead master's lightsaber, turned around, and cut him in half. IDIOT
Then kenobi grew up and became the greatest master of soresu in history. Mace called him the greatest of the jedi. After this, a sad, obligated obi wan soundly spanked an angry, darkside embued "IN TEH ZONE!!11111" anakin skywalker, the abilities of whom im not going to elaborate upon. He also took out an extremely skilled Lightsaber whirlwind, capable to fend against dooku, in about 8 seconds of combat.
Seriously, i can see you giving maul props for causing a formidible jedi to commit suicide to try and kill him, but this character conflicts with the skill and reflexes shown in the movies by maul. In such a conflict, movies are #1 priority, correct?
