Sephiroth Vs. Sargeras

As i said, if Archimonde could be proven to have greater mind, or Killy a greater mind than the Lich King, then perhaps they would have more power, his magical powers were indeed expanded since Kiljaeden gave the Lich King more power overall did he not? he doesnt use Shaman powers, he must have gained lich power and other such from Killy.

Becci or you once said that Killy and Archi have potential omnipotence, their understanding however of power and such is not vast enough to use omnipotence and likely never will, so i was saying if Lich King has a greater mind and is expanded beyond them, perhaps he has a few more tricks than those who cannot see as far as he can in the mind.

It simply grew full stop, it doesnt say "just so" he can control the undead, thats definatley an ability of his mind but that is never stated the limit, the mind in a way can amount of intelligence if your mind is so much vaster than others.

Originally posted by Burning thought
why not? lichdom can lead to many things anyway, his mind is vast, 10k fold his mind is expanded, that could mean he can think of 10k more ways perhaps to do something to someone, or to use his power, you did say that Archimonde/kiljaedens weakness is although their power may be potentially omnipotent, they dont have the intellect of the things they want to do, wheras Lich King is expanded in mind 10k fold who knows what he is capable of using his power for, dark power can do so many things usually.

He may not be as limited as you may think, he does not need Shaman or paladin if the vastness of his mind allows him to see into his own power far higher than most in Azeroth.

Lich King may have had his mind expanded 10k fold, but lets face it. He was not very bright in the first place 😛 The expanding would not do to him what it would do to for example: Gul'Dan, or Durotan.

His 10k fold would in my opinion barely get him close to Kil'jaedens intellect. You are right though, he is more powerful, but not more magically efficient. We are talking about efficiency here, and not actual raw power. He could likely finish Malfuion with one single blast, even though Malfurion is so much more effective.

Originally posted by Utrigita
BECCI

Agreed Becci he isn't but higher ranking the Azshara isn't correct.

Imo if it's Xavius High Elf he isn't justified to be there, if it's Xavius Satyr he deserves a place on the list.

BT

Hence placing him where he is 😉

The Sunwell has to be magic to cheat the the magical senses of others. And the Demonsoul imo magic too along with will power.

The day the Lich King calls forth a storm that can lay waste to the Burning Legion like Malfurion did while he was still relative unexperienced in the arts of Druidisme which was some 10.000 years ago, The Lich King can be ranked higher until then I think his place is ok based on what we know about his magical abilities.

He is a fusion between a magical being and a physical the Lich King is imo not more of one then the other.

I did some more thinking, followed by some redecorating. I was of course talking about Xavius from the point where he became Satyr and "blessed" by Sargeras:

1. Anveena
2. Malygos
3. Velen
4. Azshara
5. Medivh
6. Alexstrasza
7. Kel'Thuzad
8. Xavius
9. Malfurion
10. Lich King

Originally posted by Becci
Lich King may have had his mind expanded 10k fold, but lets face it. He was not very bright in the first place 😛

His 10k fold would in my opinion barely get him close to Kil'jaedens intellect. You are right though, he is more powerful, but not more magically efficient. We are talking about efficiency here, and not actual raw power. He could likely finish Malfuion with one single blast, even though Malfurion is so much more effective.

well i dont know, he is still an old and fairly powerful shaman, being a shaman is intelligence enough even if he is tripped up several times he was not so bad, 10k fold is enormous however

hmm wel we will have to see, imo he is far above Kiljaeden, I mean for all Kiljaedens cunning he is seemingly constantly angry which will cost him, almost evey character who is constantly angry and threatening often lose grip on that character or that character deals a blow but still as you said efficient, by efficiency do you mean variety of powers or something?

Ner'Zhul was not bright at all. In fact, he pretty much brought shame over the shaman people 😛 He lost his shaman powers because he made one stupid misstake after the other. It did not take long before the spirits abandoned him completely.

He may exceed many, but he will never exceed Kil'Jaeden.
By efficiency, I mean both varity and reach of powers. All listed characters have made impressive things with magic. The fact that Lich King is even on the list, is because he has potentials. If Kel'Thuzad taught him the arts of necromancy, Lich King would be highly efficient. As it is right now, he has the potentials at mind and power, but not at the two combined.

Take Kil'Jaeden for instance: He is one of the smartest being in the universe and his magical powers are infinite. Despite he is smarter than Archimonde, his powers are not going the same path. Archimonde can do things Kil'Jaeden can not, while Kil'Jaeden can do things Archimonde can not. They both have the same infinite powers, but they can not use them. Kil'Jaeden is smart, but he is not good enough a learner yet to become omnipotent.

My point is: Lich King had his mind expanded. This does not mean his powers expand equally. Just because his mind expanded, does not mean he automaticly learned his full potentials.

who knows, maybe he needed to, you know....not be trapped formless in a lump of (is it still Diomand hard ice/crystal from the furthest reaches of the void in the lore?) void ice

It was plain ice. This I know due to the fact that Arthas smashed it with ease and the fact that even as a spirit could he make a crack in it 😛

He is powerful, yes. He on the other hand is not trained. I put him on the list with the sole reason that he has potentials to climb it. For all we know, he just has expanded death knight might.

no it was definatley more than plain ice, it was special, ill have to find where i read it was from the furthest reaches of the void

or for all we know he could one hit Kiljaeden

here we are:

specially crafted block of ice collected from the far reaches of the Twisting Nether. This frozen crystal was then cast into the ripe and unsuspecting world of Azeroth, settling in the desolate, snowy wastes of Northrend.

Originally posted by Burning thought
no it was definatley more than plain ice, it was special, ill have to find where i read it was from the furthest reaches of the void

or for all we know he could one hit Kiljaeden

The durability was that of ice, that is for sure. The special ice was likely in order to keep his spirit at place. The durability does not vary from ice at all.

No, he could not. You are forgetting one important thing with that theory of yours. As much as Lich King has expanded, both Archimonde and Kil'Jaeden were blessed by Sargeras in the extent of endurance. It is proven that only the most vast amounts of nature magic can even harm them (So far of course), which is something Lich King does not have. Lich King could probably not even breach the mana-shield before he would die against Kil'Jaeden.

who knows, i mean hell it was hit by a non basic item wasnt it....it was hit by frostmourne, so why it was crafted so specially is prob for diffrent reasons, but it doesnt matter what its made from.

why so? I wouldnt be surprised if he just over powered Kiljeadens mind and took it over. well i would because that would be boring......and we dont know how much neccerily they were blessed or how the new lich kings expanded mind and power as well as a true form will effect him, and no he does not have nature magic but as you said "so far" i dont think that writes off them being harmed by anything else. he prob wouldnt have to breach the mana shield, hed prob just break their spirit/energy bond with it and find more clever ways than Killy or Archi are capable of finding to beat his opponents.

Archimonde fought Malorne and won unharmed. THAT is how much their endurance was blessed with. Remember that Malorne is of nature and nature is the known vulnerable point for these guys, yet not even he could harm Archimonde.

You can not possibly think that Lich King could mentally overpower Kil'Jaeden. With what exactly? The art of the mind is a warlock feat and not that of a necromancer. Kil'Jaeden if anyone would mentally overpower the Lich King. Just because Lich King expanded 10k fold, does not mean he gain powers that divert from the powers of an actual lich.

Does it actually say nature is a known weakness somewhere? ime curious?

Hes a master of the mind ,thats common knowledge, didnt he completly overpower the minds of everyone around him in Northrend, taking the minds of the wendigo and wild creatures nearer northcrown, the only reason he had to war with the Nerubians is because they were somehow immune to mind control were they not? also what do you call the powers of a lich, a lich is simply an extremely powerful undead magic user, just because in Warcraft 3 they chose its unit powers to be ice doesnt mean thats all lich King can use.

No, but only nature damage have actually harmed them trough all the years.

Lich King tame minds trough corruption. Unless you think his corruption is more powerful than Sargeras, then there is no point having this discussion. He will have to best the corruption of Sargeras in order to tame the mind of Kil'Jaeden. Lich King convert people trough body and soul. A strong enough will-power and resistance to corruption will make it impossible for him to tame another being.

The Nerubian is both persistant and has a strong resistance to all type of attacks, including corruption.

As for the whole lich magic limit thing. Do you not take in consideration that EVERY lich in history has only had access to frost and necromancy abilities? How can you make a claim that they have more, if no lich in the history of Warcraft has shown to ever be more than frost and necromancy?

One fact I would like to add about the Lich King supposed higher level is the scene from Warcraft 3 where Archimonde removes the command over the undead from the Lich King after his power has been expanded 10k

Btw Becci agree roughly with the order now. 🙂

At this point, Arthas is probably more powerful than the Dragons.

Combined ore single aspects and which ones?

Arthas would surely not be able to take Malygos, Nozdormu or late Neltharion down.

The only one I think he would have good chance at taking down is Ysera, I see Alexstrasza giving him one hell of a fight.

Yes, but there is hope against Alexstrasza and Ysera. The three other aspects are just mad. Although in truth I think both Ysera and Alexstrasza would stand a chance.

Agreed the three others would wreck him.

Alexstrasza a better one then Ysera imo, she has always appeared as being the weakest of them.