Darth Tyranus vs Darth Maul and Obi-Wan

Started by Pyron_Knight3 pages
How does the movie contradict the fact that Dooku was tired?

Because he never...once...expresses any fatigue in the film?

I expect better than this. Dooku replenished himself with the Force, as per the novelization. Prove that he wasn't tired.

Do you want me to go and get every shot of Dooku's face or something? Nothing in the movie suggests he was tired or he had to "recharge" like he did in the novel.

"He pushed this aside, drawing once more upon the certain knowledge of his personal invincibility to open a channel to the Force. Power flowed into him, and the weight of his years dropped away. "

Did you see anything like that in the movie?

Originally posted by Pyron_Knight
Because he never...once...expresses any fatigue in the film?

So, because he didn't stop and breathe heavily, he must have been energetic. Or perhaps it was because those patented computerized replicas of Lee's face weren't exactly expressive?

Do you want me to go and get every shot of Dooku's face or something? Nothing in the movie suggests he was tired or he had to "recharge" like he did in the novel.

"He pushed this aside, drawing once more upon the certain knowledge of his personal invincibility to open a channel to the Force. Power flowed into him, and the weight of his years dropped away. "

Did you see anything like that in the movie?

You'll need a lot more than that to disprove the novelization.

The novel fight is vastly different than the movie's version. The fatigue is just one part of it.
The two versions of the fights are practically incomparable.

If Dooku doesn't show he's tired in the movie, he isn't. Don't assume things based on a lower source.

Don't tell the better debater what to do. 🙂

In the first place, you seem to think that the only true evidence of someone being fatigued or tired is breathing heavily, but no, not necessarily.

The movie never shows what many would call an energetic Dooku, either, and therefore, there is absolutely nothing to contradict what is written in the novel.

And what, can YOU tell when someone uses the Force to replenish his stamina? You can't tell, nobody can, and if the novel says so, it is fact.

It's completely irrelevant, so I don't see why anyone would bother arguing it. Dooku's nearly four times as old as either Maul or Anakin - clearly, his physical stamina is going to suffer in comparison.

I know, but some people just fail to see that, for whatever reasons.

The movie can't tell you how a character feels on the inside. Just because there is no outside reaction doesn't mean that point is not valid. When I play sooccer I get tired towards the end of the game but I don't show it, it really is not that hard to hide the fac that your tired. This is imo opinion is where a novel can exceed the movie, it can tell you how characters feel on the inside something the movie can't do in a lightsaber battle.

In the first place, you seem to think that the only true evidence of someone being fatigued or tired is breathing heavily, but no, not necessarily.

Of course. Sometimes what a character says or does can convey the emotion as well.
See how Dooku stops and takes a breath after fighting Anakin in EPII?

The movie never shows what many would call an energetic Dooku, either, and therefore, there is absolutely nothing to contradict what is written in the novel.

Energetic? You mean like hyper? No we don't. But if by energetic you mean full of energy, I think he qualifies. Fought Obi-Wan, Anakin and Yoda all in one go. I think that requires anyone to be full of energy.

And what, can YOU tell when someone uses the Force to replenish his stamina? You can't tell, nobody can, and if the novel says so, it is fact.

Interesting proposition. Take an almost absolutely different fight presented in the novels and proceed to take one detail from it and fit it into the movie version all so it benefits your argument. There's no proof of it but why not.

Originally posted by Pyron_Knight
Interesting proposition. Take an almost absolutely different fight presented in the novels and proceed to take one detail from it and fit it into the movie version all so it benefits your argument. There's no proof of it but why not.

He is not taking the different fight over the movie (such as dooku hurling an object at Anakin with the force) he is talking about the description of the character's emotions or how he feels.

So Dooku revitalized himself in the fight despite zero visual hints or evidence.
Fine, why not.

Here is some of the ROTS quotes regarding dooku's stamina.

This one takes place where Dooku force pushes Obiwan temporarily out of the battle.

He gathered the Force once more in a single indrawn breath that summoned power from throughout the universe; the slightest whipcrack of that power, negligent as a flick of his wrist, sent Kenobi flying backward to crash hard against the wall, but Dooku didn't have time to enjoy it.

Skywalker was all over him.

The shining blue lightsaber whirled and spat and every overhand chop crashed against Dooku's defense with the unstoppable power of a meteor strike; the Sith Lord spent lavishly of his reserve of the Force merely to meet these attacks without being cut in half, and Skywalker-Skywalker was getting stronger.
Each parry cost Dooku more power than he'd used to throw Kenobi across the room; each block aged him a decade.

He decided he'd best revise his strategy once again.

He no longer even tried to strike back. Force exhaustion began to close down his perceptions, drawing his consciousness back down to his physical form,trapping him within his own skull until he could barely even feel the contours of the room around him; he dimly sensed stairs at his back, stairs that led up to the entrance balcony. He retreated up them, using the higher ground for leverage, but Skywalker just kept on coming, tirelessly ferocious.

These quotes take place as Dooku knocks obiwan out of the battle and physical description of this part of the battle is on par with movies and in it describes dooku healing himself.

While Kenobi's bonelessly limp body was still tumbling toward the floor far below, Dooku sent a surge of energy through the Force. Kenobi's fall suddenly accelerated like a missile burning the last of its drives before impact. The Jedi Master struck the floor at a steep angle, skidded along it, and slammed into the wall so hard the hydrofoamed permacrete buckled and collapsed onto him.

This Dooku found exceedingly gratifying.

Now, as for Skywalker-Which was as far as Dooku got, because by the time his attention returned to the younger Jedi, his vision was rather completely obstructed by the sole of a boot approaching his face with something resembling terminal velocity.

The impact was a blast of white fire, and there was a second impact against his back that was the balcony rail, and then the room turned upside down and he fell toward the ceiling, but not really, of course: it only felt that way because he had flipped over the rail and he was falling headfirst toward the floor, and neither his arms nor his legs were paying any attention to what he was trying to make them do. The Force seemed to be busy elsewhere, and really, the whole process was entirely mortifying.

He was barely able to summon a last surge of dark power before what would have been a disabling impact. The Force cradled him, cushioning his fall and setting him on his feet.

He dusted himself off and fixed a supercilious gaze on Skywalker, who now stood upon the balcony looking down at him-and Dooku couldn't hold the stare; he found this reversal of their original positions oddly unsettling.

There was something troublingly appropriate about it. Seeing Skywalker standing where Dooku himself had stood only moments ago ... it was as though he was trying to remember a dream he'd never actually had . . .

He pushed this aside, drawing once more upon the certain knowledge of his personal invincibility to open a channel to the Force. Power flowed into him, and the weight of his years dropped away.

He lifted his blade, and beckoned.

Skywalker leapt from the balcony. Even as the boy hurtled downward, Dooku felt a new twist in the currents of the Force between them, and he finally understood.

The bold part(where dooku heals himself) happens right before Skywalker drops down from the balcony to attack(note that there is a about second for dooku to heal himself) Dooku is 100% accurate (thus it is canon) even to Dooku's flick of the blade just prior to Anakin hitting the ground.

Originally posted by Pyron_Knight
So Dooku revitalized himself in the fight despite zero visual hints or evidence.
Fine, why not.

The fact that you didn't see him tired doesn't mean he wasn't. But that's not my point.

I'll say it again: Even if Dooku did not look tired, it was ONLY because he used the Force to replenish his strength and stamina.
You don't need to have visual evidence, because one can replenish himself with the Force without making it visually obvious. Therefore, your point is moot.

Originally posted by Lt. Valerian
The fact that you didn't see him tired doesn't mean he wasn't. But that's not my point.

I'll say it again: Even if Dooku did not look tired, it was ONLY because he used the Force to replenish his strength and stamina.
You don't need to have visual evidence, because one can replenish himself with the Force without making it visually obvious. Therefore, your point is moot.

Correct. ^_^

Yoda replenished himself in ROTS against Palpatine.
Vader did it against Luke in ESB.

No visual evidence or clue of any kind? NO PROBLEM!

Originally posted by Pyron_Knight
Yoda replenished himself in ROTS against Palpatine.

Yes, they both did, and I think the reason is quite obvious.

Vader did it against Luke in ESB.

No, he didn't need to. Why? Because he wasn't even using his full strength... I thought that was quite obvious, as well.

No visual evidence or clue of any kind? NO PROBLEM!

What do you mean 'or clue of any kind'? It's C-Canon. Deal with it. And for the visual evidence, I've already explained, no need to do it again.

Hey, it's not my fault that you can't come up with a better argument.

Originally posted by Pyron_Knight
Yoda replenished himself in ROTS against Palpatine.
Vader did it against Luke in ESB.

No visual evidence or clue of any kind? NO PROBLEM!

Relying on "visual evidence" as the singular crux of your argument is, quite frankly, retarded. Perhaps if we were arguing in favor of something completely ridiculous or preposterous that required such basis, but it doesn't. All of the older characters have had to rely solely on the Force to compensate for their feeble physiology; the novelization and script make it clear that Dooku was burning out like a candle lit on both ends.

Originally posted by Gideon
Relying on "visual evidence" as the singular crux of your argument is, quite frankly, retarded. Perhaps if we were arguing in favor of something completely ridiculous or preposterous that required such basis, but it doesn't. All of the older characters have had to rely solely on the Force to compensate for their feeble physiology; the novelization and script make it clear that Dooku was burning out like a candle lit on both ends.

Exactly.

Yes, they both did, and I think the reason is quite obvious.

Says who?

No, he didn't need to. Why? Because he wasn't even using his full strength... I thought that was quite obvious.

Neither was Dooku at the point you all are trying to say he needed to revitalize.

What do you mean 'or clue of any kind'? It's C-Canon. Deal with it. And for the visual evidence, I've already explained, no need to do it again.

It's lower canon and contradicted by higher canon.
As for what you explained...you made up a load and shoved it in my face. That's not an explanation.

Relying on "visual evidence" as the singular crux of your argument is, quite frankly, retarded. Perhaps if we were arguing in favor of something completely ridiculous or preposterous that required such basis, but it doesn't. All of the older characters have had to rely solely on the Force to compensate for their feeble physiology; the novelization and script make it clear that Dooku was burning out like a candle lit on both ends.

Of course they rely on the Force. Who ever denied that?
You're using two lower sources and your own theories while ignoring what exactly happens in the movies.
I'll end this right now. Prove to me with G-Canon evidence from the movies that Dooku was tired or had to stop and replenish his energy.
If you can't you have nothing but lower sources contradicted by higher ones.

Originally posted by Pyron_Knight
Says who?

Neither was Dooku at the point you all are trying to say he needed to revitalize.

It's lower canon and contradicted by higher canon.
As for what you explained...you made up a load and shoved it in my face. That's not an explanation.

Of course they rely on the Force. Who ever denied that?
You're using two lower sources and your own theories while ignoring what exactly happens in the movies.
I watched the fight multiple times. And Dooku doesn't show fatigue or tiredness or anything.
G-Canon >>>>>> all. End of story.

Oh... Why bother. I would have thought you'd understood by now. Apparently you never will.

Funny, I was gonna say the same about you.
Have fun with your lower and invalid sources.