Rots Yoda vs Exar Kun

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
I didn't use it to prove him being more powerful than Exar Kun. And he's not 'allegedly'- he's canonically the most powerful lightsider, up until NJO Luke. And I really can't think of anyone in the NJO who surpassed Yoda.

Now then, a better assessment would be to see how Yoda stalemated with Sidious, a being who was confirmed by multiple sources to be greater than Exar Kun- and was called Sidious' equal by George Lucas. Sidious > Kun. Yoda = Sidious. I think that puts Yoda above Kun, don't you think?

A>B>C arguments don't really work. Obiwan defeated Anakin and Anakin defeated Dooku, so Obiwan can defeat Dooku?

Originally posted by Lord Knightfa11
yoda. "Greatest enemy the darkness had ever known" puts him a tier above kun.

This applies to Kun how?

And Crimzon, Deception said that 'he believes...', while acknowledging that he may not be right (or wrong). People here need to do that more often.

One doesn't require the shatterpoint charism to be able to detect the overwhelming flaws some of you have committed. Some of you would probably put Windu in a coma by sheer sensory overload.

Originally posted by Deception
By defining greatest enemy the darkness has ever known, it doesn't necessarily mean just pure and utter power. Yoda had a lot more wisdom and a lot more abilities than just force powers, hence the interpretation of such a quote is also up to each individual reader.

Absurd. The statement is thus: "the most devastatingly powerful foe the darkness had ever known" issued by an omniscient narrator of a documentation that supposedly was directly overseen by George Lucas himself (according to Mr. Stover); anything contrary to the straightforward interpretation -- power being stated in the midst of a duel to the death between the Grand Master of the Jedi Order and the Dark Lord of the Sith -- bears the burden of proof. The problem, Deception, is that you and others are notorious for basically saying "LOLZ THIS STATEMENT CAN BE INTERPRETATED MULTIPLE WAYYZ!" and then expecting that to nullify the quote or statement. And that is, of course, where you are thoroughly and grossly incorrect. You must elaborate and clarify, and vague citations that "YODA HAD OTHER ABILITIES!" other than Force prowess is not just less than satisfactory. It's retarded. Until you clarify, you lose.

I guess Marka Ragnos being "the most powerful of the most powerful" or whatever could refer to his political acumen or accounting skills.

LOL I WIN!

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
How does that quote equate to Yoda being more powerful than Exar Kun? Oh wait, it doesn't.

The statement itself implies superiority over Kun, if one wishes to stretch it. But you're absolutely correct; it does not, in any way, state that because Yoda is the most powerful Jedi in history he is automatically more powerful than the Sith Lord Exar Kun. The only way that would be true is if it were confirmed both sides of the Force were equal in potency.

It simply means he's the most powerful lightsider (allegedly).

Your syllogism notwithstanding, I have a major problem with this. Deception walks in and suddenly you doubt the quote? As I've demonstrated, he's reached new levels of "completely wrong". And to entertain the idea that the quote somehow means something other than what it says is stupid, and it makes you look like an idiot, Darth Sexy. If you or Deception wish to contest the validity of the statement, you'll have to do a lot better than this.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
And Ragnos can defeat NJO Luke? WTF? That's... absolutely ridiculous

Yes, it's idiotic and unsupported. But fanboys believe what they will. What can you do?

Originally posted by Deception
Just for the record i still believe Marka Ragnos would beat Luke Skywalker in any shape or form, but that doesn't mean i'm right, neither does it mean im wrong.

Just for the record, that whole idealogy is flawed. As with the above, you either aren't capable or can't be bothered (I'm being generous, as we both know you're not capable) of arguing that point so why bother to try to state it? "LOLZ WELL I THINK THIS WAY EVEN THOUGH ALL EVIDENCE POINTS OTHERWISE" doesn't make your opinion as legitimate or as relevant just because it's your opinion. Welcome to the real world; you are entitled and more than welcome to your beliefs. But don't, for a second, assume they have the same amount of merit as someone else's.

Originally posted by Gideon
Welcome to the real world; you are entitled and more than welcome to your beliefs. But don't, for a second, assume they have the same amount of merit as someone else's.

I mean, someone who still believes the world is flat is probably deluded. That doesn't put his/her beliefs on a lower tier than mine from an ideological standpoint, despite the fact that he/she is clearly wrong. 'Everyone's entitled to their beliefs,' etc.

Btw, the 'real world' thing? Kinda inappropriate on an online message board.

Hopefully, you'll stick to arguing the versus scenario and leave this obscenely ridiculous personal philosophy out of the equation, Faunus.

Originally posted by Faunus
That's probably the most asinine thing you've ever said here. His beliefs have just as much merit as anyone's here - keep in mind that we are arguing hypothetical battles between hypothetical characters, this isn't physics. If he tried to build and argument around that point, sure, you could claim the argument has little merit (if it sucks). But as long as Deception is simply taking a stance on something, saying 'I believe [this]', and leaving it at that, your opinion is no more valuable than his.

Incorrect. Deception is stating an opinion that isn't supported by any logic or common sense; even his really shallow attempt to contest the statement regarding Yoda's level of power was stupid. Is he entitled to his opinion? Yes, I believe I told him he was "more than welcome to it"; are his beliefs on the matter as equally valid as mine, when I have proof and logic and all he has is his personal opinion? No.

I mean, someone who still believes the world is flat is probably deluded. That doesn't put his/her beliefs on a lower tier than mine from an ideological standpoint, despite the fact that he/she is clearly wrong. 'Everyone's entitled to their beliefs,' etc.

I believe I said that he was entitled to it. I also didn't say Deception's "opinions" are lesser than mine (to suggest as much would say that he is lesser to me), but are his beliefs (on this matter) as valid? No.

Btw, the 'real world' thing? Kinda inappropriate on an online message board.

Well, by the way. We (and by that, I mean 'some of us'😉 use real world logic. The matters on which we are debating aren't applied "fake" logic for a "fake" universe. You say inappropriate? But, like Deception, you're wrong.

Stick to the fight, Faunus. Defending the Marka Ragnos brigade ended in grotesque failure a long, long time ago.

Originally posted by Gideon
Hopefully, you'll stick to arguing the versus scenario and leave this obscenely ridiculous personal philosophy out of the equation, Faunus.

Nice.

Incorrect. Deception is stating an opinion that isn't supported by any logic or common sense; even his really shallow attempt to contest the statement regarding Yoda's level of power was stupid. Is he entitled to his opinion? Yes, I believe I told him he was "more than welcome to it"; are his beliefs on the matter as equally valid as mine, when I have proof and logic and all he has is his personal opinion? No.

I believe I said that he was entitled to it. I also didn't say Deception's "opinions" are lesser than mine (to suggest as much would say that he is lesser to me), but are his beliefs (on this matter) as valid? No.

Well, by the way. We (and by that, I mean 'some of us'😉 use real world logic. The matters on which we are debating aren't applied "fake" logic for a "fake" universe. You say inappropriate? But, like Deception, you're wrong.

Stick to the fight, Faunus. Defending the Marka Ragnos brigade ended in grotesque failure a long, long time ago.

My question is, WHY is it necessary for Deception to post his beliefs an a versus forum dealing with logical, or pseudological debates? When someone makes a thread, it's for the purpose of argument. Nobody cares what someone "thinks" will happen. If you want to "think" something without validating it, take it to your livejournal.

Ladies and gentlemen, Sigmund Freud in the house! We're glad you've finally revealed yourself, after all these years, Dr. Freud. Most people think you're dead; the truth is much more insidious: your common sense has taken a beating. Back into retirement you go.

Originally posted by Faunus
'Obscenely ridiculous'? Because I don't think that you and your apparent superiority complex - cuz clearly, what applies in the 'real world' applies here - have more valuable opinions than someone else regarding something completely fictional?

Nice

This is a debating forum; the subject that we debate doesn't have any bearing on the tools with which we debate them. 'Common sense' and 'logic' are two items that people should and do use in the real world -- the world outside of the computer, Faunus -- you ever been there?

He's not arguing the point, Escape, he's stating his opinion and leaving it at that, as he made very clear. You have absolutely no right to actually attack him on the matter, although considering how bitter you've always been it shouldn't surprise me.

His opinion isn't supported by any logical basis. But, you've made it clear. Because it is his opinion it is as valid and as relevant as anyone else's, logic be damned. Why do you even bother to come here and debate, Faunus? A remarkable double standard, one that's never made an appearance before, so I'm curious as to why this particular opinion has inspired you so much.

By the way... why would I be bitter? Usually people with superiority complexes are only bitter when they lose. I didn't.

And your entire tirade on the matter is completely unnecessary, because he made no point whatsoever of trying to validate his beliefs to you - he mentioned them in passing, as an example.

He is entitled to his opinion. He's more than welcome to his opinion. But it doesn't have logical basis. No evidence to support it. Therefore it can't be right and is not as valid as the right opinion.

If this is an example of your 'real world logic,' you'd be the most backward individual I've heard of in quite some time.

You say 'backward', I say 'forward', but it doesn't matter, does it? I mean, it's my opinion, so it's automatically equal to yours.

Attacking them at every turn is getting old.

Not someone who claims to be separated from that group or not invested in them. Did I strike a nerve?

You disagree, get over it. It's not your place to tell someone that their beliefs mean less than yours when they're not arguing the point. Next you'll be calling people heretics and infidels.

He is entitled to his opinions. But this one happens to be wrong. Therefore, it's not as valid as the right one.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
My question is, WHY is it necessary for Deception to post his beliefs an a versus forum dealing with logical, or pseudological debates? When someone makes a thread, it's for the purpose of argument. Nobody cares what someone "thinks" will happen. If you want to "think" something without validating it, take it to your livejournal.

Faunus has never quite gotten his panties in a twist about an issue like this. He can deny it all he wants, but apparently it hurts his feelings for someone to reprimand someone from the Ragnos4Prez! committee.

Edit: For the record, this is exactly what I mean. This is a debating forum. You have an opinion? You debate it. Being proven wrong and still clinging to the same opinion is asinine, but you don't see me screaming at him that Deception can't think that way.

Originally posted by Gideon
Ladies and gentlemen, Sigmund Freud in the house! We're glad you've finally revealed yourself, after all these years, Dr. Freud. Most people think you're dead; the truth is much more insidious: your common sense has taken a beating. Back into retirement you go.

This is a debating forum; the subject that we debate doesn't have any bearing on the tools with which we debate them. 'Common sense' and 'logic' are two items that people should and do use in the real world -- the world outside of the computer, Faunus -- you ever been there?

His opinion isn't supported by any logical basis. But, you've made it clear. Because it is his opinion it is as valid and as relevant as anyone else's, logic be damned.

People believe in God, in case you hadn't noticed. Have they proven the existence of a higher being? No. So do you go around assaulting the religious?

Why do you even bother to come here and debate, Faunus?

A remarkable double standard, one that's never made an appearance before, so I'm curious as to why this particular opinion has inspired you so much.

By the way... why would I be bitter?

He is entitled to his opinion. He's more than welcome to his opinion. But it doesn't have logical basis. No evidence to support it. Therefore it can't be right and is not as valid as the right opinion.

You say 'backward', I say 'forward', but it doesn't matter, does it? I mean, it's my opinion, so it's automatically equal to yours.

Not someone who claims to be separated from that group or not invested in them. Did I strike a nerve?

He is entitled to his opinions. But this one happens to be wrong. Therefore, it's not as valid as the right one.

Faunus has never quite gotten his panties in a twist about an issue like this. He can deny it all he wants, but apparently it hurts his feelings for someone to reprimand someone from the Ragnos4Prez! committee.

See, you don't matter nearly enough for me to waste anymore of time arguing the semantics of you being an *******, and if this is the only way you can choose to justify me disagreeing with your overt and unnecessary desire to attack someone who still adheres to an old stance, you can join Sexy on the Ignore list.

Originally posted by Faunus
Joy, more sad attempts at humor!

You conjure a surprisingly accurate depiction of Nebaris here; when you criticise one's wit, do so in a funny way. Apparenly it's too much of an effort for you.

I could take that question literally and point out that you have nearly a thousand more posts here than I do, despite having registered four months after me.

And then I could point out that you went out and helped start two forums in an attempt to recreate this very same environment under more controlled terms and failed miserably. Seems like the best you can hope for is a perpetual stalemate.

You are dense. It's an opinion that he's not interested in debating, so leave it be.

Easy, Faunus, my ego is tender. It sometimes motivates me to point out the legendary and monumental errors in judgment that you helped breed and endorse. Criticisms tend to leave people wide open for attacks like that. This is a debating forum, anything and everything is suspect. He used to debate it all the time; he doesn't want to anymore because he knows he can't prove it and he'd look like an ass trying to.

People believe in God, in case you hadn't noticed. Have they proven the existence of a higher being? No. So do you go around assaulting the religious?

You're confusing faith and logic. Faith is belief in the absence of proof. Hell, my own preacher (before he was dismissed) said that by today's standards, it is not logical to believe in God because you can't prove He exists (I guess I know why he was dismissed...). Meanwhile, I can prove that Palpatine and Luke Skywalker are stronger than Marka Ragnos. Deception can't disprove that. I, nor anyone else, can disprove God's existence.

I 'debate' with people who are interested in debating certain topics, and since Deception clearly isn't interested in arguing that facet of his beliefs, you need to leave it be. If he wants to assert his beliefs as fact, as you would love him to do, that's a different story.

We already know why Deception doesn't. Because he can't prove it. He can't even make a valiant effort. This is a debating forum.

Ah. The implications begin. Of course, I've been expecting this.

When you get your holier-than-thou shtick into gear, Ragnos and the Ancient Sith are always directly tied in.

I really don't know. See, I tend not to hold grudges against people over the internet, but you apparently don't feel the same way when it comes to Janus and the pro-Ancient argument.

You've yet to prove why I'd have a grudge against them. I certainly recall being told that my name was brought up at EoD when I wasn't around; hell, Janus mocks the pro-Sidious argument in his signature. I guess he's every bit as bitter as you try to make me out as.

Again, God.

You can neither prove nor disprove God's existence. I can prove that Skywalker and Palpatine are stronger than Ragnos and he (Deception) can't disprove that.

There it is.

See, you don't matter nearly enough for me to waste anymore of time arguing the semantics of you being an *******, and if this is the only way you can choose to justify me disagreeing with your overt and unnecessary desire to attack someone who still adheres to an old stance, you can join Sexy on the Ignore list.

Faunus, we've had numerous disagreements about this before, and in the end, it doesn't matter. We still banter, we still debate, we always moved on. Do you know what putting me on ignore does? It proves me right. It proves that you've snapped and you can't handle the fact that that the premise of the Ragnos4Prez! is utterly stupid.

If you want to prove me right, go ahead and put me on ignore. Unlike you, I'm not overtly sensitive about that sort of thing. Although, I guess, I don't need to be. My whole opposition to that misguided belief was proven right.

... wow.

And Faunus, I just claimed I think his opinion is 'ridiculous', and unsupported. Sure, he's entitled to his own opinion- but, I could go ahead and say that 'In my opinion, RotS Sidious is superior to NJO Luke!". That would be a ridiculous opinion. Sure, I'm entitled to it, but I have a feeling certain people will go ahead and call me "Z0mg Sidious fanboy!". Would you? Be honest.

And you know what? I'll understand these people who would call me a Sidious fanboy. Sorry, some opinions are simply purely ridiculous- I'm certain Gideon, Lightsnake and co. have already displayed Deception why he is wrong multiple times in the past- the fact that he would cling to an opinion that's clearly untrue is ridiculous. People usually let debates change their opinion- for example, before we started debating about RoT Bane vs. Sidious, I thought Sidious would certainly take a fight. Now I think Bane has a very solid chance. Faunus- if, after our debate, I would say "Lol you disproved most of my points but I still think Sidious is superior in every imaginable way!", you would insult me, too. Rightly so, too.

Also note, I just called his opinion 'ridiculous'. I didn't insult him personally in a way. Hell, I don't even know enough to call him a 'fanboy' or something like that. I'd love to debate with him as to why I think his opinion is ridiculous- but sure, he's certainly entitled to his opinion. I'm certain you've called claims ridiculous in the past, too, Faunus. I suppos my 'ridiculous' claim was possibly not correctly placed because he stated it was his opinion- but, sorry. Some opinions are plainly ridiculous. It's more than plausible some of my opinions are ridiculous, too. I'm sure people would call me out if I said an opinion is ridiculous.

And lolz. Ragnos4prez. Classic.

I caught this before I logged on.

And then I could point out that you went out and helped start two forums in an attempt to recreate this very same environment under more controlled terms and failed miserably. Seems like the best you can hope for is a perpetual stalemate.

It sometimes motivates me to point out the legendary and monumental errors in judgment that you helped breed and endorse.

When you get your holier-than-thou shtick into gear, Ragnos and the Ancient Sith are always directly tied in.

Faunus, we've had numerous disagreements about this before

Do you know what putting me on ignore does? It proves me right. It proves that you've snapped and you can't handle the fact that that the premise of the Ragnos4Prez! is utterly stupid.

Interpret it however you want - that's the truth.

@Crimzon: I wasn't actually attacking you or anything, and you're certainly entitled to your own [backed] stance on the subject. But he's not even attempting to argue it with you; he simply stated what he believed and left it at that, so I think it's unnecessary to go after to him for it. To my knowledge, I've called claims that others have made ridiculous in a debating scenario, where both myself and the maker of the claim were willing to argue in favor of our respective stances.

Awfully sensitive and selective response for someone who isn't 'invested' in the goings on of this forum.

Why must people here always ignore the fact that a no-name Ancient Sith (who lived during the time of both Sadow and Ragnos) was able to wipe out the life of an entire planet with a single impromptu but controlled Force attack? Really, if that's the kind of power that someone who was both subservient to the two mentioned DLOTSs and confirmed to be weaker held, you can only imagine the kind of power that Ragnos, who was superior to all of them, wielded, and I can certainly see a case being made for him at least rivalling someone like Luke Skywalker in ability, and possibly overcoming.

Originally posted by Taven
Why must people here always ignore the fact that a no-name Ancient Sith (who lived during the time of both Sadow and Ragnos) was able to wipe out the life of an entire planet with a single impromptu but controlled Force attack? Really, if that's the kind of power that someone who was both subservient to the two mentioned DLOTSs and confirmed to be weaker held, you can only imagine the kind of power that Ragnos, who was superior to all of them, wielded, and I can certainly see a case being made for him at least rivalling someone like Luke Skywalker in ability, and possibly overcoming.

Hello, Nebaris.

Already reported. Toodles Noobaris🙂

Reported for what?

Originally posted by Taven
Reported for what?

You know its unbelievable that you try to come back so many times, hell you need medical and psychological help son.

Despite what is generally percieved as Nebaris' insanity ( I don't really see it, but there you go), He makes a good point and one which I've myself got stumped on. That unknown sith's decimation of an entire world's surface is extraordinary to say the least and I want to see someone try too discredit it.
I'd also like too know what the hell all the rivalry is between the Sidious fans and the Ragnos fans. I actually know nothing about Ragnos, but I've heard good things. Mabye someone coild post a link to a relavant argument becuase I'm really confused.