U.S. Supreme Court: Child porn is not protected speech

Started by Schecter3 pages

U.S. Supreme Court: Child porn is not protected speech

seems pretty cut and dry, right?

http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/05/19/scotus.porn/index.htm

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- The Supreme Court on Monday upheld a law aimed at preventing child pornography, ruling a provision dealing with "pandering" illicit material does not violate constitutional protections on free speech.

Justice Antonin Scalia wrote for the majority, calling Internet child porn a "threat."

The 7-2 ruling rejected suggestions the law is overly broad, and will stifle a range of expressive or artistic material that is not obscene.

The case involves Michael Williams, convicted in a Florida federal court for promoting child pornography on the Internet.

A 2003 federal law made it a crime not only to produce and possess child porn, but also to "pander" material, conveying the belief that material contains minors engaged in sexually explicit conduct. The pandering provision covers anyone who "advertises, promotes, presents, distributes, or solicits" this material.

Justice Antonin Scalia, writing for the majority, said Congress' latest attempt to deal with this "threat" was legally "successful."

The "Protect" Act was Congress' latest attempt to control graphic images on the Internet. Previous efforts were struck down by the high court on First Amendment issues.

As part of a 2004 sting operation, an undercover Secret Service agent (using the screen name "Lisa--n--Miami"😉 communicated with Williams in an Internet chat room. Williams allegedly wrote, "Dad of toddler has 'good' pics of her an (sic) me for swap of your toddler pics, or live cam." He posted nonpornographic photos of a young girl and claimed he had "hc," or hard-core, kiddie pictures, prosecutors contend.

The man then allegedly posted photos of youngsters involved in "sexually explicit conduct," according to court records. Twenty-two other child porn images were found on his home computer.

A federal appeals court upheld a possession conviction against Williams, but threw out the separate soliciting charge, which carried a five-year mandatory minimum sentence. A three-judge panel concluded the provision was "substantially overbroad and vague," and that "non-commercial, non-inciteful promotion of illegal child pornography, even if repugnant, is protected free speech." In other words, the judges said merely talking about child porn is not necessarily criminal.

"Child pornography harms and debases the most defenseless of our citizens," he said. "This court held unconstitutional Congress' previous attempt to meet this new threat, and Congress responded with a carefully crafted attempt to eliminate the First Amendment problems we [earlier] identified."

The Bush administration urged the high court to accept the case, saying the overall impact of the law was being held "hostage to a few hypothetical scenarios."

Solicitor General Paul Clement argued to the justices that not only is promoting real child porn against the law, but "speech that falsely proposes an unlawful transaction is likewise unprotected." Clement announced last week that he is stepping down from his post next month.

But during oral arguments, six justices offered specific examples they said might unfairly target someone who was engaged in lawful, artistic or editorial free speech. Among them were mainstream movies such as "Lolita," "Traffic," and "Titanic," all of which depicted scenarios in which underage girls were engaging in simulated sex.

Justices David Souter and Ruth Bader Ginsburg dissented.

Souter wrote that a double standard exists since those pandering images not involving minors engaging in simulated sex could now be prosecuted, but possession of those images would not be subject to prosecution.

"I believe that maintaining the First Amendment protection of expression we have previously held to cover fake child pornography requires a limit to the law's criminalization of pandering proposals," Souter said.

The justices five years ago struck down a 1996 federal law dealing with child porn, giving legal protection to youthful sexual images that were nether obscene nor involved sexual abuse. In its ruling, the high court said thinking dirty thoughts is not necessarily criminal, and the government cannot "suppress lawful speech as the means to suppress unlawful speech."

Most of the 2003 Protect Act's provision have survived judicial scrutiny.

A coalition of free speech and commercial interests were supporting Williams' constitutional claims, including the Free Speech Coalition, online media retailer Amazon.com and National Coalition Against Censorship.

On the other side, 27 states backed the United States, as well as a range of child advocacy groups.

(bold text to hilight debate)

so could this be a slippery slope? is lolota child porn?

how about munch's 'puberty'?

too many examples to list. feel free to post your own. point is though, can we trust our government to know where to properly draw the line?

discuss

Lolita is a very good movie, is what it is.

I really don't know what they hope to achieve. For a moment, let's consider that maybe they somehow completely dissolve any/all child porn so that none exists anymore. All that means is people are no longer video taping themselves raping children. They're still doing it, it just isn't being viewed after the fact.

Point is, they should go after the people actually raping children, rather than those who may have watched it video taped, regardless of whether or not they've actually DONE anything.

i guess their argument would be supply and demand...but i doubt ecomonics is going through someone's head when they rape a child.

Originally posted by Schecter
i guess their argument would be supply and demand...but i doubt ecomonics is going through someone's head when they rape a child.

I doubt that most pedophiles are into it for the money.

Originally posted by Schecter
i guess their argument would be supply and demand...but i doubt ecomonics is going through someone's head when they rape a child.

That's the thing, though. The people who make these videos aren't out there going "you know, I'm going to make a movie" and then decide to rape a child for that movie. They are going to rape a child either way. Videotaping it is probably an afterthought.

It's a good thing the supreme court is busy re-affirming the obvious. Just think how many Anna Nicole Smith cases are going unheard.

I'm actually reading Lolita right now.

I gotta see Titanic.

I won't post the pics (I'm at work atm) but Robert Mapplethorpe did a bunch of underage nude photographs which landed him in a bunch of trouble (or at least the people who tried to exhibit them). Well done stuff, and the models have been subsequently interviewed and are not against it.

Touchy subject, the more society clamps up about this type of stuff, the more "artisitic" it will become to push the boundary. Didn't that hanna montana chick just do something similar (if less artistically motivated?).

I think Backfire said everything that needs to be said though. There arepeople out there who do really abuse children, and while the artistic stuff might push boundaries, it rarely if ever could be considered "abuse" in the intention of the law, if it does qualify in the word, and taxpayer dollars are much better spent on attacking the real threats to a nation's children.

:edit: wrong thread

Child porn is NOT "protected speech". NAMBLA must die and so must all the liberal scum who coddle sick perverts and other...types. Pedophiles don't deserve rights.

Originally posted by UKR
Child porn is NOT "protected speech". NAMBLA must die and so must all the liberal scum who coddle sick perverts and other...types. Pedophiles don't deserve rights.

http://photobucket.com/image/motivator/haleypiglet/junk%20pics/motivatorpussy.jpg?o=1095

well, there is a difference between artistic depiction and PORNOGRAPHY. any1 who has seen the blue lagoon would probably know what im talking about. furthermore, SHUD this be applied to art as such, since it has no real actors playing the part?

Originally posted by inimalist
I won't post the pics (I'm at work atm) but Robert Mapplethorpe did a bunch of underage nude photographs which landed him in a bunch of trouble

Perhaps more sad is the fact that his irreverent usage of the image of Jesus landed him in more trouble; at least when it comes to public outrage.

The well-managed image of a 14 year old in the nude can be argued as art, depending on the situation in which he or she is photographed. A naked 14 year old girl standing on a beach with her mother is much more approaching art than a pregnant 14 year old walking out of a closed-door polygamist sect in the state of Texas, clothed from head to toe.

Originally posted by UKR
Child porn is NOT "protected speech". NAMBLA must die and so must all the liberal scum who coddle sick perverts and other...types. Pedophiles don't deserve rights.

you bumped this thread and didnt bother to read the topic.
because you are "reply to thread title" retard i suggest you get aids to compliment your fail.

Originally posted by BackFire
Lolita is a very good movie, is what it is.

I really don't know what they hope to achieve. For a moment, let's consider that maybe they somehow completely dissolve any/all child porn so that none exists anymore. All that means is people are no longer video taping themselves raping children. They're still doing it, it just isn't being viewed after the fact.

Point is, they should go after the people actually raping children, rather than those who may have watched it video taped, regardless of whether or not they've actually DONE anything.

Arresting those people who do have this material on the computer could help prevent future crimes. Those people who are looking at it are going to do it sooner or later.

Originally posted by holacik
Arresting those people who do have this material on the computer could help prevent future crimes. Those people who are looking at it are going to do it sooner or later.

That's a wild assumption.

Does everyone who likes rollercoasters get involved in a highspee chase?
Does everyone who watches Rambo go on a killing spree?
Does everyone who plays D&D become convinced they have magical powers?
Does everyone who tries to burn an ant become a killer?

Legal systems are based on actions not what might happen for a reason.

Originally posted by holacik
Arresting those people who do have this material on the computer could help prevent future crimes. Those people who are looking at it are going to do it sooner or later.

😂

I listen to rap. I'm going to go kill someone today!

I play GTA IV! Time to go get some hookers.

I snipe well in Halo!

You see how this is going. 💃

gta taught me to always kill hookers so that i can get my money back

Originally posted by holacik
Arresting those people who do have this material on the computer could help prevent future crimes. Those people who are looking at it are going to do it sooner or later.

Why is it not illegal to watch a rape video or a murder video, then? Watching that shows the same intent (I.E. none). It's as if jacking off to rape is ok, unless the victim is under 18. Pretty much just as bad.

It's the only law based on the slipper slope fallacy, and it's fascinating.