Yoda vs. Caedus

Originally posted by Lord Knightfa11
I am not seriously ready to go along with this. The most powerful are the ones Lucas centered his movies around, and Lucas meant for it to be this way, period.

Not necessarily.

Darth Bane, Exar Kun, Kyle Katarn, Kyp Durron, Revan, and Darth Nihilus could give, at least, an extremely hard time to the characters who 'Lucas centered his movies around', and quite possibly even defeat some of them.

I believe that in the ROTS novel yoda was described as the most powerful foe the darkside had ever seen

Yes, he was stated to be that very same thing, but this is LOTF, which takes place after the statement. Therefore, it doesn't apply.

Originally posted by Elite Hunter
To be fair to Caedus, he was distracted by having to protect Allana. such as how Sing tried blow Allana out of her hiding place with a thermal detonator so Jacen had to stop the detonator which did allow sing to gain the upper hand over Jacen, then he wanted unleash force lightning on Sing when she was in no position to block it but Allana came out of her hiding spot at that moment and Jacen didn't want to expose her to the darkside by using force lightning which could have ended the duel. Then Allana kept distracting Jacen the rest of the duel and getting in the way.
In regards to the any given sunday clause, Maul lost Obiwan when he should have won, Luke shouldn't have been able to defeat Vader either. Plus Jaina didn't beat him in a straight up lightsaber duel either time the fought.

I'll get back to the luke duel later today.

very good point on the Aurra Sing fight. I guess we could say: he almost lost to Mara too, i forgot to bring that up. In fact, he ALMOST lost every fight he was ever involved in. Defeating Katarn so easily was an abberation, which depended on special circumstances as well. (just as the Aurra Sing fight did)

However, this quote from Inferno should help back up my interpretation of the fight with luke: It is made clear that luke did win, from an omniscient narrator, or Caedus (it probably counts as both)

"Luke had BEATEN him. Luke had just kept coming despite his injuries. He had inflicted more damage on Caedus than he had suffered himself, and he had even escaped teh garrote before Ben struck. In fact, it was probabaly that attack that had saved Caedus's life. Nothing else could have shocked Luke out of his battle rage--only the sight of ben slipping so far to the dark side."
"

And i know you are going to bring up Luke's surprise attack on him, and its a good point, BUT.. wasn't that Jacen's fault? i mean, Ben was right there, telling him that Luke was on the ship, coming for him (pretty stupid of Ben, btw) and Jacen just laughed at him. Plus, the pain inflicted on Jacen, all the way through LOTF, seemed to do nothign but make him stronger, so mebbe we could argue Luke's surprise attack on Caedus actually was an unfair advantage at the beginnnig for caedus.

Originally posted by Lt. Valerian
Yes, he was stated to be that very same thing, but this is [B]LOTF, which takes place after the statement. Therefore, it doesn't apply. [/B]

Yes, but he was a match for "the most powerful sith" (g-cannon) and george lucas never gave a time limit, he didn't say "in star wars history" thereofore, yoda=the most powerful sith, which means the most powerful sith is even more powerful (OMG!!) then caedus.

Originally posted by Lord Knightfa11
thereofore, yoda=the most powerful sith, which means the most powerful sith

Que?

And actually considering that it says "had ever [n]seen[/b]"indicates that it is subject to being over ridden by new material. If it said in, say, a guide book that "Yoda is the most powerful enemy the dark side has ever seen. [/b] then it'd be diffiferent, also depends on when the narraration is taking place I guess.

Originally posted by truejedi
very good point on the Aurra Sing fight. I guess we could say: he almost lost to Mara too, i forgot to bring that up. In fact, he ALMOST lost every fight he was ever involved in. Defeating Katarn so easily was an abberation, which depended on special circumstances as well.(just as the Aurra Sing fight did)

However, this quote from Inferno should help back up my interpretation of the fight with luke: It is made clear that luke did win, from an omniscient narrator, or Caedus (it probably counts as both)

"Luke had BEATEN him. Luke had just kept coming despite his injuries. He had inflicted more damage on Caedus than he had suffered himself, and he had even escaped teh garrote before Ben struck. In fact, it was probabaly that attack that had saved Caedus's life. Nothing else could have shocked Luke out of his battle rage--only the sight of ben slipping so far to the dark side."
"

And i know you are going to bring up Luke's surprise attack on him, and its a good point, BUT.. wasn't that Jacen's fault? i mean, Ben was right there, telling him that Luke was on the ship, coming for him (pretty stupid of Ben, btw) and Jacen just laughed at him. Plus, the pain inflicted on Jacen, all the way through LOTF, seemed to do nothign but make him stronger, so mebbe we could argue Luke's surprise attack on Caedus actually was an unfair advantage at the beginnnig for caedus.

I'm not going to bring up the fact that Luke surprised him. Luke would have won regardless. I just wanted to point out that Aurra would have been tooled if Allana didn't get in the way. Besides for the fact that I'm not even saying that Caedus would win this fight but stands a chance to.

As for the Katarn fight I will like to mention that Caedus wasn't healed from the Luke fight. Though I will say that Caedus can taking a beating and still put up a hell of a fight like no other.

Originally posted by Lord Knightfa11
Yes, but he was a match for "the most powerful sith" (g-cannon) and george lucas never gave a time limit, he didn't say "in star wars history" thereofore, yoda=the most powerful sith, which means the most powerful sith is even more powerful (OMG!!) then caedus.

You're contradicting yourself right there: that is exactly my point, it did not say "in star wars history", hence, it doesn't apply to future eras. If it had said he was a match for "the most powerful Sith in star wars history" then you would be right and I would shut up, but it doesn't.
And no, don't get me wrong, I'm not saying he isn't a match for incredibly powerful Sith, I'm just pointing out that any quote similar to those does not apply to any future era.

Anyhow, this is all bunkered down by that fact that Luke Skywalker is the most devastating foe the darkness has ever seen, which proves the quote was only referring to Sith coming before Yoda.

And pure common sense.

Yoda was most powerful powerful lightsider to face "the darkness" prior to Luke, that is what the quote means in the end.

The exact quote from the ROTS novel is This truth: that he, the avatar of light, Supreme Master of the Jedi Order, the fiercest, most implacable, most devastatingly powerful foe the darkness had ever known... just-didn't-have it.He'd never had it. He had lost before he started.He had lost before he was born.

I don't really understand that. When I read it, it made sense in context, but is it really saying that he is incapable of winning? or that the jedi in general needed to survive and adapt?

Here is the very next line

The Sith had changed. The Sith had grown, had adapted, had invested a thousand years' intensive study into every aspect of not only the Force but Jedi lore itself, in preparation for exactly this day. The Sith had remade themselves.

They had become new.

While the Jedi-The Jedi had spent that same millennium training to refight the last war.

The new Sith could not be destroyed with a lightsaber; they could not be burned away by any torch of the Force. The brighter his light, the darker their shadow. How could one win a war against the dark, when war itself had become the dark's own weapon?

He knew, at that instant, that this insight held the hope of the galaxy. But if he fell here, that hope would die with him. Hmmm, Yoda thought. A problem this is . . .

Basically it means that the will of the force was on the sith's side and the jedi were destined to fall.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Sabers: Draw.Caedus, simply becuase he is a demonstrated beast with a blade, would in my mind realistically stand a fair chance against Yoda. But Yoda is also great as shown by his fights with Dooku and Sidious.

Force: The only offensive techniques that Yoda could use would be to either push J into the Rancour pit, reflect his lightning and chuck residents around. Jacen is strong enough to block all of those and then reply with some healthy Sith violence. I'd give them about equal power.

All-out: Caedus.

Same would go for the rematch.

This.

Caedus=Yoda; is why Caedus was able to give LotF Luke, hell.

I think that one of the reasons Caedus is considered to be such a powerful Sith Lord for his generation is because of his esoteric force abilities and the six year vacation he took to investigate force abilities that are unknown to people of the new jedi order.

Now you have Yoda who is a Jedi Grandmaster whose lived for 800 years which gives him plenty of years to study up on jedi/sith lore...specifically how to counter dangerous sith powers. I highly doubt that Caedus can utilize any of his unknown force abilities without Yoda at least being aware of them.

Even Luke who wasn't fully aware of what Caedus knew was able to stop him with ease.

Yoda?

He takes the force aspect with no trouble.

If Caedus was given more time to develop as a Sith Lord he would have been truly formidable but he wasn't...

Originally posted by Ofi-Wan
I think that one of the reasons Caedus is considered to be such a powerful Sith Lord for his generation is because of his esoteric force abilities and the six year vacation he took to investigate force abilities that are unknown to people of the [b]new jedi order.

Now you have Yoda who is a Jedi Grandmaster whose lived for 800 years which gives him plenty of years to study up on jedi/sith lore...specifically how to counter dangerous sith powers. I highly doubt that Caedus can utilize any of his unknown force abilities without Yoda at least being aware of them.
[/B]

Yoda knew Force Absorb - but I highly doubt that he had trained specifically to combat any Sith.

He just knew the ability and had skill with it - but nothing more; hence Sidious still being able to beat him, despite it.

Originally posted by Ofi-Wan

Even Luke who wasn't fully aware of what Caedus knew was able to stop him with ease.

No - not quite so much. I don't know if you've read their fight - but Caedus gave Luke hell, even holding him down temporarily with TK, and being able to go toe-to-toe in sabers with Luke, who was at that point close to being a Force God.

That's why, as Nephthys so astutely put it, Caedus definitely has what it takes to battle Yoda - and defeat the little green Jedi Master, who is far weaker than Luke by comparison.

Originally posted by Ofi-Wan

Yoda?

He takes the force aspect with no trouble.

No. Again, Caedus was able to temporarily hold down LotF Luke, who could crush Yoda into a tiny drop of slime.

Caedus has enough of a unique skill-set and strength to definitely go toe-to-toe and nullify whatever Yoda throws at him - killing Yoda eventually.

Originally posted by Ofi-Wan

If Caedus was given more time to develop as a Sith Lord he would have been truly formidable but he wasn't...

Being able to kill Peak Mara Jade, defeat Peak Kyle Katarn and give Force God Luke hell, constitutes as truly formidable.

Certainly just as, or more formidable than Yoda, who he would kill.

Hmmm I wonder if Caedus will even have existed in the Sequel Universe..

Caedus only beat Mara with the help of poison she wasn't expecting because she didn't know how far he'd go to win/keep his secret.

Scenario 1: Cadeus narrowly and I mean narrowly
Scenario 2: Yoda by a slim crevice of a margin
Scenario 3: Complete draw.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Scenario 1: Cadeus narrowly and I mean narrowly
Scenario 2: Yoda by a slim crevice of a margin
Scenario 3: Complete draw.

That's what I think.

Cadeus=Yoda evenly.

That's why Caedus gave Luke hell - and we all know Yoda would give current Luke hell, but end up dying in the end.

So we're, therefore, assuming that Caedus>Yoda>Sidious at sabers? Alrighty then...

Originally posted by Ascendancy
So we're, therefore, assuming that Caedus>Yoda>Sidious at sabers? Alrighty then...

Is that surprising? Caedus is like Mace Windu if he ever gave into the Dark Side, who I'd imagine being above even Yoda in sabers.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Is that surprising? Caedus is like Mace Windu if he ever gave into the Dark Side, who I'd imagine being above even Yoda in sabers.

Mace already uses the Dark Side to boost his power.

I think the reason Caedus maybe above Yoda in Sabers is that he has more raw power than even Yoda plus Mace's Shatterpoint talent.