Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Mace already uses the Dark Side to boost his power.I think the reason Caedus maybe above Yoda in Sabers is that he has more raw power than even Yoda plus Mace's Shatterpoint talent.
Yes he has to enjoy combat in order to use Vaapad but he never truly falls to the Dark Side. Caedus implores the full power of the Dark Side as well as uses Shatterpoints.
Originally posted by Pwned
Where does it say Caedus has more raw power than Yoda? I don't see that happening. So far as I know, only Anakin has been confirmed to, though Luke also likely does. I would put Caedus at a power level near Mace. This is in raw power, of course.
I'm sure we're told somewhere he grew more powerful than Vader.
Originally posted by DARTH POWERI am sure you understand that I would like the direct quote if possible.
I'm sure we're told somewhere he grew more powerful than Vader.
Plus, Vader never really equaled Yoda in the Force. Raw power itself can't change. It was more than likely referring to mastery, while Caedus never could have equaled Yoda in that. I honestly doubt even Luke equaled him in that.
Originally posted by Pwned
I am sure you understand that I would like the direct quote if possible.Plus, Vader never really equaled Yoda in the Force. Raw power itself can't change. It was more than likely referring to mastery, while Caedus never could have equaled Yoda in that. I honestly doubt even Luke equaled him in that.
It was on the Cover-flap of Invincible, I believe. It's a blurb but from what I've heard, the authors meant it seriously.
The blurb stated that Jacen had now surpassed Darth Vader in terms of power.
In terms of raw power (developed), Vader not only equaled Yoda in terms of the Force - he surpassed him.
Anakin has a MC Count even greater than Yoda - and even while trapped in the suit, with a decaying body, Vader could do things with the Force on par with Yoda - crushing a Battle Tank as if it were a tin-can, for instance.
If you're wondering whether Caedus could equal Yoda in raw power? Probably; very likely.
I would say Caedus, from what we've seen of his feats, is equaled to Yoda's abilities in most respects - Even, as it were.
What Caedus surpasses Yoda in, is lightsaber-swordsmanship, though. Definitely.
And of course, Luke is far beyond Yoda, in Force strength. Much more raw power.
Yoda is attributed by Star Wars Insider as probably the greatest swordsman in the history of the Jedi Order and is, per the Clone Wars Character Encyclopedia, a master of all 7 forms of lightsaber combat. I have an easier time believing Caedus is Yoda's equal or superior in the Force than I do as a swordsman.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Yoda is attributed by Star Wars Insider as probably the greatest swordsman in the history of the Jedi Order and is, per the Clone Wars Character Encyclopedia, a master of all 7 forms of lightsaber combat. I have an easier time believing Caedus is Yoda's equal or superior in the Force than I do as a swordsman.
I wonder when that was stated - Mace for example, is probably superior to Yoda in that area.
The Caedus event may have altered the validity of that statement, anyway.
And I'm sure Luke has far surpassed Yoda, in terms of being the greatest swordsman in the history of the Order.
Originally posted by Rookwood
I wonder when that was stated - Mace for example, is probably superior to Yoda in that area.
No relevant source I'm aware of suggests Mace is Yoda's equal, let alone superior, in lightsaber combat. In fact, all of them (from Yoda: Dark Rendezvous to Labyrinth of Evil) suggest otherwise.
Originally posted by Rookwood
The Caedus event may have altered the validity of that statement, anyway.
No doubt, but Caedus doesn't have the feats to compete with Yoda, IMHO.
Originally posted by Rookwood
And I'm sure Luke has far surpassed Yoda, in terms of being the greatest swordsman in the history of the Order.
I'd say Luke surpassed Yoda in both realms, but "far"? To be honest, I don't see Yoda struggling with Lumiya.
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
What are people basing that Luke was the better swordsman that Yoda..
I'm guessing you haven't read the New Jedi Order series, or Fate of the Jedi?
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Was it ever stated was his count was in comparison to Yoda?
Luke's? He's Annie's son, so his count is likely the same, or higher - evidence pointing to higher, obviously, given the insane things he's done, that make Yoda look weak in comparison.
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Further was it ever stated what Mace's or Caedus count was?
No, but it's irellevent, because it's very likely they were close to Yoda's, anyway - close enough to rival or match him in power.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
No relevant source I'm aware of suggests Mace is Yoda's equal, let alone superior, in lightsaber combat. In fact, all of them (from Yoda: Dark Rendezvous to Labyrinth of Evil) suggest otherwise.
The Mace-Sidious duel was pure lightsaber-swordsmanship - and Mace had Sidious defeated and close to death.
Whereas Yoda's fight with Sidious involved Yoda moving around more for an advantage and using a lot Force power/technique, in the proccess - and he still couldn't defeat Sidious.
That alone proves that Mace was Yoda's equal or likely, superior in lightsaber-combat.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
No doubt, but Caedus doesn't have the feats to compete with Yoda, IMHO.
Been a while since I read those books - but Caedus momentarily holding down a Force God Luke with TK, matching him in sabers, etc - is good enough to show he's at least equal.
(His esoteric Flow-walking and Electric Judgement, aside)
Not superior, but equal with Yoda.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
I'd say Luke surpassed Yoda in both realms, but "far"? To be honest, I don't see Yoda struggling with Lumiya.
Well, I do remember Luke moving his lightsaber so fast in The Unifying Force (NJO) that it looked like 20 lightsabers were dancing around, cutting enemies up.
He's probably considerably more skilled than Yoda in sabers, now.
Rookwood
The Mace-Sidious duel was pure lightsaber-swordsmanship - and Mace had Sidious defeated and close to death.Whereas Yoda's fight with Sidious involved Yoda moving around more for an advantage and using a lot Force power/technique, in the proccess - and he still couldn't defeat Sidious.
That alone proves that Mace was Yoda's equal or likely, superior in lightsaber-combat.
Mace matched Sidious due to the metaphysical advantages afforded by Vaapad against dark siders (again, shitty writing courtesy of Stover handing Lucas a creative saving throw), an advantage that would not be present in a fight against Yoda. In other words, had it been Yoda there instead of Sidious, Mace would have went down.
Rookwood
Been a while since I read those books - but Caedus momentarily holding down a Force God Luke with TK, matching him in sabers, etc - is good enough to show he's at least equal.(His esoteric Flow-walking and Electric Judgement, aside)
Not superior, but equal with Yoda.
Luke is not a Force God. Luke has moments of utter godhood, but the times Caedus held his own against Luke were times in which Luke was being nerfed. For example, when Luke is calm, he can (and did!) pin Caedus to his chair without effort. When they clashed again, Luke pinned Caedus and began to dismantle his starfighter.
Only when Luke actively courted battle did Caedus hold his own. When Luke's serious, Caedus is mincemeat.
Rookwood
Well, I do remember Luke moving his lightsaber so fast in The Unifying Force (NJO) that it looked like 20 lightsabers were dancing around, cutting enemies up.He's probably considerably more skilled than Yoda in sabers, now.
Luke at his best is better than Yoda at his best, no doubt, but consistently, Luke is not vastly superior to Yoda.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Mace matched Sidious due to the metaphysical advantages afforded by Vaapad against dark siders (again, shitty writing courtesy of Stover handing Lucas a creative saving throw), an advantage that would not be present in a fight against Yoda. In other words, had it been Yoda there instead of Sidious, Mace would have went down.
Actually, as DARTH POWER has also stated, Vapaad works by channeling an enemy's darkness into a weapon of the light - but it also channels the user's darkness into a weapon of the light.
It goes both ways.
Mace would have his natural connection to the Light side to feed off of (Already very strong) and also a connection to the Dark side to feed off of (Bolstering the power he already has.)
He would also maintain the speed advantage Vapaad would give him, and the deadly technique of the style itself would help to close the gap.
Mace would win; it would just be very close.
Also, given that Yoda needs space to maneuver around, to make up for physical short-comings, if he and Mace had been fighting in the office, eventually, Mace would have had him cornered (In a pure sword-duel) and would have cut him down.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Luke is not a Force God. Luke has moments of utter godhood, but the times Caedus held his own against Luke were times in which Luke was being nerfed. For example, when Luke is calm, he can (and did!) pin Caedus to his chair without effort. When they clashed again, Luke pinned Caedus and began to dismantle his starfighter.Only when Luke actively courted battle did Caedus hold his own. When Luke's serious, Caedus is mincemeat.
I remember Caedus temporarily holding Luke down as well, at one point - and then rising slowly as he did, because he was under strain to keep Luke down.
But yeah, Caedus did really well, all things considered.
Also, his defeat of both Peak Mara Jade and Kyle Katarn, also showcase the fact that he's at least equal to Yoda.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Luke at his best is better than Yoda at his best, no doubt, but consistently, Luke is not vastly superior to Yoda.
What are his lastest lightsaber-feats in FotJ? I know they were uber in NJO.