Originally posted by PeachI always thought it was a bit the point. That the old Jedi Council was too stubborn and blind to the feelings of people so it kinda brought its own destruction about.
Speaking of the Order being stupid...one day I got bored and started psychoanalyzing the Jedi Code. They really do set people up to fall to the Dark Side, what with their whole "no attachments, no emotions" thing. That's very unhealthy for a person's mental state.
Originally posted by Bardock42
I always thought it was a bit the point. That the old Jedi Council was too stubborn and blind to the feelings of people so it kinda brought its own destruction about.
No!
The whole lesson of the PT is that the Council- and the Order- was absolutely right!
Not entirely sure what you rpoint is then, lana. Seems entirely reasonable to me, so long as you are trained to it. It's just a rehash of certain spiritual beliefs which work out fine.
The whole essence of GL's approach to the matter is the danger of selfishness and attachment. Yoda specifically tells Anakin about how he has to let go of his fear of others dying or it would consume him.
Anakin ignores all the lessons he has been taught in favour of his own selfish desires created by his attachment for Padme. Hence he falls to the Dark Side- precisely as the Council warns people against.
That remains as true after the event as it was before. Attachment is lethal to a Jedi. Even Anakin himself said it in AOTC.
Originally posted by Ushgarak
The whole essence of GL's approach to the matter is the danger of selfishness and attachment. Yoda specifically tells Anakin about how he has to let go of his fear of others dying or it would consume him.Anakin ignores all the lessons he has been taught in favour of his own selfish desires created by his attachment for Padme. Hence he falls to the Dark Side- precisely as the Council warns people against.
That remains as true after the event as it was before. Attachment is lethal to a Jedi. Even Anakin himself said it in AOTC.
Hmm, I agree that the Council was right about attachements being a problem, I thought though that the problem was that it doesn't really fit the nature of people, which is why some Jedi fall.
Originally posted by Ushgarak
Which is why the Council refuses to train anyone out of infancy because their instinct for attachment will already be formed.Hence Yoda's opposition to training Anakin, and also hence why in my game all Outsiders are Dark Siders.
You are probably right about the PT, I assume that my earlier opinion was mostly influenced by EU writing...which doesn't really care too much about the purity of Jedi.
The EU muddies the waters considerably. I have not yer personally encountered an EU point of view on the Jedi, tjhe Dark Side or the Force that seems in any way to have paid attention to anything GL has said. To be fair, GL is extremely bad at explaining it (you shouldn't have to turn to his interviews, ot should all be in the films), but if I was writing a book (or creating a huge background setting in KOTOR- looking at te nonsense youy said about love in that game, Bioware!) I'd make the damn effort to understand the person's universe thsat I was writing in.
Originally posted by Ushgarak
No!The whole lesson of the PT is that the Council- and the Order- was absolutely right!
Not entirely sure what you rpoint is then, lana. Seems entirely reasonable to me, so long as you are trained to it. It's just a rehash of certain spiritual beliefs which work out fine.
Well, yeah, properly trained. Pretty obvious that if anything goes amiss in that training that it's going to turn out very bad, though.
Beyond that I seem to be completely unable to word my thoughts on this, even though I've spent the last five minutes trying to do so. Hmm.
I would probably be horrible as a Jedi...
Originally posted by Lord Melkor
On the other hand, how can someone that has no understanding of attachment know how to deal with them, and with regard to normal people who develop them a lot? Also, I am sure most younglings felt attached to each other and Masters, so they had kind of family.
Jedi are encouraged to feel affection for all others (one of several facts put across in film which absolutely torpedoes this EU idea that Jedi are meant to reject emotion. That and that not a single Jedi in the films ever acts in an emotionless way. Gah!).
They simply won't form such attachments. They are brought up to never do so.
Originally posted by Lord MelkorHmm, and Obi Wan seemed to be quite attached to Qui Gon. But I guess Jedi aren't supposed to feel that death is something bad...not sure if I am talking EU here though.
On the other hand, how can someone that has no understanding of attachment know how to deal with them, and with regard to normal people who develop them a lot? Also, I am sure most younglings felt attached to each other and Masters, so they had kind of family.
But he wasn't obsessed with Qui-Gon. He grieved and moved on. That's healthy, that's normal, that's a normal functioning emotional being.
The attachment that is forbidden for a Jedi is very different- it is the selfish attachment that becomes more important than anything else. The attachment you become afraid to lose- and hence the attachment you become willing to do anything at all to keep.
Again, GL has a lot to answer for here in not making this clear actually in the filmn.
Originally posted by UshgarakDoes he speak about it like that in inteviews?
But he wasn't obsessed with Qui-Gon. He grieved and moved on. That's healthy, that's normal, that's a normal functioning emotional being.The attachment that is forbidden for a Jedi is very different- it is the selfish attachment that becomes more important than anything else. The attachment you become afraid to lose- and hence the attachment you become willing to do anything at all to keep.
Again, GL has a lot to answer for here in not making this clear actually in the filmn.
Still, I don`t think that every Jedi having a spouse will go dark like Anakin. There were many unhealthy elements there, including Palpatine`s manipulations.
Still, even if some of them would go dark, I see why the Council has adapted the system seen in PT. In the EU before the KOTOR period, they accepted trainees as teengers, and many of them turned to Darkside. Going by PT cannon, there are no Darksiders among the Jedi, so dooku was a huge shock.
Jedi are taught to let go.. Obi-Wan cared for Padme as a friend meaning that those kind of attachments can occur, the very same as Obi vewed Anakin as his brother. When Obi-Wan left Anakin on Mustafar to die, it killed him to see his Padawan partner and friend like that, but as all Jedi do, Obi ws resigned to the fact that Ani was a loss, therefore he let go of his feelings of wanting to rush down and drag him from the Lava, instead just looked at the monster Anakin had become.
Originally posted by Bardock42
Does he speak about it like that in inteviews?
Indeee he does. For example, on Anakin:
"He turns into Darth Vader because he gets attached to things. He can’t let go of his mother; he can’t let go of his girlfriend. He can’t let go of things. It makes you greedy. And when you’re greedy, you are on the path to the dark side, because you fear you’re going to lose things, that you’re not going to have the power you need."
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And according to GL, Melkor, pretty much, yes, all Jedi with spouses would fall. The whole value of a marriage is the extra attachment you give to your partner- attachment that simply is too much danger for a Jedi. Ok so probably not literally ALL of them, but clearly far too high a risk.